cruise/junior first officer 4 J*
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Quote:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.
I would doubt it. You would have to be a hard working -400 so to achieve this and would probably include allowances...
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
Oh, endorsements come free with these airlines as well.
I would doubt it. You would have to be a hard working -400 so to achieve this and would probably include allowances...
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P2T2
You said this – “crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions.”
You quoted Jetstar FO salary thus - $88,685.
I know of a junior widebody FO employed by Air Canada who is paid less than this. I know a bloke working for SQ Cargo as an FO who is paid less than this. I know people working in MI,TG,MH and GA and none of them are paid as well as the numbers you quote from Jetstar, let alone Qantas.
Are these reputable or semi reputable airlines?
Onya said – “I make more as an FO on a corporate jet.”
Wow, where are you based. Who are you working for? I have flown LHS on various corporate aircraft (GIV/F2000) for reputable companies in high paying countries but I have never been paid as well as you.
You said this – “crews from just about every other semi-reputable airline in the world is laughing at anyone who would agree to work under these conditions.”
You quoted Jetstar FO salary thus - $88,685.
I know of a junior widebody FO employed by Air Canada who is paid less than this. I know a bloke working for SQ Cargo as an FO who is paid less than this. I know people working in MI,TG,MH and GA and none of them are paid as well as the numbers you quote from Jetstar, let alone Qantas.
Are these reputable or semi reputable airlines?
Onya said – “I make more as an FO on a corporate jet.”
Wow, where are you based. Who are you working for? I have flown LHS on various corporate aircraft (GIV/F2000) for reputable companies in high paying countries but I have never been paid as well as you.
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Virgindriver:
True, a 1st year QF SO would struggle to do JQ Int'l command wages.
But for the purposes of informing an industry in a country that has seemingly been brain washed by their own management, believe me QF is not the only airline who's SO's would be doing better than JQ command wages. Not bragging, just informing.
JQ have sold themselves short!!! and anyone that thinks otherwise is ill informed. Unfortunately this has now set the bench mark for QF and VB when they negotiate future EBA's.
By the way, good on the VB drivers for having the spine 2 stand up 4 what the believe to be fair T&C. Good luck with it all!!!!
The Professor:
Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay. There was never a "crewing company" on standby to crew JQ Int'l in the event that the lads voted down the EBA. That was corruption at it's best!!!
Once again check: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/ and/or any recruitment agency site that shows pay rates. It's all there.
It's up to all of us to bring Av'n in Oz back in line with international standards. For too long we have let our own airlines bluff us into thinking that SARS, 9/11, LCC's, Fuel Costs etc are an excuse for us to except pay freezes and/or crap EBA's.
Don't ask me how (I'm not that smart), but hopefully someone will figure it out...
True, a 1st year QF SO would struggle to do JQ Int'l command wages.
But for the purposes of informing an industry in a country that has seemingly been brain washed by their own management, believe me QF is not the only airline who's SO's would be doing better than JQ command wages. Not bragging, just informing.
JQ have sold themselves short!!! and anyone that thinks otherwise is ill informed. Unfortunately this has now set the bench mark for QF and VB when they negotiate future EBA's.
By the way, good on the VB drivers for having the spine 2 stand up 4 what the believe to be fair T&C. Good luck with it all!!!!
The Professor:
Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay. There was never a "crewing company" on standby to crew JQ Int'l in the event that the lads voted down the EBA. That was corruption at it's best!!!
Once again check: http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/ and/or any recruitment agency site that shows pay rates. It's all there.
It's up to all of us to bring Av'n in Oz back in line with international standards. For too long we have let our own airlines bluff us into thinking that SARS, 9/11, LCC's, Fuel Costs etc are an excuse for us to except pay freezes and/or crap EBA's.
Don't ask me how (I'm not that smart), but hopefully someone will figure it out...
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 23:10.
If I was a QF cadet I would be very worried right now as they may find themselves being siphoned off in this direction similar to Jetstar Asia.
Imagine, paying $100 000 for your training, $40 000 for the A330 endo to then get paid $50 000 odd a year.
Imagine, paying $100 000 for your training, $40 000 for the A330 endo to then get paid $50 000 odd a year.
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P2T2
There is no such thing as fair when it comes to market forces determining the salary levels of those rendering services. The market decides.
You said – “Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay.”
You are not making a rational comparison. Contract companies generally pay higher salaries to attract employees, the obvious downside being that the employee understands that the position is finite and nearly always in a location where a premium must be offered. Air Vietnam/Korean etc don’t pay the money they do because they are career positions. Full time positions at home in your own country are where most people work and will accept lower pay as a result.
The website you offered actually undermines your argument. None of the newer or upstart carriers on the list pay as well as Jetstar do, taking into account tax and cost of living. Even at Northwest, an FO would need 3 years seniority on the A330 to achieve first year salary at Jetstar.
There is no such thing as fair when it comes to market forces determining the salary levels of those rendering services. The market decides.
You said – “Having worked in the contract world and having many friends who are still employed their, don't be fooled into thinking that $88K AUD for an A330 with Oz tax is fair pay.”
You are not making a rational comparison. Contract companies generally pay higher salaries to attract employees, the obvious downside being that the employee understands that the position is finite and nearly always in a location where a premium must be offered. Air Vietnam/Korean etc don’t pay the money they do because they are career positions. Full time positions at home in your own country are where most people work and will accept lower pay as a result.
The website you offered actually undermines your argument. None of the newer or upstart carriers on the list pay as well as Jetstar do, taking into account tax and cost of living. Even at Northwest, an FO would need 3 years seniority on the A330 to achieve first year salary at Jetstar.
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G'day Professor,
I understand your point regarding contractual employment. There is a LOT to be said for living / working in your own country. However a happy medium would be nice.
Considering remuneration for FO's on contracts jobs is usually in the ball park of $8-$10 K / month USD tax free and includes accom' etc, this is a LONG way from $88K AUD pa, living in Oz with our tax system.
Regarding Northwest; they're not the best example to compare with ie Chp 11 protection etc.
Anyway, I'm done arguing. Hopefully I've made my point.
Cheers
I understand your point regarding contractual employment. There is a LOT to be said for living / working in your own country. However a happy medium would be nice.
Considering remuneration for FO's on contracts jobs is usually in the ball park of $8-$10 K / month USD tax free and includes accom' etc, this is a LONG way from $88K AUD pa, living in Oz with our tax system.
Regarding Northwest; they're not the best example to compare with ie Chp 11 protection etc.
Anyway, I'm done arguing. Hopefully I've made my point.
Cheers
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Errr, nope. No points made. You did however manage to show how out of touch you are with the industry.
Any comparison to the US industry (where I now work) is doomed to fail. I have never worked in oz but I have a lot of buddies that do/have and I have to say - even Jetstar salary levels are better than the way the US is heading.
I just left a job in Asia and it sounds like fellahs like P2T2 are just kidding around with FO pay at 10 US per month tax free.
Try about half of that or less.
Any comparison to the US industry (where I now work) is doomed to fail. I have never worked in oz but I have a lot of buddies that do/have and I have to say - even Jetstar salary levels are better than the way the US is heading.
I just left a job in Asia and it sounds like fellahs like P2T2 are just kidding around with FO pay at 10 US per month tax free.
Try about half of that or less.
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Quote:
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
Are you sure about this? The following is from the Pilot Career Information Booklet on the Qantas website:
•
Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
Are you sure about this? The following is from the Pilot Career Information Booklet on the Qantas website:
Pay for Qantas Pilots
We are often asked – How much does a Qantas pilot earn? The following is a guide on the average yearly salary depending on fleet type.
•
Second Officer - $70,000 -
$100,000 per annum
$100,000 per annum
•
First Officer – $90,000 to
$150,000 per annum
$150,000 per annum
•
Captain - $200,000 + per
annum"
787 Captain
annum"
787 Captain
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DTH,
At no stage did I make a comparison to the industry within the US (different market forces are in play there). Most contracts just pay in USD (I assume that's where u became confused).
However since you mentioned it, there are contracts with US basings paying the $'s I was referring to:
http://www.hawaiiaviation.com/positi..._ncab747fo.htm
[urlhttp://www.crewresourcesworldwide.com/positions_contractsummary_ANA_JP_Express_B767_FO.htm[/url]
Additionally, by having a look at a few recruiting agencies (below) and making a few enquiries, it's easy to conclude that although there is a conceded pay cut for working in Oz, the JQ EBA is still a joke.
http://www.rishworth.co.nz/opportuni...list.asp?cat=1
http://www.directpersonnel.com/
http://www.contractair.net/public/index.html
http://www.davikflighttraining.com/vacancies.htm
http://www.bettsrecruitmentltd.co.uk/vacancies.htm
http://www.stormaviation.com/index.php
http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviatio...htcrewJobs.asp
http://www.pas-aviation.aero/library...m_welcome.html
http://www.sigmaraviation.com/
http://www.iacglobal.com/vac.htm
http://www.world-airline-services.com/
The points I make are:
1. The JQ pilot body was conned into signing off on a dodgy EBA for their Int'l operation (by their own pilot council)
2. These artificially low conditions have now become an adverse benchmark / bargaining tool used by airline industrial negotiatiotors for other airlines in the region.
Anyone disagree??
At no stage did I make a comparison to the industry within the US (different market forces are in play there). Most contracts just pay in USD (I assume that's where u became confused).
However since you mentioned it, there are contracts with US basings paying the $'s I was referring to:
http://www.hawaiiaviation.com/positi..._ncab747fo.htm
[urlhttp://www.crewresourcesworldwide.com/positions_contractsummary_ANA_JP_Express_B767_FO.htm[/url]
Additionally, by having a look at a few recruiting agencies (below) and making a few enquiries, it's easy to conclude that although there is a conceded pay cut for working in Oz, the JQ EBA is still a joke.
http://www.rishworth.co.nz/opportuni...list.asp?cat=1
http://www.directpersonnel.com/
http://www.contractair.net/public/index.html
http://www.davikflighttraining.com/vacancies.htm
http://www.bettsrecruitmentltd.co.uk/vacancies.htm
http://www.stormaviation.com/index.php
http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviatio...htcrewJobs.asp
http://www.pas-aviation.aero/library...m_welcome.html
http://www.sigmaraviation.com/
http://www.iacglobal.com/vac.htm
http://www.world-airline-services.com/
The points I make are:
1. The JQ pilot body was conned into signing off on a dodgy EBA for their Int'l operation (by their own pilot council)
2. These artificially low conditions have now become an adverse benchmark / bargaining tool used by airline industrial negotiatiotors for other airlines in the region.
Anyone disagree??
Last edited by P2T2; 1st Mar 2007 at 11:24.
Nunc est bibendum
Someone said to me the other day that J* conditions had put the aviation industry back by a decade WRT terms and conditions for crew. That's about right because I became a QF F/O in '97 and earn't about $88K that year....and that was year three F/O pay. 
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I would disagree with the 2 points made by P2T2.
The J* pilots were not conned by their Pilot Council at all. They were told quite simply that the deal on offer was the best deal they had been able to negotiate. The JPC had sought better T&Cs but were unable to reach agreement with the Company. The Company put the EBA amendment to a vote of the pilots and the pilots voted it up. The JPC made no threats regarding an external crewing company. In fact the JPC (at that time) would have been happier to see the pilots reject the EBA amendment. The Company implied that a NO vote would see a greenfields international operation. Not the JPC. The pssibility of external crewing may have been the private opinion of individual members but the JPC did not put that up as a unified council position to the troups.
As to why the pilots themselves would vote it up. Many in the company at that time had lost jobs and careers when AN collapsed and had been dispersed throughout the world. They had come to J* on short term commands and prospects. Here was an opportunity to shore up their commands. Some already in J* (from Impulse days) saw an opportunity to fly larger aircraft on international operations. Something they would not otherwise have done. Just because a pilot does not get thru the selection process for QF does not mean he/she cannot fly, or do the job. They do however, get sick of being told they are not good enough and then expected to forego what they can get, in order to shore up the position of the very people jibing them for "not being good enough" whatever that means.
The J* pilots were not conned. They chose to vote up the EBA amendment.
Regarding point 2. It may be valid to a cerain extent however VB have been around longer than J* and had an EBA before the Impulse people did. NJS have been around even longer with AWAs. Both of these set the standard benchmark before J*. Benchmarks of this nature do depend on supply and demand. There is no such thing as Industry Standard. That is easlly demonstrated by the large variations in T&Cs around the Asia Pacific region.
What dollar value does one put on living and working in Australia. I know some people who say $100,000.00 a year. Add that to the J* salary and it is not so shabby.
The AO argument falls flat in my view. It may be different to QF but still overall it is inferior. So before anybody puts down the J* people, in my opinion, No Qantas pilot should have taken a position with AO. Otherwise you are simply arguing degrees.
Also in my opinion, very few of the current QF pilots, VB pilots, and J* pilots for that matter have actually fought for terms and conditions. Understandably that is a thing of the past. I sincerely doubt that if the positions had been reversed, that the outcome would have been any different.
The whole bleating from the QF pilots reminds me of the CX employment ban of a few years ago. While actively discouraging hopeful wannabies they were accepting promotions within created by the same vacancies they were banning over.
While not QF pilot bashing it does seem to me that group is the most vocal. This is understandable as they have the most to lose. I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.
The J* pilots were not conned by their Pilot Council at all. They were told quite simply that the deal on offer was the best deal they had been able to negotiate. The JPC had sought better T&Cs but were unable to reach agreement with the Company. The Company put the EBA amendment to a vote of the pilots and the pilots voted it up. The JPC made no threats regarding an external crewing company. In fact the JPC (at that time) would have been happier to see the pilots reject the EBA amendment. The Company implied that a NO vote would see a greenfields international operation. Not the JPC. The pssibility of external crewing may have been the private opinion of individual members but the JPC did not put that up as a unified council position to the troups.
As to why the pilots themselves would vote it up. Many in the company at that time had lost jobs and careers when AN collapsed and had been dispersed throughout the world. They had come to J* on short term commands and prospects. Here was an opportunity to shore up their commands. Some already in J* (from Impulse days) saw an opportunity to fly larger aircraft on international operations. Something they would not otherwise have done. Just because a pilot does not get thru the selection process for QF does not mean he/she cannot fly, or do the job. They do however, get sick of being told they are not good enough and then expected to forego what they can get, in order to shore up the position of the very people jibing them for "not being good enough" whatever that means.
The J* pilots were not conned. They chose to vote up the EBA amendment.
Regarding point 2. It may be valid to a cerain extent however VB have been around longer than J* and had an EBA before the Impulse people did. NJS have been around even longer with AWAs. Both of these set the standard benchmark before J*. Benchmarks of this nature do depend on supply and demand. There is no such thing as Industry Standard. That is easlly demonstrated by the large variations in T&Cs around the Asia Pacific region.
What dollar value does one put on living and working in Australia. I know some people who say $100,000.00 a year. Add that to the J* salary and it is not so shabby.
The AO argument falls flat in my view. It may be different to QF but still overall it is inferior. So before anybody puts down the J* people, in my opinion, No Qantas pilot should have taken a position with AO. Otherwise you are simply arguing degrees.
Also in my opinion, very few of the current QF pilots, VB pilots, and J* pilots for that matter have actually fought for terms and conditions. Understandably that is a thing of the past. I sincerely doubt that if the positions had been reversed, that the outcome would have been any different.
The whole bleating from the QF pilots reminds me of the CX employment ban of a few years ago. While actively discouraging hopeful wannabies they were accepting promotions within created by the same vacancies they were banning over.
While not QF pilot bashing it does seem to me that group is the most vocal. This is understandable as they have the most to lose. I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.
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TurbTool,
Thanks for your response. Even though we obviously differ on our view points, I do respect your opinion.
For those who've read my earlier posts on this thread, you will see I've had a fair spray. Perhaps I've let my frustrations get the better of me (should've hit the bottle instead).
What I've written is in no way meant to be a personal attack on JQ pilots themselves. If what I've said has come across that way, I sincerely apologise as this was not my intent. We are all in this stinkfest together and should work together collectively to improve ALL of our conditions.
Cheers
Thanks for your response. Even though we obviously differ on our view points, I do respect your opinion.
For those who've read my earlier posts on this thread, you will see I've had a fair spray. Perhaps I've let my frustrations get the better of me (should've hit the bottle instead).
What I've written is in no way meant to be a personal attack on JQ pilots themselves. If what I've said has come across that way, I sincerely apologise as this was not my intent. We are all in this stinkfest together and should work together collectively to improve ALL of our conditions.
Cheers
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Maybe we can all move to what happens to low paid staff in the US. Their pay is substituted by tips...Maybe the CSM can stand at the door with a tip Jar and we can also value add to the process by using all that space up the aerobridge where the rest of the cabin crew can busk. The flight crew will not be involved in this process as they will have already provided the entertainment after having only spent min time in the sim for the endorsement....hence landing practice reqd.
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EBA online
The agreement is HERE.
This has subquently been ammended to include "widebody" operations. Unfortunately I cannot put my finger on this ammendment at the momement.
Think very very carefully about what you are signing up for.
There are lots of opportunites elsewhere that to give you a far greater return on your training investment.
Further "cruise FO" time will be regarded just the same as SO time, which is not really worth a pinch of sh#t in the contract world. You effectively will be locked in at your current hour experience level until you get sufficient "hand on stick" time as a full FO.
This has subquently been ammended to include "widebody" operations. Unfortunately I cannot put my finger on this ammendment at the momement.
Think very very carefully about what you are signing up for.
There are lots of opportunites elsewhere that to give you a far greater return on your training investment.
Further "cruise FO" time will be regarded just the same as SO time, which is not really worth a pinch of sh#t in the contract world. You effectively will be locked in at your current hour experience level until you get sufficient "hand on stick" time as a full FO.
Last edited by freddyKrueger; 2nd Mar 2007 at 00:56. Reason: grammer
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I wonder if they had not splintered the pilot voice in this country many years ago would things be different now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT says it all!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT says it all!!
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Splintered or not, many of the younger guys and gals realise that working together is far stronger than isolated interest groups grappling for the last dollar. I think we are all far more knowledgeable about the commercial realities of aviation and hence the need to be flexible (meaning being open minded to new idea's) and that’s just a generational fact as globalization effects us all far more than it used too. So in effect we are facing bigger challenges as companies take on a greater global footprint.....which brings me to my point which is as they get bigger we must get bigger and become smarter. For us in Oz if we don't find some sort of unity all we will get are echoes of our own frustrations....because no one will listen. Jetstar is here to stay it's brought a lot more people into the traveling public, it's not management fault it works (sort of) it's the people who pay the money to sit in the seat. What our challenge is not to squash jetstar but to prove our value and we can only do that by putting up a united front then arguing our case for it.
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Wide Body Captain: $147,809
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
I know most Qantas & all Cathay S/O's are paid more than this.
Crikey I'll even email you a copy of my final S/O group certificate (which shows allowances, etc) if you want!
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Splintered or not, many of the younger guys and gals realise that working together is far stronger than isolated interest groups grappling for the last dollar. I think we are all far more knowledgeable about the commercial realities of aviation and hence the need to be flexible (meaning being open minded to new idea's) and that’s just a generational fact as globalization effects us all far more than it used too. So in effect we are facing bigger challenges as companies take on a greater global footprint.....which brings me to my point which is as they get bigger we must get bigger and become smarter. For us in Oz if we don't find some sort of unity all we will get are echoes of our own frustrations....because no one will listen. Jetstar is here to stay it's brought a lot more people into the traveling public, it's not management fault it works (sort of) it's the people who pay the money to sit in the seat. What our challenge is not to squash jetstar but to prove our value and we can only do that by putting up a united front then arguing our case for it.