Real Men don't go around - a fatal cultural flaw.
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This whole Sagarso(fred daggs terminolgy) has been a problem since some of you blokes were sucking on lollipops
Did a stint for JAL as an instructor in their 747 programme,the mindset was there in the mid eighties,and obviously,from what I gather,still here...(bloody howl!!!! ).....biggest complaint from the pakeha-instructors.....peer pressure,and retaliation amongst their own,and it was rampant.....
Watched a 747 skipper of 20 yrs ,land gear up in a piper one day,(in front of 80 students)...he was told to go around more than 20x.....had not closed the door properly on take-off,paniced and landed gear up.....(on the 1000ft marker though)
Company sent all instructors home for the day as we were having too much fun with this one,but the fall-out was something to behold....disgrace,demotion to F/O,etc etc......not too sure what those boys do to one another,.....but I,m sure the ol knife in the belly button was contemplated...
They do have a mindset that has to be changed.....has nothing to do with taking potshots,discrimination,malice or predudice.....just take a look at some of the "other" accidents....
Reckon it might be the "pot calling the kettle black"...but for those of us who have been "within" these institutions will tell you ...theres the side of things you see,and a side you never see...only hear about...PB
Did a stint for JAL as an instructor in their 747 programme,the mindset was there in the mid eighties,and obviously,from what I gather,still here...(bloody howl!!!! ).....biggest complaint from the pakeha-instructors.....peer pressure,and retaliation amongst their own,and it was rampant.....
Watched a 747 skipper of 20 yrs ,land gear up in a piper one day,(in front of 80 students)...he was told to go around more than 20x.....had not closed the door properly on take-off,paniced and landed gear up.....(on the 1000ft marker though)
Company sent all instructors home for the day as we were having too much fun with this one,but the fall-out was something to behold....disgrace,demotion to F/O,etc etc......not too sure what those boys do to one another,.....but I,m sure the ol knife in the belly button was contemplated...
They do have a mindset that has to be changed.....has nothing to do with taking potshots,discrimination,malice or predudice.....just take a look at some of the "other" accidents....
Reckon it might be the "pot calling the kettle black"...but for those of us who have been "within" these institutions will tell you ...theres the side of things you see,and a side you never see...only hear about...PB
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The major cultural factor which has a direct impact on multi-crew operations is the individualism/Collectivism v Power Distance dimension. This means the groups interdependence v independence and the relationship between superiors and subordinates.
Australia and Indonesia are on either end of the scale for both these dimensions. Our current TEM strategies combined with CRM countermeasure training is aimed at our own cultural deficiencies (a highly individualistic cultural with a low power distance that makes group operation difficult). You cannot apply the same logic to other counties training and you cannot view their problems using ‘Western Anglo Goggles’.
The problems these nations have with multi crew operations can be solved, but only through designing CRM training which is compatible with cultural differences and that doesn't try to replicate a Western Anglo cultural stereo type.
Australia and Indonesia are on either end of the scale for both these dimensions. Our current TEM strategies combined with CRM countermeasure training is aimed at our own cultural deficiencies (a highly individualistic cultural with a low power distance that makes group operation difficult). You cannot apply the same logic to other counties training and you cannot view their problems using ‘Western Anglo Goggles’.
The problems these nations have with multi crew operations can be solved, but only through designing CRM training which is compatible with cultural differences and that doesn't try to replicate a Western Anglo cultural stereo type.
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Will964.....you are right...no argument here.....
The problem with your approach is that all their training,CRM,flying,and training is/was designed through your"Weatern Goggles" theory.....and Idont make the rules....just follow them....
As an example,because of insurance problems in the early days...JAL was required to have "western pilots' in the cockpit,who had heavy time.....JAL tired on many occassions to Nationalize their airline......for obvious reasons,(and Ihave seen them)they werent able to....the situation now has improved,due to your "Western goggles theory".
Maybe I,m reading your post wrong......but culture in the cockpit,seems to be alive and well......but to my thinking,CRM,GA,S....etc.....whether it be in Asia,Europe,downunder,State side.....is basically the same....do your job and do it well....
Have done a couple of contracts in Asia.....its an eyeopener,for us Western types for sure.......my Goggels got steamed up on several occasions...
Culture has its place,no argument.....but flying Aircraft,is flying aircraft
PB
The problem with your approach is that all their training,CRM,flying,and training is/was designed through your"Weatern Goggles" theory.....and Idont make the rules....just follow them....
As an example,because of insurance problems in the early days...JAL was required to have "western pilots' in the cockpit,who had heavy time.....JAL tired on many occassions to Nationalize their airline......for obvious reasons,(and Ihave seen them)they werent able to....the situation now has improved,due to your "Western goggles theory".
Maybe I,m reading your post wrong......but culture in the cockpit,seems to be alive and well......but to my thinking,CRM,GA,S....etc.....whether it be in Asia,Europe,downunder,State side.....is basically the same....do your job and do it well....
Have done a couple of contracts in Asia.....its an eyeopener,for us Western types for sure.......my Goggels got steamed up on several occasions...
Culture has its place,no argument.....but flying Aircraft,is flying aircraft
PB
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Culture has its place,no argument.....but flying Aircraft,is flying aircraft
Many consider it is the responsibility of the organisation (carrier) to recognise and minimise their negative cultural aspects whist emphasizing the positive. But in the real world, if there isn’t the pressure (either financial or regulatory) then it doesn’t happen.
I heard a worrying story from a simulator instructor conducting IFR training on overseas cadets. On final the instructor failed the altimeter near the OM. The PF immediately feathered the left engine, then selected gear up, flap up and continued the approach to a wheels up landing. When the PNF asked by the instructor why he did not warn the PF, the reply was "But he is the captain, and you never question the captain's decisions."
Within the next five years both of those cadets will most likely be captains on jet transports.
Within the next five years both of those cadets will most likely be captains on jet transports.
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Ultegra
Where the f**k have you been hiding??
Great post, insightful and true, best of the lot on this post with one addition (and apologies if it has been mentioned and I've missed it ) but in Asia AGE will trump any other concept/idea thrown up.
As you alluded what you train them to do, and what they allowed to do within their culture upon return to their homeland, is two different things.
Will964 - also a great, and sadly true, post.
A small story - worked for an asian airline, went to their "CRM" days, largely held in their own language as a "tick in the box" exercise for the reegulator.
At one session thought I'd stir the pot, mentioned most western airlines had a "CRM" pyramid or similar in their Ops Manual so any F/o had a company obligation to query the decisions of the Captain up to the point of "takng over",this simply confirmed the companies support of the F/o's legal requirement to ensure a safe operation etc blah blah blah! Where was ours???
With a steely eye I was told by the Chief Pilot (old, retired, non-operational) that it was not required and he would "talk" to the F/o's.
And that reflects the dominance of age over anything else in Asia.
As an almost in a brutal but honest analysis it wasn't the regulators or the company management who minimised killing people when dealing with airlines in Korea but insurance agencies - maybe one of the few times in history they can take a bow!
As a final-final; at least in the west the Captain is accountable, in Asia if there is ANY F/o within 100km of the aircraft at the time of the incident (prefereably a Western F/o) then he will, of course, be responsible.
Such is the Asian way!
OK - the quiz question for the night: which Asian airline had 3 Check Captains aboard a new 767 on training, one western F/o on board in a jump seat, during circuits they trashed the aircraft and who was to blame??
Obviously the western F/o! Why...? Didn't you read the make up of the crew???
Moral of Story - western pilot who comes to Asia as F/o be very, very, very careful - and then be expected to be screwed over (somehow) if something ever happens.
Regards to all.
Where the f**k have you been hiding??
Great post, insightful and true, best of the lot on this post with one addition (and apologies if it has been mentioned and I've missed it ) but in Asia AGE will trump any other concept/idea thrown up.
As you alluded what you train them to do, and what they allowed to do within their culture upon return to their homeland, is two different things.
Will964 - also a great, and sadly true, post.
A small story - worked for an asian airline, went to their "CRM" days, largely held in their own language as a "tick in the box" exercise for the reegulator.
At one session thought I'd stir the pot, mentioned most western airlines had a "CRM" pyramid or similar in their Ops Manual so any F/o had a company obligation to query the decisions of the Captain up to the point of "takng over",this simply confirmed the companies support of the F/o's legal requirement to ensure a safe operation etc blah blah blah! Where was ours???
With a steely eye I was told by the Chief Pilot (old, retired, non-operational) that it was not required and he would "talk" to the F/o's.
And that reflects the dominance of age over anything else in Asia.
As an almost in a brutal but honest analysis it wasn't the regulators or the company management who minimised killing people when dealing with airlines in Korea but insurance agencies - maybe one of the few times in history they can take a bow!
As a final-final; at least in the west the Captain is accountable, in Asia if there is ANY F/o within 100km of the aircraft at the time of the incident (prefereably a Western F/o) then he will, of course, be responsible.
Such is the Asian way!
OK - the quiz question for the night: which Asian airline had 3 Check Captains aboard a new 767 on training, one western F/o on board in a jump seat, during circuits they trashed the aircraft and who was to blame??
Obviously the western F/o! Why...? Didn't you read the make up of the crew???
Moral of Story - western pilot who comes to Asia as F/o be very, very, very careful - and then be expected to be screwed over (somehow) if something ever happens.
Regards to all.
At risk of an us and them attitude, the anti western sentiment is not just that. It is also directed at other asian countries.
The SQ media release after Taipei summed this up perfectly: "...The captain had 9000 hours flying experience and was Malaysian."
CS
The SQ media release after Taipei summed this up perfectly: "...The captain had 9000 hours flying experience and was Malaysian."
CS
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A long time ago a friend of mine ( being an airline pilot) was on a Garuda flight (prior to 9-11) and got himself invited up to the flightdeck. Once up there he chatted to the pilots and found out that the fleet manager was the Captain. He asked the usual question " How did you get into Garuda?", the answer was " I was one of the original cadets". My friend remaked that he had obviously done very well and were were the rest of his cadet course? They were all dead from accidents over the previous 25 years but they were good cadets...... 
QED
QED
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I heard a worrying story from a simulator instructor conducting IFR training on overseas cadets. On final the instructor failed the altimeter near the OM. The PF immediately feathered the left engine, then selected gear up, flap up and continued the approach to a wheels up landing. When the PNF asked by the instructor why he did not warn the PF, the reply was "But he is the captain, and you never question the captain's decisions."
Within the next five years both of those cadets will most likely be captains on jet transports
Within the next five years both of those cadets will most likely be captains on jet transports
ok, altimeter stops working, lets kill an engine, Vmc here we come!
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Will964....a professional approach on your part for sure,and the only one if we are to maintain a standard/s ,that dont care where you come from or the culture you subscribe ....
you talk of the myriad of obstacles that we all face,and when you start to mix "flying cultures" that has now forced our hands to make the standards even tougher,complex(however you want to look at it)....because to allow these cultural differences to influence saftey of flight or ops,you have now ****e in your own nest....
Do or are western influences the dominant feature here...I say they are(for obvious reasons).....and if cultural backgrounds and influences are affecting saftey...then they have no place in the cockpit as you/they have no right to be using this as an excuse to operate aircraft.....
Ispeak from experience....I was a training capt for Jal...747,s out of Moses Lake washington....theses blokes were trained in the American culture and after it was all said and done thrown back into the JAL culture and the private conversations Ihad were not pretty....and will964, these were in no way linked to the yank flying culture...it was shoved up their taiipipes by their own system.....
I get the feeling that you think the western flying culture has to change...AGREED TOTALLY......the problem lies in that no matter how much we change to (for lack of a better word)accommodate these cultures to make a more harmonius cockpit......and Ido believe most are very accommodating...the problem inherently lies within there flying culture.....and from previous accounts...it s nothing more than an uphill battle!!!
Like you,I,m as pro-active as you ....... but this is what it used to feel like...PB
you talk of the myriad of obstacles that we all face,and when you start to mix "flying cultures" that has now forced our hands to make the standards even tougher,complex(however you want to look at it)....because to allow these cultural differences to influence saftey of flight or ops,you have now ****e in your own nest....
Do or are western influences the dominant feature here...I say they are(for obvious reasons).....and if cultural backgrounds and influences are affecting saftey...then they have no place in the cockpit as you/they have no right to be using this as an excuse to operate aircraft.....
Ispeak from experience....I was a training capt for Jal...747,s out of Moses Lake washington....theses blokes were trained in the American culture and after it was all said and done thrown back into the JAL culture and the private conversations Ihad were not pretty....and will964, these were in no way linked to the yank flying culture...it was shoved up their taiipipes by their own system.....
I get the feeling that you think the western flying culture has to change...AGREED TOTALLY......the problem lies in that no matter how much we change to (for lack of a better word)accommodate these cultures to make a more harmonius cockpit......and Ido believe most are very accommodating...the problem inherently lies within there flying culture.....and from previous accounts...it s nothing more than an uphill battle!!!
Like you,I,m as pro-active as you .......
but this is what it used to feel like...PB
I have a suspicion that in an Asian airline - any Asian airline - an F/O who managed to get a Captain to go-around (against that Captain's judgement or desire), by whatever means, would in all likelihood be looking at the end of his career - or his life. Life is cheap in many parts of Asia.
I'm not optimistic that any amount of training by western training organisations will ever overcome the imperative, ingrained since birth and reinforced by nurture, for the Asian male in a position of command/responsibility/authority to "save face " at all costs.
The reality is, if Asian aircrew continue to operate heavy jets, then these sorts of accidents will have to be accepted as simply "part of the cost of doing business". Bear in mind the owners of these companies often have very close connections with governments and regulators, in relationships which in some (e.g. Western) societies would be viewed as corrupt, but which in Asian society are regarded as mere "patronage", and just "another cost of doing business".
A major accident may cause an Asian airline to shut down...but within a short time another will rise to take its place, probably established by the same principle players and with the same government officials/ministers etc granting permits/licences etc in return for the appropriate "consideration".
We'd better get used to this, because I simply don't see it changing. There is no way there will ever be such a significant cultural change, no matter how hard you drill it into pilot trainees. Bucking the system will avail them nothing but a one-way trip out the door.
I wish I could be optimistic - but the plain fact is I can't.
I'm not optimistic that any amount of training by western training organisations will ever overcome the imperative, ingrained since birth and reinforced by nurture, for the Asian male in a position of command/responsibility/authority to "save face " at all costs.
The reality is, if Asian aircrew continue to operate heavy jets, then these sorts of accidents will have to be accepted as simply "part of the cost of doing business". Bear in mind the owners of these companies often have very close connections with governments and regulators, in relationships which in some (e.g. Western) societies would be viewed as corrupt, but which in Asian society are regarded as mere "patronage", and just "another cost of doing business".
A major accident may cause an Asian airline to shut down...but within a short time another will rise to take its place, probably established by the same principle players and with the same government officials/ministers etc granting permits/licences etc in return for the appropriate "consideration".
We'd better get used to this, because I simply don't see it changing. There is no way there will ever be such a significant cultural change, no matter how hard you drill it into pilot trainees. Bucking the system will avail them nothing but a one-way trip out the door.
I wish I could be optimistic - but the plain fact is I can't.
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Did anyone hear of the B747 pilot that held for 30 minutes due to thunderstorms at the airport then landed after they cleared or the A330 pilot that stuffed up his approach and was not stabilized by 500'agl and went around for another appraoch and then landed, NO, MY F###ING PIONT EXACTLY!
AIRMANSHIP.
AIRMANSHIP.
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Ultergra wrote:
Yes, totally agree. Those from Asian countries are taught from a very young age to never question authority. You do as big brother tells you and this is instilled in them right from when they're born.
Most did, without question. When we asked them, "why didn't you click, that perhaps thats a little low..." they answered that they knew it didn't sound right, but didn't want to question it.
{snip}
It's cultural, its instilled, it's virtually impossible to change.
{snip}
It's cultural, its instilled, it's virtually impossible to change.
We'd better get used to this, because I simply don't see it changing. There is no way there will ever be such a significant cultural change, no matter how hard you drill it into pilot trainees. Bucking the system will avail them nothing but a one-way trip out the door
A year ago when I started teaching Asian cadets, I was full of ideas of how I would teach them to be assertive. I thought if I got them early enough and drilled into them the idea of challening their captain , or instructor they would develop the character needed to challenge a captain.
Sadly I have been proven wrong. Their culture of absolute deference to a superior is too instilled, its the very fundiamental of their psyche.Its evident in everything they do, even within a class, where they sit on the bus is an indicator of where they lay in the pecking order. Front seat goes to the class leader and the lower the rank the further back in the bus. The other day I picked up a back row kid first, as he was the only one i asked him to sit up front with me, the look of terror on his face said everything.
In flight, they will challenge you only in jest, the moment you cme accross as serious they will back down. Taxi out with the oil door open, cabin door open, or anything else, climb into CTA without a clearence etc, some will speak up but inveriably submit. Pointing the airvraft dirsctly at high terrain, most will say something......weakly but if you tell them to shut up, submission is quickly followed. I even manage to persuade one to take off using the apron as a runway. We had set takeoff power and had rolled a few metres before i cut the power.
When asked later why he ultimately gave in to me, he said candedly he wanted to stop me, but just couldnt bring himself to do so. Even though he knew it was patently wrong what we were going to do. Even more telling is that he said that their culture taught them from birth that their life as an individual was not important and if a superiors actions caused them to die, that is the their way.
I'm affraid, nothing is going to change in the next 10, 30 or 50 years. The only thing that will force a change is when the hull loss rate become intolerable for the insurance companies to stomach.
Sadly I have been proven wrong. Their culture of absolute deference to a superior is too instilled, its the very fundiamental of their psyche.Its evident in everything they do, even within a class, where they sit on the bus is an indicator of where they lay in the pecking order. Front seat goes to the class leader and the lower the rank the further back in the bus. The other day I picked up a back row kid first, as he was the only one i asked him to sit up front with me, the look of terror on his face said everything.
In flight, they will challenge you only in jest, the moment you cme accross as serious they will back down. Taxi out with the oil door open, cabin door open, or anything else, climb into CTA without a clearence etc, some will speak up but inveriably submit. Pointing the airvraft dirsctly at high terrain, most will say something......weakly but if you tell them to shut up, submission is quickly followed. I even manage to persuade one to take off using the apron as a runway. We had set takeoff power and had rolled a few metres before i cut the power.
When asked later why he ultimately gave in to me, he said candedly he wanted to stop me, but just couldnt bring himself to do so. Even though he knew it was patently wrong what we were going to do. Even more telling is that he said that their culture taught them from birth that their life as an individual was not important and if a superiors actions caused them to die, that is the their way.
I'm affraid, nothing is going to change in the next 10, 30 or 50 years. The only thing that will force a change is when the hull loss rate become intolerable for the insurance companies to stomach.
Last edited by Ozgrade3; 3rd Apr 2007 at 13:32.
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Sad, but true. Was upgrading a couple of senior F/Os for command on the 737 a few years back and they weren't doing too badly until we started on emergencies. Following an uncontrollable engine fire with direct tracking to the nearest suitable I put them into a holding pattern...and we went round and round and round etc without a word from either of them. Unfortunately we can't simulate wings burning off yet!