QL to QF's new recruitment process

[Ratter]

Cadets in QL!

What wonderful news...... NOT!!!

It is bad enough that these 150 hour children are pillaging the GA arena for people looking for an entry level RH seat turboprop position... now they get into QL.

These cadets get a seniority number when they start training... so does that mean that when the QL guys who actually have experience get their seniority numbers that they will have a lower number than any cadet that has started the cadetship within the last two years?

What will happen with the $10K pay for endorsement....... will the cadets get a freebie? do they pay? or are they gonna abolish the pay up front? If this is the answer to the mass QL exodus surely they wont have to charge up front any more???? What am i thinking.... any way to a$& f#@k pilots is the general road travelled by majority of aviation management in this sensibility foresaken business.

If i was an entry level FO for QL i would have some serious concerns about this new "agreement" so to speak.

With the rumoured level of recruiting that will be done over the next two years with mainline, would you really want to lock yourself out because you are expected to provide two years of service? Well if QL pay for the endorsement a return of service is by no means unreasonable but if you paid for it....... you fork out $10K for the priveledge of flying a turboprop at the pay rate of $49K P.A and you get to miss out on an enormous amount of recruiting in mainline because you haven't worked for QL for two years yet. But i guess you are compensated by that warm and fuzzy feeling of satisfaction in knowing that you have slogged it out in the most remote parts of the country just to get that illusive 500 multi-command and you have earned the opportunity to climb up to this next rung of prositution...... Woops i forgot to mention that the 500 multi is now arbitrary coz these 18 year old walking wallets don't have to do it because they are Cadets..... Oh and by the way, if they started their GFPT training before you completed stage 3 you will take the back seat in promotion prospects by comparison.

Cadetships are wrong on so many levels!

I have nothing against the cadets personally. The institution that creates this joke of a process should be ashamed!

Rant over!

Safe flying!

Ratter

[Toblerone]

Has anyone cadet bashing here ever actually met a cadet? Because I know a few of them. Of those that I know not one of them is the son of a Qantas captain. Every one of them is in debt or borrowed the money from their parents who remortgaged their homes. Every one of them is seriously appreciative of where they are and works extremely hard in their work placement.

I know a Qantas captain's son who applied to the cadetship program and didn't get in and is now working in GA. So being the son of a captain is not a ticket into the cadetship like some imply.

Some of the people I know didn't get into the cadetship the first time and so worked multiple day and night jobs to pay to get their commercial licence and apply later.

In every industry there are cadesthip programs, scholarship programs and many industries are much worse than aviation. The cadets still have to pass exams and flying tests to get into the program, they didn't just get a red carpet rolled out for them. The opportunity was there for everyone to apply. If you chose not to apply on moral grounds then live with your decision, don't take it out on the people who saw an opportunity and took it.

Cadets make up a minority of pilots at Qantas. If you sit up nights plotting ways to detroy them then you're wasting your time.

[M.25]

So where will the future captains come from if they use cadets in the RHS?

[*Lancer*]

One of the best posts in a long time Toblerone.

[podbreak]

Bitter, twisted. Lets move on...

Ratter, what an outdated view. Welcome to reality, many airlines take only cadets. In fact I heard Manning himself even mooted this as a future prospect for QF. EVERY industry has a form of advantage in the way of scholarships and cadetships. Any young pilot can apply for a cadetship. If they don't get in, thats tuff luck. I won't dwell on this because if you cannot accept the way it is, its your problem (try reading Iinthesky's post again, pretty much sums it up).

DM, can you explain the 'perth incident' in a little more detail? Exactly how does this demonstrate the uselessness of cadets? If all young pilots should get this bush experience, what of the Air Force boys and gals? are they too being 'carried'?

Please don't mistake my support of cadets, I too was skeptical of the program. I do however, work with cadets. None that I have seen are in any way carried. There is no issue among the majority of QF pilots with cadets, and i'd suggest the bulk of those here who are so critical in their opinions of this lot have never flown or worked with QF cadets (I cannot speak for other airlines, obviously).

As its been said before, lets bury this issue, its dividing and destructive.

[Over and gout]

Originally Posted by lahso29

WHO CARES WHAT TYPE OF PILOT CADETS ARE?????
THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.
SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”
IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????
HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS
WHAT A JOKE

Agreed ! The sooner people stop buying a job the better....

[Toblerone]

Originally Posted by lahso29

WHO CARES WHAT TYPE OF PILOT CADETS ARE?????

THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.

SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”

IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????

HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS

WHAT A JOKE

let me guess...... you failed the psych test

[Tempo]

Sitting here now reading some of the above posts, I wonder...looking back when you took that first step to gaining your licence was your thinking "Geeze I cant wait to get out there and get my CPL, leave family and friends in search of a job, work in bars/servos etc whilst struggling to pay the rent and buy an occasional beer whilst looking for first job, finally get job and work ring out flying clapped out singles in the bush for little more or less than working in bars/servos, have to go back and beg for servo/bar job back because casual flying wage is not paying the bills, finally get paid full time, finally get enough experience to get onto twins, getting twin time, having to find another job when company goes bust, dealing with bosses intent on breaking every rule possible, finally getting a bit of turbine time and MAYBE one day I will get to where I want and fly a jet for some good coin. Anyway, here is my 50K fingers crossed"

Or, on the other side of the coin, apply for a cadetship, do CPL, get a job in a good aircraft with pay that probably takes a 3-4 years to reach in GA, get to live in a reasonable city and are pretty much guaranteed a job flying internationally on a nice shiny (albiet a bit old these days) jet.

For me, the cadet program was not available when I started my training but I can almost guarantee that I would have taken the option at the time. I had to go through option 1 and looking back now I enjoyed it (but everyone always remembers the good times) but honestly, who would knock back option 2 given the choice before they started training.

I dont think that Qantas/QL etc owes anyone a job in this country. Sure its not Europe and we probably dont need a cadet program but thats the choice made by Qantas and its probably here for a long time. Doing thousands of hours in the bush is not automatically a right to get a job ahead of someone applying for the cadet program...why..beause Qantas are the ones handing out the jobs and its their choice.

I know and work with plenty of cadets and they are all great guys and dont take anything for granted. They should not feel 'grateful' for their jobs more than anyone else in the industry...they applied for a job and got it. Good luck to them.

As far as the bashing about the flying skills go, well on that one I cant judge. I have flown with a number of Captains who went throught the cadet program and they are no different than anyone else.

Anyway, thats my rant....am off to watch some cricket.

[Ratter]

Hi Podbreak, I agree that my train of thought may be somewhat outdated. However, my frustration stems from the fact that i have worked very hard, often in not very nice places to gain the experience that QL have been requiring to be considered. To then be told that after 6 years in the industry that i am placed in the same bucket as a 200 hour pilot just because they were a part of the cadetship doesn't fill me with joy. I agree that people are not owed jobs but i think that there are many out there that are deserving of an opportunity to try for a job with QL..... to be passed up because the quota is being filled by cadets is not something i find very fair. If Qantas cannot find enough turboprop places in GA for "industry based experience" then perhaps there should be less cadets.
I am sure that the cadets are great people.... as i said in my earlier post i do not like the cadetship, the people are not the problem it is the program.
A very good point raised though, where will QL find the captains of the future... i guess that means that QL captains will most likely passed over for a chance with mainline, after all.. they won't want to end up short of captains in QL.
Am interested to see what the future holds.
Safe flying
Ratter

[LookinDown]

Reality checks

Thank goodness for the reality checks by a number of informed posters. The smell of rancid sour grapes was becoming just too overpowering.

To reiterate some of the positive points made re cadets and the cadetship program…
· They come from a whole range of backgrounds. Some are the sons and daughters of captains but most are not. Some are privileged but most are not. Some have had their hefty training fees or part thereof (Level 1 Cadets up to $100K) paid for them. Most have gone into hoc till they are 65.
· The selection process is protracted, intensive, all encompassing and successful applicants are exceptional people (according to the employer’s selection criteria). He who has the most hours does not win and nor should he. Airlines want a lot more than just ‘hours’.
· There are exceptions to every rule, but of the 7 or 8 cadets that I have come into contact with, none take their role lightly, all work bloody hard, and their temporary employers are very happy with their performance to the point of a number being offered permanent jobs.

And to add a couple of my own…
· Rather than spread cadets, who are compelled to fly for a regional operator for at least 2 years, all around the country in what can be sometimes obscure situations, it makes perfect sense for this time to be done with QL.
· We are talking relatively small numbers of cadet pilots. There'll be minimal impact on progression to the LH seat for others.
· A few years ago cadets would have been given their seniority # and gone straight into mainline as S/Os. Graduates since then have been compelled to fly with regionals. Its not their choice or preference although few would not acknowledge the benefits.
· On expiry of the contract with the regionals, cadets are then out on their own awaiting a course. Many have been not employed in flying for upwards of 6 months and will likely remain this way until Q decides to move. When is anybody’s guess. This wandering in the wilderness is regressive and something that I believe cannot be justified.
· Cadets pay for their endorsements averaging $10K-$20+K.
· Some of the comments by previous posters may have been aimed at the cadetship program but the individuals themselves have been blatantly sideswiped in the process and they do not deserve that.

Badboiblu,
I am saying that there ARE cadets with 200 hrs flying 737s in Oz. There have been numerous references on this site to this being an increasingly common event worldwide, especially in Asia.

[badboiblu]

LookinDown
Can you please tell me one Cadet with 200 hours who is flying as a F/O
on a Qantas 737. Not a Cadet who start with a regional or as a S/O on a 747 a few years ago and now has 2000 hours and is a F/O on a 737.

[LookinDown]

badboiblu,
"Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747?"

Where do you think cadets were first placed prior the reintroduction of the industry placement scheme? As S/Os on 747 (though some might argue this is a fate worse than death).

Yes I can but the 737s aren't operated by 'QANTAS' as such.

[B A Lert]

Originally Posted by LookinDown

......... the 737s aren't operated by 'QANTAS' as such.

Que? What substance have you been using?

[Keg]

ROFLMAO. This thread has been the funniest thing in ages. Thanks for the laugh. It made my night. I just LOVE it when people who wouldn't know me from a brick state certain things about my appreciation for the job, skill level, motivation and any other plethora of attitudes and behaviours simply because I did a cadetship some fifteen and a half years ago. You guys are great.

I won't go as far to state that those who denigrate cadets have failed the psych test....that would be stooping to your level of stupidity. I will state that some contributors need to consider their attitudes before coming up to a psych or an interview with QF. If the attitude is as poisonous as the comments on here suggest then you may struggle to meet the grade on the psych. Of course even if you get through that you still have to contend with the former cadet who may be on the interview panel. I bet you don't have the guts to share your stated thoughts about cadetships then.

Still, it's been a while since THY has come up so perhaps it was time. Thanks again for the giggle.

[Boomerang]

Over and Gout, and Lahso, you guys really need to relax. I have worked my way up through GA and am finally on a jet. It's taken me the best part of 10 years to do it, so what! GA is hard enough without worrying who to blame, or being jealous that someone else was fortunate enough to get your "dream job" via a quicker route. I am currently working with guys straight out of their training. The last aircraft they landed was a Seneca, the next will be an Airbus. Hundreds have gone before them. They haven't bought a job, they have to make it through airline selection and training just like the rest of us, without any guarantees. They are top blokes and have done well to get this far. They have a better attitude and aptitude than other people I know. They were given a chance and took it, well done to them.

[Bouncing Limes]

Hmmmmm...

Lahso29,

I know quite a few cadets from various positions within the program. All are from VERY varied backgrounds. Some are straight out of school, some are moving into their second or third career. Some had the bill footed by their parents, others worked VERY hard to save money so start the program, some borrowed from the QF credit union, some have families or long term relationships... but ALL of them appreciate the opportunity. I've heard of a couple that have slipped through the cracks, but statistically speaking, that's bound to happen with anything. I'm sure you've met your fair share of chicken feeders in your time too.

Why would a company take on a cadet? Well, they can work just as productively as a 'hard yard' FO, and check to line hours between the two paths aren't too skewed towards any expected results. You will hang onto the tail for the first few sectors due to the speed that things happen at. The same will happen when you move from a turbo prop onto a jet. Taking a step from single pilot to multi crew is a big step for anyone too, and the cadetship focuses on multi crew ops. Cadets don't get upgraded in their industry placement. The company who they are placed with will therefore have a competent FO that won't jump ship for two years.

Those 6 FOs in QL will be replaced in two years time by another 6 cadet FOs (assuming that the company doesn't want or need a larger number for their future plans), so it's a perpetual system. The company then has sufficient stability in the QF FOs to plan for future growth (for what it's worth in this volatile industry), which they will use YOU for.

They will still need FOs who have done the 'hard yards' as you put it, and these FOs will need to have more hours of a certain variety for a future command. These companies will recruit YOU for a future command position, not just to be a career FO.

Please don't confuse this issue with 'job stealing'. You have not earned a position in an airline because you had a job doing more 'hard yards' than someone else. What if someone with 2000 hours got a job in the RHS of a Dash 8, when you applied with 3500 hours? What if an ex RAAFy, who also hasn't done the 'hard yards', stole your job? How do you feel when someone with 500 hours gets into Virgin/QF ahead of you?

I'm sure that you have learned a lot about flying and yourself, and your experiences have made you a better person. That's great. But you can develop as a person by doing other things too. Traveling, working in various professional and non professional fields (physiotherapy, accounting, police force, cinema projectionist, hell even a McDonalds manager, etc), having a family, holding down three to five non flying jobs, going to uni, etc. Anything that challenges you to manage your time, interact with different people and to step up and face problems will make you appreciate what's behind you, and what's in front of you. And it will better prepare you for the next time life throws a curve ball. But enough of my sober philosophical thought processes...

Being a crew member of a modern jet is not all about flying. In fact, modern autopilots can fly the thing more efficiently and with more finesse than the most experienced QF cadet in the company (had to throw that in ). They are designed so 200 hour pilots can fly them (been happening in Europe for years). It's about managing a complex piece of machinery and getting the best out of the people that work in and around it (that holds true for ANY multi crew operation). In an abnormal situation, each crew member has a different skill set of life experiences to draw on when brain storming on possible solutions. The confidence to discuss options openly with peers and superiors and then make decisions to deal with the situation comes from LIFE experience, not necessarily FLYING experience. People and time management skills are becoming exponentially more necessary to operate these things and that's why airlines look well past the log book, and really want to know what you're about and what makes you tick.

But really, if you aren't enjoying this industry, then leave it. I'm sure that you will soon find (as I believe someone has already pointed out) that EVERY industry has many avenues to achieving the same goal - you just have to live with the decision that YOU make. Getting blindly worked up about something you have limited knowledge of and no control over is a waste of energy.

Good day to you, sir.

[bullamakanka]

Isnt the Dash 8 is quite a manual aircraft compared to most modern jets that cadets usually go into? How do the guys who fly them think the lower time cadets will go. I am not trying to give these guys a hard time, just wondering.

Do you think the travelling public will care/know that low hour guys are up the front?

B

[astroboy55]

Bouncing Limes,
That is probably the best post I have ever read regarding this topic. I only hope everyone can take something away from it.
Well said mate.

[womble006]

Bouncing Lines, well said

[GUARD]

I have trained Qantas cadets and currently fly the Dash-8.

The cadets responded very well indeed at the IFR level and really came into their own during LOFT training and demonstrated that they are a cut above the average.

I have followed their progress through to mainline and they seem to perform as well as anyone else in the system.

However, in response to Bullamakanka's question of how they will go in the Dash, I would have to say it might be with some difficulty. Not so much from an operational multi-crew role but our type of flying can be distinguished at night with a few thunderies around and conducting an NDB to the minima and maybe even circling off it and then a missed approach to somewhere else. The reason is that not all Captains are trainers ( obviously ) and after 4 or 5 sectors they may not have the spare capacity to be monitoring someone quite junior. Sometimes its enough just to do your own job either flying or offering good support. It doesn't take much for the whole thing to start to get out of shape.

I'm not trying to make the job out to be dark and stormy heroics but it can be quite tough and sometimes you have to draw on everything from your experience base just to get in somewhere. If you don't have an experience base then.....who knows!

Its certainly not a clear cut scenario.

And just to clarify, cadets don't start their training with seniority numbers and its a very very competetive process with significant demands imposed that a lot of typical GA guys would have some difficulty meeting.

GUARD