Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[Pegasus747]

QCCA

QCCA is a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas Airways Limited. There is no partnership between this company and MAM or any other organisation. The listed directors are Peter Gregg and Geoff Dixon who are directors of QAL.


The LH officials insisted that the EBA contain a clause that ensures that swap arrangements between LH/SH remain and that any SH crew that come to long Haul get the same pay and conditions as current crew. Which is more than was done by SH when their EBA denied long haul crew the more lucrative bands payments

[indamiddle]

long term

everyone needs to consider the long term and how it affects each individual.
if u are retiring in the next 5 years or so it is a great deal and no real changes unless you intend to fly regional (shorter slips) or A380 (220-240 hours).
if u have a significant time beyond 5 years to retirement then seniority will be boosted, 'b'
scale crew will outnumber crew and reasonably carry the vote in faaa elections and eba negotiations will be in their control. who can tell if they will be kind or not to 'a' scale crew but i wouldn't bet a beach house on it.
if u haven't been to a meeting yet, go.
think about your future.

[Pegasus747]

the point that indamiddle raises is a most valid one...all FAAA members should attend a union meeting ask questions and listen to the comprehensive briefing.

BA introduced a "B" scale about 12 years ago in order to protect existing jobs and continue recruitment. Cathay have had it with Pilots for many years , auto workers in the USA have done it and so did the ASU with QF ground staff in 1996. Its not a unique thing that FAAA members have asked there officials to consider.

As far as being outnumbered i think that we collectively will work to improve the new entrants pay and conditions over the years. There is no evidence in any of the other places where new entry rates have been introduced that has led to some sort of unbalanced revolt by new ppl over time.

Just as the current crew have not tried to get rid of those on Division 1 super which is better than all of ours neither will the new crew. If they were on a separate EBA and not connected to us there might be problems.

But under the one EBA we will all be in it together and rather than the new ppl being overseas where we cant do anything for them, they will be part of our eba and we will be able to work to help them improve their conditions

[equity38]

nite walker

i attended the FAAA meeting last friday, and there was certainly no shouting down of anyone, far from it, quite the opposite.

MM made a point of saying all questions should be asked and all questions would be answered irrespective of how long the meeting went.

It was also quite clear there were several people there who were determined to make quite silly points, almost as if they wanted to disrupt things. One guy suggested to MM that the overseas based crew numbers should be increased!! Do you believe that??

When MM asked him for alternatives this guy got very irritated. So it was not MM who prevented anyone asking questions or putting their view.

Mijatov also said anyone who believes this is a bad EBA should vote against it.

I think nite walker should go to an FAAA meeting rather than relying on nonsense from others about something that did not happen.

4 of my friends went on various days last week as well. They all said how well MM ran the meetings and they were impressed about the detail he went into.

Like the anonymous email that is being spread against the EBA i think the same people are coming on here now and spreading nonsense about MM, SR and the FAAA.

[ruffrider747]

protecting short haulers

good on ya pegasus 747 at least the long haul union have some decency, not only did short haul union fleece long haulers of their flying they punished them further by classing them as new entrants giving them substantially less band payments then their short haul collegues. Now they short haul are up in arms what hypocracy!!!!It shows Long Haul union has principles. Short Haul Union didnt even bother rectifying this in the last eba because quite frankly they didnt give a toss about long haulers they never have, I say good on you long haulers get back what is rightfully yours and vote this eba up nothing wrong with asking or being suspicious but at least ask the union and get the facts

[call button]

Ruffrider

Just remember that more than half of shorthaul are ex-longhaulers, and thus made up a large percentage of those voting in the last EBA.

Its good to know that shorthaul can transfer to longhaul on 'A Scale' conditions, but I wonder how many transfers the company will allow.

Can anyone tell me how many hours part time longhaul FA's have to work per bid period.

[alpine57]

Bad Joke

The people behind the anonymous email are Leanne Dalton, Mark Cooper and a few others. Apparently, Gregg Broom and Troy Warner are also part of the same group trying to stir the pot over the new EBA.

Geez imagine that sorry lot negotiating for us...... f*****g frightening!

No wonder the crap they are spreading is anonymous - its so silly and if they came out publicly they would be laughed at.

[nite walker]

Alpine, you have named people responsible for an anonymous email, if i were one of those people named and i had not been involved i would not be too happy with you. You talk about spreading ridiculous emails, how ridiculous is yours when i know one name you mentioned was not an author of the document. How do I know, I asked him and he told me.
This isnt the first time names have been mentioned on here and the accusation has been way off the mark.
I do agree with your comment and other peoples any document for or against this EBA giving information, advice or otherwise should be signed. Waste of time writing it if it isnt signed!
Alpine a word of advice dont use peoples names on here unless what that person has been referred to is on the public record - in other words it did happen, there were several witnesses and it is FACT!!!!!!! not hearsay, not rumour, not wishful thinking.
Do the right thing and retract / delete their names! When you ask them ask if you can use their names, if they say no ask why???

[alpine57]

nite walker

im not retracting anything...i have an email that has been spread by Mark Cooper , that starts with Leanne Dalton asking Mark Cooper to spread the address to this crap that is being poster on TUF07.*************

Heaps of other crew have it as well.

Nite walker is only too happy to spread lies about Mijatov supposedly shouting at people at meetings, but is very defensive of actual emails being spread by the people i named.

Very defensive...i wonder why?????????

[Pegasus747]

i am not so much interested in who is spreading information via anonymous emails, i am more interested in WHY?

i think that the EBA is extremely good under the circumstances and in the light of what we are facing

[nite walker]

Alpine, fair enough if you have an email trail that is proof these people are passing it around, it doesnt mean they wrote it.
My earlier post stated MM gets very animated at times. Listen Alpine i have seen MM with my own eyes on many occassions and he has a way of running a meeting which can be intimidating for many, being told you dont know what you are talking about because you persue a different point of view is not an appropriate response. I dont think i am Robinson Caruso holding this point of view.
Alpine i am a supporter of neither side, im like many others trying to evaluate all the info and make the right decision.

[Guardian1]

nite walker

nite walker i have seen MM on many more occasions than you...i can assure you of that

He has never told any member at any meeting "you dont know what you are talking about".

Don't allow your prejudices to concoct observations that have never occurred. He (MM) is passionate a quality and trait that is too often lacking in most elected people.

Don't get confused nite walker ... MM challenges people who assert fantasy...he asks for alternatives from those who put forward fantasy...
it is easy for those who have no alternatives... to spread stories.. that they felt "intimidated".

It is a fact, that individuals when confronted by someone who is knowledgeable, and who disagrees with them, often resort to claiming they are "intimidated".

I know MM, he doesn't mind differences of viewpoint.... but what he does mind..is individuals who deliberately mislead or who would lead 3000 people to disaster if their zany, fanciful views were ever to be implemented.

[AlphaLord]

The Equation

There are three factors to the current Equation
1. The EBA itself
2.The people of integrity, intelligence and passion who negotiated the EBA
3.The cowardly buffoons of no character,no alternative and no substance who ,for their own petty agenda are seeking to undermine the EBA
Those in the third facet dont want you to know their names.Once you know their names you will treat them with the contempt they deserve.These are sad angry lonely people who want things their way.They bear grudges for having been shown to be thoroughly inept in their negotiation of the previous EBA.These are yesterdays people whose egos are damaged by their own stupidity.
Are you frightened by their vacuous plot of misinformation?Then you are part of the minority of crew who are not clever enough to know when they have been handed a gift.
Its always exciting to be involved in making a decision but you first need all the truth and all the facts.Sort out what is important and what is not.
Show some strength of character and independence and arrive at your own decision.Dont let some dysfunctional ego make the decision for you because you cant be bothered to attend a meeting or make a phone call.
MM SR and Co.derive no material gain from all this other than the satisfaction that they gain from knowing that they fought the good fight and achieved an excellent outcome.
Passion,hardwork,integrity and intelligence on the part of the FAAA have brought us to where we are.
Dont let the small barking dogs take you to another place of despair and failure.Thats where they already reside.Misery rejoices in its own company....for a little while

[ruffrider747]

Im n ot afraid to say I like MM and his team

i totally agree MM is a saviour to you guys wake up and smell the coffee he will always answer your calls i have found him to be reliable and answer my calls personally, I am not even CONNECTED WITH THIS union i am an outside observer who was once amongst your ranks, lets say i was born a long hauler and am very loyal to the good people from long haul.Listen to this team and get the facts you are indeed lucky with what his team has done for you.
ps agree with everything you say Alphalord

[ruffrider747]

half the members are longhaulers

Call button,
most of the long haulers feel the same as you guys, I say once a longhauler always a long hauler, we understand your world.It was 'apparantly' the brisbane and melbourne based old TAA hosties that voted those last two eba's in having no regard for long haul glad to steel their flying and allow them to be paid less;they have always envied long haulers, two different worlds. You have a great culture over there and at least MM is trying to salvage it and at the same time he even has allowed short haul to transfer without penalising them, you can't say Short Haul has done that, they really could'nt care less about long haul.It's a shame they feel that way.
If this gets voted down I know the Short haul union will say oh we'll do whatever you want give us regional and A380 we'll do it for much less and we won't even ask for the fine print!!!

[indamiddle]

ruffrider, you are so right, those ex longhaulers in shorthaul will shaft us. only current longhaulers have any integrity
just joking! ....everyone is out to protect their own nether regions, so could we please stop pretending either short or longhaul have any rights to the moral high ground. this is about survival for the next five years and no further

[mrpaxing]

i still think

all those "old domestic boilers" lining up to do the swan song in longhaul should go to the bottom of the senority list. don't need their attitude in LH

[qfcabin]

The TUF07 anonymous email reads as if someone who has no understanding of the current offer had a few round midnight and slurred their way to the keyboard. What a disgrace!

[DEFCON4]

More Pertinent Info

10 December 2007


Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
FAAA EBA VIII IN - PRINCIPLE AGREEMENT - SUMMARY
EBA DOCUMENT DETAILS

1. 5 year EBA
2. The EBA 8 Document is a comprehensive document that consolidates all previous EBA's into one document
3. It is divided into 3 parts
4. Part A applies to all Long Haul Crew -current and new entrants
5. Chapter 1 - applies only to current long haul crew
6. Chapter 2 - applies to all new entrants
Please note ALL new crew will be employed under this same EBA (EBA 8)

PAY INCREASES AND HOURS

1. 3% per annum
2. $3000 sign on Bonus
3. No increase in hours for current crew
4. Salary Sacrifice for Compulsory Superannuation contributions for Division 1, 2 and 3. Division 6 already has this ability. (An effective ongoing pay rise of between 1.2% to 2.3% depending on classification and QF Super Division).
5. Extension of Salary Sacrifice to all long haul crew -Novated lease on motor vehicles, laptop computers and childcare
6. Minimum Company Superannuation contribution for new employees in accumulation funds (division 6) will be increased from 9% to 10%
7. London free upgradeable ticket continues for those who have not used it.

GROWTH AND JOB SECURITY

1. A planned extra 2000 new Australian jobs into L/H, 1039 of these into the "Mohican" pool.
2. 550 extra new Australian jobs into the "Mohican" pool alone by June 2008.
3. Up to 80 CSM and 160 CSS promotional positions imminent for existing L/H crew
4. Extra crew member on 747's with Premium Economy class.
5. Transfer out of BNE and MEL bases to SYD and MEL will now be possible.

FLYING / AIRCRAFT AND OVERSEAS CAP

1. The FAAA has secured the continuation of the overseas cap at 870 or 25%, which provides for guaranteed growth in onshore new hires if Qantas wishes to increase the overseas establishment.
2. Restrictions on promotions overseas maintained except for the London Base
3. All new internationally configured wide bodied aircraft operated by Qantas Airways will be flown by crew covered by EBA 8. In terms of new aircraft orders this applies to the 787 Dreamliner Aircraft.
4. Currently, Long Haul crew are guaranteed 30% of the flexible flying pool "regional flying" and Short Haul 25% with the Company able to choose where the remaining 45% is allocated.
5. The FAAA has secured Qantas' 45% of the flexible flying pool for the Long Haul division on top of the 30%, which effectively gives Long Haul crew 75% of regional flying. International flying is now back where it logically belongs.
6. Continued exclusive access to one London flight per day excluding A380

BIDDING SYSTEM

1. The bidding system in its current form will continue to apply to existing crew.
2. New entrants will either be assigned to A380 or to Current Long Haul flying. Their rosters will ONLY be constructed and assigned after existing long haul crew have bid for work. Flying will NOT be withdrawn for the new entrants, and slots on aircraft will NOT be withdrawn and reserved for the new crew. This will have the effect that current junior crew at the bottom of the seniority list, will if the new EBA is approved, have all new crew coming in underneath them.

A380 OPERATIONS

1. Current long haul cabin crew will be able to apply to fly on the A380 aircraft. Crew flying A380 will only fly that aircraft and will work under Part 2 work rules which essentially mirror the London Base work rules.
2. During start up (4 aircraft) Qantas has agreed that 100% of CSM and CSS positions and 20% of other categories can be filled from the ranks of suitable current crew who apply for these positions with selection on merit.
3. Applicants will have the option to return to current aircraft after 2 years on the A380, or to remain on the A380. Returns after the 2 year period will be subject to operational requirements.
4. Current long haul crew will continue to have ongoing access to the A380 after the first 4 aircraft on the following basis - Promotion on merit to CSS and CSM vacancies and lateral transfers to all categories, subject to a 20% cap per category
5. All current crew who work on the A380 will work under A380 Pay and work rules and receive a TOP UP PAYMENT, on an ONGOING basis.
6. A380 Top up pay per fortnight for current long haul crew who choose to fly A380 is as follows, CSM $537.84, CSS $694.35, F/A $1167.39 ( all subject to 3% increases per annum as per the EBA)First 3% from 18th December 2007 already included. Flight attendant rate is higher because the CSM/CSS A380 pay rates are much closer to existing pay rates.

NEW EMPLOYEES AND A380 CONDITIONS

1. Will be covered by part 2 of EBA8
2. Fair share roster (no bid system)
3. 220 average divisor - Maximum 240 planned hours per roster (56 days)
4. Annual Salary CSM $70000, CSS $55000, FA $33475 Training $27810 ( all subject to the 3% p.a. increases from the EBA for 5 years) First 3% from 18 December 2007 already included
5. Overtime x 2 > 12 hours, Overtime x 2.5 > 14 hours
6. Incidental Allowance per flight block hour operated - $2.60 per hour
7. Higher Duties paid at appropriate rate for sectors operated
8. Meal Allowances and Accommodation as per Current Long Haul Crew
9. Sick/Carers leave - 10 days in 1st year, 15 days from second year fully cumulative
10. Bereavement leave as per policy
11. Long Service leave as per current long haul crew in part 1


COMMITMENTS ON COMPULSORY REDUNDANCY AND JOB PROTECTION

1. In the event of Compulsory Redundancy, current employees and new entrants will be treated as one pool and reverse order of seniority will be applied (a last on first off principle). This entrenches job security protection for existing crew.
2. The current Redundancy payment benefits are included in the EBA and will apply to both existing crew and new entrants
3. Overseas based crew will share any burden of Compulsory Redundancy

COMMITMENTS ON PART TIME

1. Existing crew will have unrestricted access to part- time in all categories.
2. Will be subject to phasing in based on recruitment of new crew to facilitate the release for part-time.
3. Company is offering permanent part-time.
4. Once part-time is selected then a flight attendant can only return to full time on a swap basis with another crew member in the same category wishing to become part-time, except for compassionate reasons and approval through the Alternate Employment Committee process.
5. P/T's on reserve will now have only half the number of 'A" days on their roster (19 instead of 38).

CHOICE OF SUPERANNUATION FUNDS

1. The EBA will reflect the ability of crew to nominate a super fund other than the Qantas Superannuation scheme which will be the default scheme where no alternate is chosen.

SLIPPING FORMULA

1. The current provisions of the EBA in relation to planned slips will remain for all patterns other than regional flying.

REGIONAL FLYING

1. In order to secure the regional flying, we had to ensure that we matched as close as possible the flexibility of the crew currently doing the flying.
2. The short haul crew do not have a planned slipping formula; they only have minimum rest provisions.
3. Whilst our current minimum rest provisions will continue to apply, we have devised a regional slipping formula to deal with minimum planned rest.
4. Regional Flying will be defined as, that flying east and west of Sydney with no more than 3 hours time change.
5. Maximum 6 day pattern
6. Minimum Planned rest in 3 slips standing alone is 50 hours

PAY PROTECTION

1. Other than bereavement leave, pay protection will be based on a rolling 42 day window exclusive of leave for recovery by the Company
2. The one assignment rule continues to apply
3. Flying line holders will no longer be able to be placed on "stand-by" as a result of pay protection.


FLIGHT DUTY LIMITATIONS

1. Single Sector (with horizontal crew rest) can be planned to 18 hours in unplanned to 20 hours. This is to take into account newer aircraft and new routes flown with different constraints due to flight times and loading of aircraft etc.
2. Multi Sector- unplanned extension to 20 hours without the requirement of the crew to vote, however, minimum rest and duty hours will be recalculated.
3. This recalculation means that if a flight is planned at 13 hours or less and is delayed, a recalculation will occur at 14 hours. If a flight is planned at more than 13 hours and a delay occurs, a recalculation will occur at 14' 30'. These recalculations mean that a flight attendant will get the additional duty hour credits (more money). At the moment crew only get the overtime over 12 hours but not additional duty hour credits.


MATERNITY LEAVE

1. Period of maternity leave will be increased from 52 to 104 weeks.
2. Period of paid maternity leave will be increased from 10 to 12 weeks.


ENTRENCHMENT INTO THE EBA FOR THE FIRST TIME OF OTHER KEY CONDITIONS

1. 1983 Meal Agreement/ Allowances incorporated into EBA.
2. LSL entitlement incorporated into EBA.

OTHER

1. Flying Line Holder cannot be now assigned a Standby when pay protected (roster stability).
2. Flight attendants with 4 years service and 2 years service can now apply for CSM and CSS positions respectively.




LEGAL ADVICE BY JIM NOLAN
Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional Standards Legislation

Flight Attendants Association - Long Haul Division - Proposed 2008 Qantas EBA

[1] This advice addresses some of the legal issues which arose in the course of the negotiations for,
and the settlement of, the proposed 2008 EBA. The agreement had to be negotiated against the
background of the WorkChoices legislation which places significant impediments in the way of adopting
many of the agreement clauses which had been in former agreement. Importantly, these applied to
conditions such as the use of overseas bases, the 'cap' on staff numbers engaged out of those bases, staff
numbers and work guarantees, the employment of new employees, and union participation and
consultation. Equally importantly, many of these restrictions are unlikely to be removed or substantially
amended by the incoming Labor government.

[2] In addition to the express restrictions in the Workplace Relations Act (1996) introduced by the
2006 WorkChoices legislation, the decision of the High Court of Australia in Electrolux Home Products Pty Ltd v Australian Workers' Union [2005] 221 CLR 309 also marked a narrowing of the scope of the subject mater which could be contained in certified agreements.

[3] A key feature of the Work Choices legislation is the prohibition against any restriction upon the
engagement of labour via contractors or 'labor hire'. This restriction is expected to be maintained in any
new Labor legislation. This places an effective prohibition upon the capacity of unions to have any control
over the engagement of labour via contractors or 'labor hire' included in a certified agreement.

[4] Finally, there was the very real issue/threat of Qantas engaging its entire new staff via a subsidiary
company to work on new aircraft under AWAs - or under a so called 'Greenfields Agreement'. Note that
the legislation provides that a (spectacularly mis-described) 'Greenfields Agreement' can be made by an
employer with itself! - i.e. no union or employee involvement - and no 'agreement' in the ordinary sense
of that word - prior to the employment any new employees in a start up enterprise.

[5] Qantas could do these things so without reference to the Qantas award and in a manner which
would, for practical purposes, shut out any possibility for union representation for these new employees.
It should also be remembered that these AWAs [or a Greenfields Agreement] could be made for 5 years and
that any new legislation would 'grandfather' any AWAs [or Greenfields Agreement] in existence. Although
there may have been some theoretical scope to challenge a Greenfields Agreement, the legal costs and
delay entailed and other legal technicalities would have meant that for practical purposes, any such
agreement would have been impossible to pre-empt. There is a very persuasive view however, that
Qantas could have made a valid Greenfields Agreement: Brunel Technical Services Offshore Pty Ltd Bayu - Darwin Pipeline Agreement 2004 [PR950406].

The Separate Employer for New Long Haul Flight Attendants

[6] As FAAA members will now be aware, a new company has been established to hire new Qantas long
haul employees - Qantas Cabin Crew Australia ['QCCA']. It will be a party to the proposed agreement.
This expedient has been adopted because the legal restrictions are such that the pay scale for new employees could not be included in any agreement where this conflicted with the provisions of the
existing Qantas award. The award cannot be varied because of the extraordinary complexity of the
WorkChoices amendments.

[7] It should be remembered that Qantas was at liberty to establish a subsidiary company to employ
Flight attendants and that it could do so on AWAs. It had already done so with the creation of Jetstar and
could have done so again. Alternatively, as I have already observed, it could - arguably - have created a
'Greenfields Agreement' and thus pre-empted any probable removal of, or restrictions upon, AWAs by the
incoming labor government.

[8] Faced with these alternatives, in all the circumstances it was judged that a single collective,
union agreement between the FAAA, on the one hand, and the two companies - and Qantas and ACCA, on
the other - was the much preferable choice. The Workplace Relations Act (1996) allows for the making of
a single, collective, union agreement with two companies which are related companies in a similar
enterprise. Qantas and ACCA qualify as such.

[9] The collective, union agreement provides very real and significant advantages for all employees -
including the new employees albeit that the starting rates of pay for those new employees are less than
those provided under present long haul award rates. First and foremost it gives legitimacy to union
organisation at the workplace, and assists in cementing collective rights in the workplace. It provides for
a single uniform standard for grievance resolution. New employees will also receive conditions of
employment superior to JetStar AWAs and better than those which would likely have been offered under
AWAs (or any 'Greenfields Agreement'). Examples of these conditions will be distributed to FAAA
members.

Overseas Bases

[10] As indicated above, the previous clause which placed limitations upon Qantas' ability to engage
labor through overseas bases offends the 'prohibited matters' provisions of the WRA [Reg 8.5(1) (h) & (i)
(Labour Hire, etc.). Even if it is arguable that some provision may be made for staff numbers - limited
to direct employees in a workplace agreement - any such restriction would be easily avoided by recourse
to the engagement of 'labour hire' workers. It should be noted however, that a prescription of staffing
numbers which places a direct or implied restriction upon the capacity of the employer to engage labor
through labor hire or contractors would be invalid.

Restrictions on Union Activity

[11] A range of amendments to union activity under the agreement has been necessary because of the
WRA. These restrictions fall into two broad categories. The first is that the existing clause confers a
benefit on a union member arguably at the expense of a non union member. An example of this would be
in the disciplinary clause where an employee was formerly entitled to be represented by a union
representative, whereas a non union member was not entitled to any separate representation. The second was where a benefit was arguably conferred on the Union itself - for example, leave bank. This
second category was contrary to the decision in the Electrolux case.

[12] A number of amendments have had to be made to take into account these restrictions and
prohibitions. Two examples are disputes and discipline. The proposed disputes settlement clause follows
more closely the current 'model' clause in the WRA. Importantly, however, it retains an arbitration power
for the AIRC. This is the critical feature of any such clause: see s692 WRA. The discipline clause has also
been amended to eliminate arguably 'prohibited content' in the present clause. Ultimately, disputes
about disciplinary matters can also be put to the AIRC under the new disputes settlement clause.

[13] I hope that this advice gives a brief but necessary indication of some of the very significant legal
issues facing Flight Attendants and the FAAA in the EBA negotiations.


Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov - Secretary International Division

[Bad Hat Harry]

On Balance

A damn sight more positives than negatives.
A lot of of LCC carriers are going to have trouble recruiting with an EBA like this.It is likely that all LCCs will source their employees from offshore compounding the already crap reputation that these carriers have.
Sorry to all those offshore individuals who may intend working for LCCs.No offense intended.
A balance and opportunity for Australians to have a Crew job on acceptable salaries in their own country.I suspect the attrition rate in the AKL base to further escalate exponentially