Real Men don't go around - a fatal cultural flaw.
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ahhhh
Speaking of asia as though it is a homogenous entity is like referring to all whites as europeans 
There are cultural differences and there are culture differences - one refers to upbringing the other to environment, so lets not mix the two.
The authority gradient in a cockpit is as much culture as it is cultural. The hard bit is to know which causes the other if at all.
This trade is one where ego plays a large part, just look at how we talk of ourselves - CFIT is a great example, "ahhh he may have not fcuking idea where he was but hey, he was in control all the way"
A mistake is a mistake, sometimes that's all there is to it
There are cultural differences and there are culture differences - one refers to upbringing the other to environment, so lets not mix the two.
The authority gradient in a cockpit is as much culture as it is cultural. The hard bit is to know which causes the other if at all.
This trade is one where ego plays a large part, just look at how we talk of ourselves - CFIT is a great example, "ahhh he may have not fcuking idea where he was but hey, he was in control all the way"
A mistake is a mistake, sometimes that's all there is to it
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<Quote>are you refering to there looks? values? culture? or what ?
</Quote>
1st off, its their, not there, and second, how about reading through the thread so that you get at least a misty idea of what's going on here for the last 3 days.
</Quote>
1st off, its their, not there, and second, how about reading through the thread so that you get at least a misty idea of what's going on here for the last 3 days.
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Goin Round
I always encourage my pilots to GO ROUND.
Its much cheaper than losing my aircraft, my crew and my fare paying passengers.
Its just my ego.
Oops, too many my's and I's.
Its much cheaper than losing my aircraft, my crew and my fare paying passengers.
Its just my ego.
Oops, too many my's and I's.
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Speaking of asia as though it is a homogenous entity is like referring to all whites as europeans
Having trained Chinese, Malaysians, Koreans, Singaporeans and Vietnamese...I gotta tell you Fab...they are all the same!
This phenomenon isn't exclusive to asian pilots as they are other well documented western carriers with the same accidents.The question is why are the pilots so focussed to land that they totally forgot about the unstabilised approach?Granted the asians tend to be conformist, but most of them are taught to leave those feelings at the cockpit door.
So let's take an objective look at the cases per se than just to tar all asian pilots as kamikazes.....
So let's take an objective look at the cases per se than just to tar all asian pilots as kamikazes.....
Indonesia- 32 Airframes in 10 years.
Korea- 9 Fatal jet crashes in 12 years.
Singapore- Pilot takes off on closed runway
Taiwan- Air China- speaks for itself.
The pilots are all bombarded by power distance, high cockpit gradient & other terms to make them aware of complacency & the need to voice out any deviations from SOP's especially if they are caught pants down in an unstabilised approach.
This phenomenon isn't exclusive to asian pilots as they are other well documented western carriers with the same accidents.
The question is why are the pilots so focussed to land that they totally forgot about the unstabilised approach?
but most of them are taught to leave those feelings at the cockpit door.
Granted the asians tend to be conformist,
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Obviously then Wizofoz, with that attitude, Australia should just close all their flying schools especially the ones that caters to asian students as then I would label them as a bunch of hypocrites 
Just churning out mindless drones, rather than imparting knowledge! 
I shall not comment on Korean, China or Indonesia as their problems are more complex than just an asian psyche.As for SQ, they have learnt their lessons from that incident (& it was nothing about asian psyche as other asian operators cancelled their flights in a raging Typhoon!)
Going around in my former company & I believe the other major asian operators are nowadays non punitive & are considered a non event Generally, the new western educated asian pilots are more open minded & are open to criticism unlike the older ones, this attitude is infectious & is permeating throughout the organisation.Of course there will be resistance, but Rome wasn't built in a day!
Loss of face is a non issue nowadays, especially to the newer generation that I mentioned as they are well aware of the repercussions of an unstabilized approach.It's all a matter of perception.
Like I said earlier just because your culture is subservient by nature or even non conducive to a safe conduct of the flight (remember, asian cultures differ from each other), it doesn't mean that you should carry it over to the cockpit.After all, we're professional pilots!
Just churning out mindless drones, rather than imparting knowledge! I shall not comment on Korean, China or Indonesia as their problems are more complex than just an asian psyche.As for SQ, they have learnt their lessons from that incident (& it was nothing about asian psyche as other asian operators cancelled their flights in a raging Typhoon!)
Going around in my former company & I believe the other major asian operators are nowadays non punitive & are considered a non event
Generally, the new western educated asian pilots are more open minded & are open to criticism unlike the older ones, this attitude is infectious & is permeating throughout the organisation.Of course there will be resistance, but Rome wasn't built in a day!Loss of face is a non issue nowadays, especially to the newer generation that I mentioned as they are well aware of the repercussions of an unstabilized approach.It's all a matter of perception.
Like I said earlier just because your culture is subservient by nature or even non conducive to a safe conduct of the flight (remember, asian cultures differ from each other), it doesn't mean that you should carry it over to the cockpit.After all, we're professional pilots!
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As far as the SIA incident Wizofoz mentioned, I seem to recall reading rather recently about a certain aircraft operated by non Asians that took off on a closed runway: Comair in Lexington, KY, who were of course operating for Delta. The thread's probably still running somewhere on rumours and news. So I think that counts as naming a western carrier with a record as bad as SQ. Do I win a stuffed animal or something?
In all seriousness though and without any intention of questioning those with experience of training pilots for Asian carriers, it would seem SQ (to take one example) are rather better at not flying their many expensive aircraft into solid objects at speed than their neighbours in the Indonesian archipelago. And while I haven't looked at their statistics, my general impression is that the folks at MAS are also pretty good at not killing their passengers, despite the relatively short cultural and physical distance between the two countries. So how does one account for the regional differences, even if we just look at the statistics for Indonesia, Korea and Singapore in Wizofoz's post?
In all seriousness though and without any intention of questioning those with experience of training pilots for Asian carriers, it would seem SQ (to take one example) are rather better at not flying their many expensive aircraft into solid objects at speed than their neighbours in the Indonesian archipelago. And while I haven't looked at their statistics, my general impression is that the folks at MAS are also pretty good at not killing their passengers, despite the relatively short cultural and physical distance between the two countries. So how does one account for the regional differences, even if we just look at the statistics for Indonesia, Korea and Singapore in Wizofoz's post?
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"Loss of face" remains (STILL) the biggest threat to safety in Asian aviation.
That's the kind of "loss of face" you never get over.
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"Loss of face" remains (STILL) the biggest threat to safety in Asian aviation.
Casper, to the uninitiated, Loss Of Face is a very subjective subject, even for asians!Numerous books are written by westerners on this subject but I believe that most authors have yet to grasp the gist of it.
Let me give you a classic example.Loss Of Face can also occur to the surviving families of the dead crew.Where, let's say, hypothethically in an accident where the pilots were asians,the findings of the AI Board puts the blame on the 'incompetent' pilots.The grieving crew's family now will suffer a "loss of face" syndrome, as due to the fault of the crew, they have to carry the burden of shame for the misdeeds of their dearly departed.So. like I said earlier, it's a matter of perspective.
I believe in most cases of accidents due to unstabilized approaches, they are more than likely caused by a high "macho & ego" factor or "goal oriented & tunnel vision".These factors are prevalent in most cases & aren't ethnic or gender biased.
Perhaps in their CRM sessions they should show them pictures of people with their faces burned off after a crash like GA200.
VH-Cheer Up, I don't see it going to work.Case in point?Look at the gory advertisement on the effects of smoking in your media.I don't see people quitting smoking in droves after that shock treatment!
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Real men don't go around... So I guess Indonesia is full of gutless pilots now since everyone's paranoid about their approaches that we've seen more go-arounds over the past month that we did over the last 20 years !
*yawn*
I guess I should call my friends spineless useless pilots now because they have done more than 1 go around in their careers (prior to GA200)...
Geez...
You only hear about those who screwed up and caused a mess, but you never hear about those who resigned or were fired or resigned out of personal shame for NOT going around and getting away with it... which is a lot by the way...
PK-KAR
*yawn*
I guess I should call my friends spineless useless pilots now because they have done more than 1 go around in their careers (prior to GA200)...
Geez...
You only hear about those who screwed up and caused a mess, but you never hear about those who resigned or were fired or resigned out of personal shame for NOT going around and getting away with it... which is a lot by the way...
PK-KAR
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PK.........I doubt it has anything to do with chicken-****e pilots.....if the go-around rate has gone up...then hopefully its because these pilots are paying closer attention to the SOP parameters and staying within the boundries of a "stabilized app"......
and....from the fact they are being pounded by the controlling agencies......to tidy up their operating performance,procedures and daily routines.....seems normal after what they have been through.....time will tell
Give you an example,....after SWA ploughed that 73 off the end of Midway.....things have changed big time......and they have had a few...the SWA get paid by the mile...so its go go go.....job and finish....it was tough staying up with these boys on an approach......they were for the most part hot and fast.....
Not anymore...they are like following a herd of turtles.....culture change,the feds,pilot attitudes etc etc....it all adds up....
the crash killed a young boy......if that doesnt wake you up.....and make you come to the party......then find another occupation.....PB
and....from the fact they are being pounded by the controlling agencies......to tidy up their operating performance,procedures and daily routines.....seems normal after what they have been through.....time will tell
Give you an example,....after SWA ploughed that 73 off the end of Midway.....things have changed big time......and they have had a few...the SWA get paid by the mile...so its go go go.....job and finish....it was tough staying up with these boys on an approach......they were for the most part hot and fast.....
Not anymore...they are like following a herd of turtles.....culture change,the feds,pilot attitudes etc etc....it all adds up....
the crash killed a young boy......if that doesnt wake you up.....and make you come to the party......then find another occupation.....PB
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Most Pilots here make more money by going around... they get productivity pay by the actual hour, not by the route mile or the scheduled flight/blocktime on routes they do. Now that's an incentive to go-around even if your F/O sneezes at 500'AGL!
Even before GA200, go-arounds are not viewed as shameful. If it was, we'd have more crashes in Indonesia... Now the good news is that, people are beginning to wake up to the fact that "if this can happen to the carrier everyone looks up to, did we miss something?"
The trend has been there since CRM being made mandatory by most if not all of the companies... the GA200 case is a needed wake up call to remind everyone to continue the trend for change... the death of a young boy killed in the crash should not be the reason for people to change, but an additional and tragic reminder.
Even before GA200, go-arounds are not viewed as shameful. If it was, we'd have more crashes in Indonesia... Now the good news is that, people are beginning to wake up to the fact that "if this can happen to the carrier everyone looks up to, did we miss something?"
The trend has been there since CRM being made mandatory by most if not all of the companies... the GA200 case is a needed wake up call to remind everyone to continue the trend for change... the death of a young boy killed in the crash should not be the reason for people to change, but an additional and tragic reminder.
Grandpa Aerotart
the GA200 case is a needed wake up call to remind everyone to continue the trend for change..
Why will this crash have greater impact than the dozens that have preceeded it in Indonesia?
While I share none of the more extreme views expressed in this thread, and I live in Asia happily flying for an asian carrier, Indonesia is a rather special case within the region. The country has a terrible aviation safety record.
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While I share none of the more extreme views expressed in this thread, and I live in Asia happily flying for an asian carrier, Indonesia is a rather special case within the region. The country has a terrible aviation safety record.
Having said all that I don't really think this accident was caused by those factors necessarily. I suspect the pilot-in-command may have been suffering from some sort of task fixation or even subtle incapacitation associated with task fixation and excessive workload. Unstable approaches often fill the pilot with a sense of disbelief and it is at this point that it is critical to snap out of the fixation with the task of continuing the approach and immediately go around. The earlier the go-around decision is made the easier it is to manage the situation.
The FO not taking control and/or forcing a go-around when it must have been obvious that the aircraft would overrun the runway is a mystery - perhaps he tried?? If he did not try you would have to say that a very steep authority gradient was the likely reason.
Anyway sorry for digressing into speculation, it's probably not all that helpful, but it may still be of some benefit to discuss these issues.
Last edited by aerostatic; 6th Apr 2007 at 00:33.
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An interesting discussion, which I can only comment on from an air traffic control point of view. The phenomenon of which you're argueing is now known as "cultural ergonomics" (Kaplan, 1991 for those interested). It has become an emerging issue in ATC as airspace borders break down, controllers move about and Western-designed ATC systems are taken up by other nations.
In his book Human Factors in Air Traffic Control, Hopkin writes that cultural ergonomics "...refers to deeply imbued cultural differences between nations and groupings of nations, and affects attitudes and loyalties and responsibilites rather than abilities or performance. Some people may be able to learn all the knowledge and skills necessary for air traffic control but be unwilling or unable to subscribe wholeheartedly to the professional ethos, norms and standards of air traffic control...".
It seems that it may be a very difficult issue to tackle head-on. It only becomes apparent after an incident.
In his book Human Factors in Air Traffic Control, Hopkin writes that cultural ergonomics "...refers to deeply imbued cultural differences between nations and groupings of nations, and affects attitudes and loyalties and responsibilites rather than abilities or performance. Some people may be able to learn all the knowledge and skills necessary for air traffic control but be unwilling or unable to subscribe wholeheartedly to the professional ethos, norms and standards of air traffic control...".
It seems that it may be a very difficult issue to tackle head-on. It only becomes apparent after an incident.
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Reference a recent post here...."The FO not taking control and/or forcing a go-around when it must have been obvious that the aircraft would overrun the runway is a mystery - perhaps he tried?? If he did not try you would have to say that a very steep authority gradient was the likely reason"
Google the many many references to the Southwest B737 fiasco at Burbank. Or a more recent Ryanair (I think) fiasco in Norway somewhere....or many others. Then honestly say to your self "If I didn't know what the genetic/racial composition of the crew was, what would I guess?"...then you'll find some of your prejuidices.
Where I work....not far from Seoul....last 2 PICs fired were fired because when there was doubt late in the approach...they ignored any squeaks from the RHS and continued. We haven't had, in a very long time, any resembling the terrible QF B737 approach into the teeth of a force 12 CB at Brisbane....."Cleared to land with hail on the RW".
Airlines can and do make progress. Those wannabee ethnic commentators who instruct a few asians for a short time then move on should keep appropriately quite. As PIC in an asian airline, or anywhere else....... you/we can affect you first officer, in your cockpit and in that time motivate him to understand a tiny bit more about airmanship and assertiveness and the horrors of pride as a tool in a pilots armoury.
And it works. The horrors of "Saving Face" might get you a few more free drinks in an Australian aero club bar....but when you get the chance to live and work with it in Asia, and change it, year in , year out, you can actually do something, vs making caustic remarks.
There was a time when the rigors of the Royal navy would have made the asians look positively flexible...yet they changed. Its not impossible if you get past the rhetoric.
Google the many many references to the Southwest B737 fiasco at Burbank. Or a more recent Ryanair (I think) fiasco in Norway somewhere....or many others. Then honestly say to your self "If I didn't know what the genetic/racial composition of the crew was, what would I guess?"...then you'll find some of your prejuidices.
Where I work....not far from Seoul....last 2 PICs fired were fired because when there was doubt late in the approach...they ignored any squeaks from the RHS and continued. We haven't had, in a very long time, any resembling the terrible QF B737 approach into the teeth of a force 12 CB at Brisbane....."Cleared to land with hail on the RW".
Airlines can and do make progress. Those wannabee ethnic commentators who instruct a few asians for a short time then move on should keep appropriately quite. As PIC in an asian airline, or anywhere else....... you/we can affect you first officer, in your cockpit and in that time motivate him to understand a tiny bit more about airmanship and assertiveness and the horrors of pride as a tool in a pilots armoury.
And it works. The horrors of "Saving Face" might get you a few more free drinks in an Australian aero club bar....but when you get the chance to live and work with it in Asia, and change it, year in , year out, you can actually do something, vs making caustic remarks.
There was a time when the rigors of the Royal navy would have made the asians look positively flexible...yet they changed. Its not impossible if you get past the rhetoric.