A unified Union from top to bottom.
Sprucegoose
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A unified Union from top to bottom.
I posted this on another thread, but it mostly went unnoticed.
I am re-posting it, in the hope of provoking some discussion, what do you think? Any improvements?
I understand union fees are currently around 1% of annual salary in the AFAP, not sure about AIPA! Why not increase this to 1.1 or 1.2% and make membership free to those who can least afford it? This would in effect bring all pilots into one group and stop the rot from 'beneath' as it has so eloquently been put.
May I suggest a cut off for free membership that sits just below the award rate for a Turboprop Captain (most would recognise that at this point in your career it's almost a livable wage). This way F/O's, Charter Pilots and many Instructors would gain free mebership and have the union work on their behalf for better conditions.
People who are a little further advanced in their careers would be supporting those who are up and coming and could expect some loyalty in return with regard to under cutting of wages, only then might we have some hope of uniting all levels of aviation!
Think about it...
Cheers, HH.
May I suggest a cut off for free membership that sits just below the award rate for a Turboprop Captain (most would recognise that at this point in your career it's almost a livable wage). This way F/O's, Charter Pilots and many Instructors would gain free mebership and have the union work on their behalf for better conditions.
People who are a little further advanced in their careers would be supporting those who are up and coming and could expect some loyalty in return with regard to under cutting of wages, only then might we have some hope of uniting all levels of aviation!
Think about it...
Cheers, HH.
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But it is all about me HH.
Why should I pay to support someone below me achieve their dreams? Who paid for me to achieve mine, who helped me?
The biggest problem I see is that what would the cost base actually be? .1 or .2 extra might be enough, but then again might be much too short.
The resources that both AFAP and AIPA have currently pay for the 'services' delivered by both; would this cost base go down or up if the resources were pooled but membership significantly increased?
Would new GA only types coming through use significantly more resources than those that a currently members, thus changing the benefit cost ratio?
From an industrial view point, who would be voting on what? Equal voting rights for those who pay nothing/very little?
I could see the LOLI payments etc. causing a huge headache.
But, playing devils avocate above and asking those questions, I think the idea certainly has merrit.
What about the executives setting up some dialog and reporting back on the concept; what about Civil Air, get them on board too?
Why should I pay to support someone below me achieve their dreams? Who paid for me to achieve mine, who helped me?
The biggest problem I see is that what would the cost base actually be? .1 or .2 extra might be enough, but then again might be much too short.
The resources that both AFAP and AIPA have currently pay for the 'services' delivered by both; would this cost base go down or up if the resources were pooled but membership significantly increased?
Would new GA only types coming through use significantly more resources than those that a currently members, thus changing the benefit cost ratio?
From an industrial view point, who would be voting on what? Equal voting rights for those who pay nothing/very little?
I could see the LOLI payments etc. causing a huge headache.
But, playing devils avocate above and asking those questions, I think the idea certainly has merrit.
What about the executives setting up some dialog and reporting back on the concept; what about Civil Air, get them on board too?
Sprucegoose
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SM4 those are all very valid questions and things that would need to be sorted out! Whilst I have never been a big advocate for unions, even I can see that in order to move forward as a group, we need a unified union or at the very least joint cooperation between the major groups.
I also understand that this may create as many problems as it will solve, for example the requirements of a VFR charter pilot on Groote Eylandt, are far removed from a senior checkie implementing the introduction of the A-380! But what I am trying to point out, is that each group has something to offer the others.
Lets take the major players at the moment:
-AIPA are dealing with EBA issues as well as the constant threat from within their own company!
-AFAP members themselves, including Virgin, RFDS and others are all currently negotiating EBA's.
-JPC have their own problems, incuding International ops introduction and other pressures from within their own group of companies.
-GA faces constant bankruptcies and commercial pressures.
All of us face challenges from foreign (read lower paid workers), under cutting by our colleagues and continued erosion of our current conditions. The prospect of a united union has been talked about many times on Pprune perhaps now is the time to take action!
At the risk of sounding like a government type, what I would like to do is to perhaps call for a 'Summit' between the major groups, to sort out a united way forward. This may or may not involve one union, but it should certainly be done with co-operation from within the vested interests.
Now I am sure some will dredge up old wounds from the past, but I think it is time we forgot and moved forward, you don't even have to forgive if you don't want to, but lets move forward!
What I look forward to is continuing my career and providing it is still available for those that follow in the future.
Cheers, HH.
PS: As for the all about me, I think most are looking to put something back, perhaps this is the opportunity that they need!
PPS: Having Civil Air involved would be encouraged, imagine the safety implications of having all the groups on the same page!
I also understand that this may create as many problems as it will solve, for example the requirements of a VFR charter pilot on Groote Eylandt, are far removed from a senior checkie implementing the introduction of the A-380! But what I am trying to point out, is that each group has something to offer the others.
Lets take the major players at the moment:
-AIPA are dealing with EBA issues as well as the constant threat from within their own company!
-AFAP members themselves, including Virgin, RFDS and others are all currently negotiating EBA's.
-JPC have their own problems, incuding International ops introduction and other pressures from within their own group of companies.
-GA faces constant bankruptcies and commercial pressures.
All of us face challenges from foreign (read lower paid workers), under cutting by our colleagues and continued erosion of our current conditions. The prospect of a united union has been talked about many times on Pprune perhaps now is the time to take action!
At the risk of sounding like a government type, what I would like to do is to perhaps call for a 'Summit' between the major groups, to sort out a united way forward. This may or may not involve one union, but it should certainly be done with co-operation from within the vested interests.
Now I am sure some will dredge up old wounds from the past, but I think it is time we forgot and moved forward, you don't even have to forgive if you don't want to, but lets move forward!
What I look forward to is continuing my career and providing it is still available for those that follow in the future.
Cheers, HH.
PS: As for the all about me, I think most are looking to put something back, perhaps this is the opportunity that they need!
PPS: Having Civil Air involved would be encouraged, imagine the safety implications of having all the groups on the same page!
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but it is affordable, its only 1%. If you earn 15k then you only pay 1%, if you earn 150k you pay 1%. If they said to me, oh you earn 200k you pay 2%, that would be it, I would no longer be a member. The only other way would be to flat rate it, ie $500 but then you would all say that is not fair to the guys earn less than 50k.
To me its an insurance policy, with the @rseholes that I have worked for over the years I cannot afford not to have it, an unless you guys have insurance you cannot afford not to have it either. But make it more expensive and I'll get my own insurance.
To me its an insurance policy, with the @rseholes that I have worked for over the years I cannot afford not to have it, an unless you guys have insurance you cannot afford not to have it either. But make it more expensive and I'll get my own insurance.
Sprucegoose
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Thats the whole idea Dodgy, people shouldn't be asked to live on $15,000 per year, nor should people be accepting that level of pay, but without representation what do you expect?
Don't know about you, but casual positions aside my lowest pay was roughly $29,000 per annum, this of course thanks to the award negociated by AFAP. Sadly even at that level of pay, with a wife to feed and rent of over $250, I was unable to find $290 per annum for the fees, during this time I spent any wealth I had accumulated just to live.
For me it has only been in recent years that I have been able to afford the cover that I should have had all along. You might say how can you not afford it? Well it's all about putting food on the table.
Cheers, HH.
Don't know about you, but casual positions aside my lowest pay was roughly $29,000 per annum, this of course thanks to the award negociated by AFAP. Sadly even at that level of pay, with a wife to feed and rent of over $250, I was unable to find $290 per annum for the fees, during this time I spent any wealth I had accumulated just to live.
For me it has only been in recent years that I have been able to afford the cover that I should have had all along. You might say how can you not afford it? Well it's all about putting food on the table.
Cheers, HH.
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I've been a member of AFAP since the days I was getting paid 350$/wk. If people say they cant afford membership, they're using that as an excuse. I wouldn't support any policy of people getting free membership and being subsidised by those who are a little better off financially. I dont think thats fair
Sprucegoose
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My point being, it only takes an increase of 0.2 percent per year for someone on $150,000+ to cover the fees of someone on $30,000...
Another idea rather than free for people on low incomes, perhaps a yearly fee for all, say $52 (1 dollar per week) + 1% of annul salary for all who earn in excess of $45,000!
Just ideas to toss around.
Another idea rather than free for people on low incomes, perhaps a yearly fee for all, say $52 (1 dollar per week) + 1% of annul salary for all who earn in excess of $45,000!
Just ideas to toss around.
Sprucegoose
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I don't necessarily advocate a single union, but I do advocate a united front!
Even a single union would need varying levels to deal with the varying levels of aviation!
Is our current system of many unions fairing any better?
Even a single union would need varying levels to deal with the varying levels of aviation!
Is our current system of many unions fairing any better?
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I'm not condoning pay of 15k, I had to accept it and managed to pay my fees with it but of course that doesn't make me a hero and I don't wish it on anyone. Other unions such as the TWU have far cheaper rates and more clout, unfortunately our union botched their clout credibility 17.5 years ago. Times to airlines are far less than what they were 10-20 years ago and jet seats 'appear' more abundant yet less lucrative. The cycle is not isolated to our industry but it does seem to be more prevailant, yet our regulator not only condones it but openly supports it. The MCPL is evidence of this.
It is chicken and the egg, do you drop the rates entirely to get more involved? I would think that the AFAP have to drop their rates to 0.5% to try to bolster the membership not their union coffers and at least attempt to increase membership. At least that drop in rate would reflect a drop industry standard pay(!)
The % of pay is fair, just the the Hong Kong tax system where everyone pay a flat 15% (might be more these days) so if you earn more, you pay more not like the @rsehole braketed system we have here.
It is chicken and the egg, do you drop the rates entirely to get more involved? I would think that the AFAP have to drop their rates to 0.5% to try to bolster the membership not their union coffers and at least attempt to increase membership. At least that drop in rate would reflect a drop industry standard pay(!)
The % of pay is fair, just the the Hong Kong tax system where everyone pay a flat 15% (might be more these days) so if you earn more, you pay more not like the @rsehole braketed system we have here.
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Sorry HH but I think your idea just plain wont work. Having read your posts over the last six or seven years, I am surprised that you offered the 'free lunch' solution to rope pilots in under one banner.
You could PAY pilots to be part of the union and some still would not join. Then there is the small problem that it was not the union that required paid membership, but the legislation.
The problem is not that pilots are put off by the cost. The problem is that a lot of pilots don't see the value of union membership -- until they have a problem staring them in the face.
It is usually then that the purse strings loosen (reluctantly). Usually accompanied by complaints about the silly rule of actually having to be a financial member at the time of a complaint/incident.
It might seem unfair to you, but to someone that has paid their dues for the last fifteen years, it just sounds plain CHEAP when I hear it.
I was able to dig into MY pocket when I was a sh!t-kicker C210 pilot working for "Secutib" and Hardy Aviation. Princely salary of $26,500 per annum. AFAP subs at the time were a minimum of $350 if I remember right -- MORE than 1% of my single engine VFR wage. I have the receipts and payslips downstairs if you wanna see.
I saw the value as soon as good ole' Richard G closed down Secutib with an average of ten weeks annual leave owing to each pilot. Our lovely former owner thought that 6 weeks rec leave per annum for pilots was excessive, and made noises about only paying part of our entitlements. Secutib was in administration, and we saw nothing, nada, for weeks.
My AFAP membership paid for itself for the next five years when a quick phonecall to Melbourne had Coxie firing rockets at the administrator. Twelve weeks annual leave, paid in full, by the end of the week.
I have sat next to hundreds of cheapskate pilots that hesitate to shell out 1% of a reasonable salary. They scream like stuck pigs when their employer introduces AWA, reduces holiday access, doesn't pay allowances. To my ears, its all just blah.
There is no great secret. Anyone that reads these pages has heard of the AFAP, the TWU, etc. If you are too cheap to set aside 0.25% of your salary in four x trimonthly payments onto your credit card, then be honest, you are just being CHEAP. Your average pilot spends three times that much in beer per annum.
Everybody knows that the AFAP etc are not perfect. They cannot rescue pilots from every stupid situation they find themselves in - and a lot of them are due to a lack of courage in asking employers direct questions. But I know my union dues represent farking excellent value for money. If I put a US$55 million aircraft into the mud at the end of the runway, my measly 1% contribution will be nothing compared to the sh!t I would be in if I had 'saved' that money.
You could PAY pilots to be part of the union and some still would not join. Then there is the small problem that it was not the union that required paid membership, but the legislation.
The problem is not that pilots are put off by the cost. The problem is that a lot of pilots don't see the value of union membership -- until they have a problem staring them in the face.
It is usually then that the purse strings loosen (reluctantly). Usually accompanied by complaints about the silly rule of actually having to be a financial member at the time of a complaint/incident.
It might seem unfair to you, but to someone that has paid their dues for the last fifteen years, it just sounds plain CHEAP when I hear it.
I was able to dig into MY pocket when I was a sh!t-kicker C210 pilot working for "Secutib" and Hardy Aviation. Princely salary of $26,500 per annum. AFAP subs at the time were a minimum of $350 if I remember right -- MORE than 1% of my single engine VFR wage. I have the receipts and payslips downstairs if you wanna see.
I saw the value as soon as good ole' Richard G closed down Secutib with an average of ten weeks annual leave owing to each pilot. Our lovely former owner thought that 6 weeks rec leave per annum for pilots was excessive, and made noises about only paying part of our entitlements. Secutib was in administration, and we saw nothing, nada, for weeks.
My AFAP membership paid for itself for the next five years when a quick phonecall to Melbourne had Coxie firing rockets at the administrator. Twelve weeks annual leave, paid in full, by the end of the week.
I have sat next to hundreds of cheapskate pilots that hesitate to shell out 1% of a reasonable salary. They scream like stuck pigs when their employer introduces AWA, reduces holiday access, doesn't pay allowances. To my ears, its all just blah.
There is no great secret. Anyone that reads these pages has heard of the AFAP, the TWU, etc. If you are too cheap to set aside 0.25% of your salary in four x trimonthly payments onto your credit card, then be honest, you are just being CHEAP. Your average pilot spends three times that much in beer per annum.
Everybody knows that the AFAP etc are not perfect. They cannot rescue pilots from every stupid situation they find themselves in - and a lot of them are due to a lack of courage in asking employers direct questions. But I know my union dues represent farking excellent value for money. If I put a US$55 million aircraft into the mud at the end of the runway, my measly 1% contribution will be nothing compared to the sh!t I would be in if I had 'saved' that money.
Sprucegoose
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I am surprised that you offered the 'free lunch' solution to rope pilots in under one banner.
The major concerns that are so often put forward on Pprune need to be addressed at present they are not!
-To many individual unions.
-Pilots under cutting other pilots (ie: seperate unions under cutting one another).
-Companies not paying the award.
-GA pilots who work for nothing.
I was able to dig into MY pocket when I was a sh!t-kicker C210 pilot working for "Secutib" and Hardy Aviation. Princely salary of $26,500 per annum. AFAP subs at the time were a minimum of $350 if I remember right -- MORE than 1% of my single engine VFR wage. I have the receipts and payslips downstairs if you wanna see.
The problem is not that pilots are put off by the cost. The problem is that a lot of pilots don't see the value of union membership -- until they have a problem staring them in the face.
I am not here to debate the relative merits of one union or another, nor am I here to pass judgement on the 'value for money' provided by the AFAP! What I am trying to point out is that unions are under represented amongst the GA/small regional fratenity and something needs to be done. There are hundreds of threads on prune about the problems in the industry, many of which stem from the entry level positions upwards, the most common solution put forward is unity, I am expanding that by saying we need to be better represented in GA and offering but one solution. Do you agree with that much at least?
To look at it another way, how many pilots are employed by the airlines? How many are employed in GA/small regionals and how many have union representation? Which group is larger? Which group has the most industrial leverage?
When a house of cards topples over, it falls from the bottom up, not the other way round! Lets build a stonger foundation, benefits will flow both ways....
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Okay - now here is an idea.
Associate membership. The Loco bloke here deals with a lot of bookings over a 12 month period from my mates in here. I do make a reasonable return from this,
Why could we not instigate a fund for us non-flying as a means to cover the butts of the up and coming generation of Professional Pilots? Pay their fees and make sure they are protected.
There a lot of other non Airline/Pilot/Cabin Crew posters who enjoy this part of the web and some use it for their own purposes, and a lot of senior Pilots who would like to protect the next generation.
Such a fund could be used to cover the butts of those who could become victims of employers because they had no fallback if they have a feral employer. It may also help to sort out the feral employers.
Serious suggestion dudes and dudettes. I am willing to chuck in $500.00 to start the fund if it can find a base and direction from you good people. The Union itself would be the logical admin, and as Pilots reach their goal in higher areas of the Industry the good and true ones would repay the fund and keep it rolling. It is not a huge amount, but a start.
Call it AirAid. Reclaiming the skies for those who love to fly. Whatever.
Protecting the rights and conditions of Pilots and Cabin Crew is one of the few things we can do to hold the remnants of a bastardised industry together and hopefully rebuild it just a little.
I am up for it, but is anyone else ready to take on this beast? I only have an idiot savante moment on rare occasion, but I think this emu may actually fly.
The Woomerii know where to find me.
Best regards
Ron
EWL
Associate membership. The Loco bloke here deals with a lot of bookings over a 12 month period from my mates in here. I do make a reasonable return from this,
Why could we not instigate a fund for us non-flying as a means to cover the butts of the up and coming generation of Professional Pilots? Pay their fees and make sure they are protected.
There a lot of other non Airline/Pilot/Cabin Crew posters who enjoy this part of the web and some use it for their own purposes, and a lot of senior Pilots who would like to protect the next generation.
Such a fund could be used to cover the butts of those who could become victims of employers because they had no fallback if they have a feral employer. It may also help to sort out the feral employers.
Serious suggestion dudes and dudettes. I am willing to chuck in $500.00 to start the fund if it can find a base and direction from you good people. The Union itself would be the logical admin, and as Pilots reach their goal in higher areas of the Industry the good and true ones would repay the fund and keep it rolling. It is not a huge amount, but a start.
Call it AirAid. Reclaiming the skies for those who love to fly. Whatever.
Protecting the rights and conditions of Pilots and Cabin Crew is one of the few things we can do to hold the remnants of a bastardised industry together and hopefully rebuild it just a little.
I am up for it, but is anyone else ready to take on this beast? I only have an idiot savante moment on rare occasion, but I think this emu may actually fly.
The Woomerii know where to find me.
Best regards
Ron
EWL
Grandpa Aerotart
While ideas such as the above from Loco are nice thoughts and worthy or merit those suggesting AFAP membership is unaffordable on GA pay are just spouting BS...or worse wanting something for nothing.
Whether it is $350/annum flat for a starting out GA pilot or 1% of $29k/annum, $290/annum, it equates to such a miniscule amount of money per week that it just beggars belief that any intelligent person would object....or not see the value.
$350/annum is < $7/week.
So you're going to tell me that 1 packet of smokes a week or 2 beers is too much to pay for all that the AFAP can provide you?
I bet you always 'manage' to find the $ for ciggies and beer each week.
Whether it is $350/annum flat for a starting out GA pilot or 1% of $29k/annum, $290/annum, it equates to such a miniscule amount of money per week that it just beggars belief that any intelligent person would object....or not see the value.
$350/annum is < $7/week.
So you're going to tell me that 1 packet of smokes a week or 2 beers is too much to pay for all that the AFAP can provide you?
I bet you always 'manage' to find the $ for ciggies and beer each week.
Sprucegoose
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those suggesting AFAP membership is unaffordable on GA pay are just spouting BS
By the way don't drink beer, don't smoke, but really that is not the point!
Grandpa Aerotart
Don't drink and don't smoke....Geez
Ok it equates to a Big Mac meal upsized once a week...what ever...and it is exactly the fecking point.
Cost is not what stops guys and girls in GA joining AFAP...it is apathy.
Ok it equates to a Big Mac meal upsized once a week...what ever...and it is exactly the fecking point.
Cost is not what stops guys and girls in GA joining AFAP...it is apathy.
Sprucegoose
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and it is exactly the fecking point
I have never claimed to have the answer, just a suggestion to open up the debate!
If apathy is the problem, I would suggest the unions need to do way more ground work in order to build a base in GA! In 7 1/2 years in GA/Small Regionals I never saw a representative not once, any information I found out, I found out on my own, I had to chase them in order to join!
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 23rd Mar 2007 at 10:04.