Jetstar Engine Failure?!?!?!
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"Propulsion system reliability is the most vital aspect of ETOPS and must be sufficient to ensure that the probability of a double engine failure from independent causes is lower than defined limits (this requirement
establishes a maximum In-Flight Shutdown (IFSD) rate of 0.02/1000
engine hours for 180-minute ETOPS)."
establishes a maximum In-Flight Shutdown (IFSD) rate of 0.02/1000
engine hours for 180-minute ETOPS)."
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And to "Condition Lever". Most people who hang their hats on statistics & probability are working for the Weather Bureau- and how often are they right????? There is no place in Aviation for the sort of crap that Airbus chortle out to back up their products. I recall they used the same ammunition when they decided to make the A320 a 2 man cockpit design. I suggest rather than digesting the garbage put forward by Airbus you read the book "Fate is the Hunter".
The Reverend
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I recall they used the same ammunition when they decided to make the A320 a 2 man cockpit design.
Boeing designed and built the 767 for a 2 man flight deck, as they have the 777. 3 man cockpits died with the 747 Classics, together with flight engineers.
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A Q to the A330 pilots whom know the roots 
Sorry for quoting my own quote...
The reason I asked this question is did the crew look for the nearest alternate or the nearest Jet* airport. The aircraft flew for 1 hour on 1 donk.
If you are 1 hour past DPS do you turn round and fly back or is DRW a better alternate..
If you are 1 hour before DPS on the BKK - MEL route do you have better alternates in CGK SIN as both would be better equipped airports for maintenance and emergency landing.
I am not criticizing the crew just wondering if they were thinking outside the square when they chose their diversion port???? Or do they not carry charts for airports not in the Jet * Int network?
A bit surprised the divert went to DPS. The aircraft could be there a while/days, while parts are sourced and shipped to destination. Looks like the Jet* star crew are going to get a Bali layover after all but at what lengths
The reason I asked this question is did the crew look for the nearest alternate or the nearest Jet* airport. The aircraft flew for 1 hour on 1 donk.
If you are 1 hour past DPS do you turn round and fly back or is DRW a better alternate..
If you are 1 hour before DPS on the BKK - MEL route do you have better alternates in CGK SIN as both would be better equipped airports for maintenance and emergency landing.
I am not criticizing the crew just wondering if they were thinking outside the square when they chose their diversion port???? Or do they not carry charts for airports not in the Jet * Int network?
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All charts for all airports carried.
I don't know at what point the failure occurred - and thus what airport would be the best choice, however DPS has QF maint and J* ground handling/reps, and the parts for that aircraft arrived the evening the aircraft landed.
I don't know at what point the failure occurred - and thus what airport would be the best choice, however DPS has QF maint and J* ground handling/reps, and the parts for that aircraft arrived the evening the aircraft landed.
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wilbur quote:-
From my boating days red light was port side, green light starboard side.
To help me remember this as a lad the phrase " a little bit of red port left" was taught to me.
The RAT comes out of a flap canoe on the wing with the green light on the end
If the green hydraulic circuit was out then a RAM AIR TURBINE would drop out of the port wing flap canoe and supply 3.5 KVA 115/200 volt 400 hertz power.
To help me remember this as a lad the phrase " a little bit of red port left" was taught to me.
The RAT comes out of a flap canoe on the wing with the green light on the end
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For your info HotDog , the 767 was designed as either 3 man or 2 man flight deck, customer choice. Many ,many many debates over 2 versus 3 man up front , which is safer etc etc , all inconclusive..... it boils down to so called "Technological advances" & the endless manufacturer greed to produce products that are supposed to be "better than the last one". Whether its Aircraft or TV sets, its the same end result.
Thats why your new Plasma TV looks so great when you buy it , then its a throw away item after 18 months because it cant be repaired, no parts & nobody around to carry out repairs. Its exactly the same now for Aeroplanes!!!!!!! My own opinion is that Technology changes are getting out of hand, to the point of absurdity!!!!!! Bring back the Golden Years of Aviation- 1960's 1970's & most of 1980's !!!!!!!!!
Thats why your new Plasma TV looks so great when you buy it , then its a throw away item after 18 months because it cant be repaired, no parts & nobody around to carry out repairs. Its exactly the same now for Aeroplanes!!!!!!! My own opinion is that Technology changes are getting out of hand, to the point of absurdity!!!!!! Bring back the Golden Years of Aviation- 1960's 1970's & most of 1980's !!!!!!!!!
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As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) the only three man 767 was the Ansett variant. I was in Seattle doing my 747 conversion when the 767 specs were released and there were no 3 man cockpit models envisaged at the time. The only reason Boeing went along with the ridiculous Ansett requirement because they were anxious for the sale. The function of the flight engineer on Ansett's 767s , was extremely limited but it kept the unions happy.
Just found this blog on Airliners Net:
Basically in a NUT shell, the first 5 original 767-277s delivered to Ansett in 1983-84 were delivered with 3 person crewed flight decks, which included an engineers station. These were the only 767s to be delivered this way. When Ansett's 767 order was placed, AFAP (Australian Federation of Air Pilots) and AAFEA (Australian Airline Flight Engineers Association) insisted that their aircraft be operated by two pilots and an engineer. Eventually all 5 were converted into standard a standard two pilot cockpit by the time Ansett went out of business.
Just found this blog on Airliners Net:
Basically in a NUT shell, the first 5 original 767-277s delivered to Ansett in 1983-84 were delivered with 3 person crewed flight decks, which included an engineers station. These were the only 767s to be delivered this way. When Ansett's 767 order was placed, AFAP (Australian Federation of Air Pilots) and AAFEA (Australian Airline Flight Engineers Association) insisted that their aircraft be operated by two pilots and an engineer. Eventually all 5 were converted into standard a standard two pilot cockpit by the time Ansett went out of business.
Last edited by HotDog; 25th Jul 2007 at 08:28.
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Condition lever , Thanks for your reply and yes I’m familiar with ETOPS.
The point I was trying to make though is that statistics in certain cases are largely academic.
As Disraeli reportedly said …‘There are lies, damn lies - and statistics.’
In the safety of a warm house and sipping a nice wine statistics are great but as you are gliding down to the water you can make a PA (if you have enough power) and tell the pax how unlucky they are and that they have made the record books.
The point I was trying to make though is that statistics in certain cases are largely academic.
As Disraeli reportedly said …‘There are lies, damn lies - and statistics.’
In the safety of a warm house and sipping a nice wine statistics are great but as you are gliding down to the water you can make a PA (if you have enough power) and tell the pax how unlucky they are and that they have made the record books.
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Have only skimmed the last few pages; seems the U/S APU is almost a distraction to the real question of appropriate crew action in the real world.
Firstly we can discard any statistics - this was actually happening so lets deal with real lives rather than theoretical.
One question, one answer: one engine, the largest/longest piece of suitable bitumen with appropriate approach aids as required by WX etc.
IF it happens to be preferential for the company then that's a bonus - that is NOT, and never should be,anything but the lowest basis for the decision.
If the aircraft is in one piece, on the ground somewhere, and you can write reports about it all then not too much to bitch about really!!
I will happily acknowledge a substantial fudge factor regarding identifying, dealing with, considering consequences, considering options, advising those who should/need to be advised (it's all about the CRM you idiot!!!
) etc that MAY at times allow a better result for all.
Condition Lever - not having a go but could have improved your post by stating/inferring "as a bonus Bali does have support...", the way you worded it sounded like a company/management statement which I'm sure wasn't the intent.
Nice to know about all the electrical backup but as was discussed with a revered training captain many moons ago -" turn off all the electrics you're dark, all the engines you"re f**ked!"
Pretty sensible when you think about it - lots can be achieved with a candle and a standby compass -oh- he did mention something about an operating engine being a bit of a bonus!
Any Captains/Commanders out there want to disagree about the nearest suitable (as above) strips of bitumen as the ONLY option, other factors incidental??
Cheers
Firstly we can discard any statistics - this was actually happening so lets deal with real lives rather than theoretical.
One question, one answer: one engine, the largest/longest piece of suitable bitumen with appropriate approach aids as required by WX etc.
IF it happens to be preferential for the company then that's a bonus - that is NOT, and never should be,anything but the lowest basis for the decision.
If the aircraft is in one piece, on the ground somewhere, and you can write reports about it all then not too much to bitch about really!!
I will happily acknowledge a substantial fudge factor regarding identifying, dealing with, considering consequences, considering options, advising those who should/need to be advised (it's all about the CRM you idiot!!!
) etc that MAY at times allow a better result for all.Condition Lever - not having a go but could have improved your post by stating/inferring "as a bonus Bali does have support...", the way you worded it sounded like a company/management statement which I'm sure wasn't the intent.
Nice to know about all the electrical backup but as was discussed with a revered training captain many moons ago -" turn off all the electrics you're dark, all the engines you"re f**ked!"
Pretty sensible when you think about it - lots can be achieved with a candle and a standby compass -oh- he did mention something about an operating engine being a bit of a bonus!
Any Captains/Commanders out there want to disagree about the nearest suitable (as above) strips of bitumen as the ONLY option, other factors incidental??
Cheers
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A330 Eng Failure
The engine shut down itself, they tried an inflight start with no luck. HMU Fuel metering valve resolver fail. ECU was replaced and engine was serviceable, no big deal.
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I go along with Red on this.
What happens SUB if the aircraft had continued onto it's destination and the "HMU Fuel metering valve resolver" failed on the ONLY OTHER engine and it shut itself down?
Would that be no big deal?
What happens SUB if the aircraft had continued onto it's destination and the "HMU Fuel metering valve resolver" failed on the ONLY OTHER engine and it shut itself down?
Would that be no big deal?
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Wibur quote:
If the green hydraulic circuit was out then a RAM AIR TURBINE would drop out of the port wing flap canoe and supply 3.5 KVA 115/200 volt 400 hertz power.
) - just a HYD pump that then runs the HYD powered EMER GEN on the green sys, so complete loss of Green fluid(say, due to that ENG failure being catastophic),along with APU inop and if the remaining engine gen or its drive failed means Batteries only and therefore 30 mins. to live.BTW, on an A330 when you lose an engine you will always lose a HYD system (Blue in this case, yellow for R. Eng Fail) so some flight control power and ALTN brakes were also lost in this incident.
Also, it seems that in this case, a single further failure i.e. loss of the R. Eng Gen and assuming the EMER GEN started OK would have left them in Emergency Electrical Config. This is a very serious thing in the Bus and includes things like freefalling the gear (no retraction allowed - great on one ENG whilst over max LDG weight!
). In EMER ELEC the aircraft would also be in direct law (flying like a normal A/C with all the pitch changes with thrust etc) - something A330 drivers are not very practiced at esp. on one eng
.In summary: Landing at the nearest suitable airport is the only thing to do. Suitable means: Open, WX OK, sufficient RWY length for the failure state, approach in the database (esp at night). It would not run to pax handling convenience, spare parts or whether the crew hotel has fluffy towels.
Well that's my two cents worth
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The FACTS
Considering there are not a few Monday morning quarterbacks/ keyboard heros in our midst......here are the facts......
Just spoke to the skipper;
FACTS
1. He was actually there....sitting in the left seat
2. The ONLY (single/as in one/1) factor in the reasoning/ decision making
process that culminated in Bali being the "nearest suitable", was 2 for 1
drinks at the Sari Club.
3. Much like the commander, the FO was a party boy and so, naturally, he
concurred.
Just the FACTS.com........gotta love the prune....
Just spoke to the skipper;
FACTS
1. He was actually there....sitting in the left seat
2. The ONLY (single/as in one/1) factor in the reasoning/ decision making
process that culminated in Bali being the "nearest suitable", was 2 for 1
drinks at the Sari Club.
3. Much like the commander, the FO was a party boy and so, naturally, he
concurred.
Just the FACTS.com........gotta love the prune....
Last edited by LetsGoRated; 27th Jul 2007 at 01:55.
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Advisory,
A330 Green system has failsafes to ensure correct operation of RAT system .
*Reservoir has standpipe for normal system supply.
*Green System Engine Driven Pumps have supplies isolated if reservoir level drops too low.
Just for info ......
A330 Green system has failsafes to ensure correct operation of RAT system .
*Reservoir has standpipe for normal system supply.
*Green System Engine Driven Pumps have supplies isolated if reservoir level drops too low.
Just for info ......