Exodus from Skippers (Merged)
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aircraft, get your hand off it mate. You are only making yourself look like a bigger and bigger fool 
We all know that there is nothing worse in this world then lining the pockets of a greedy, underworked pig of a pilot. I mean hell, who do they think they are
. There are sooo many of them on this site that know absolutley nothing of what they talk about.
If it was more viable for skippers to park up aircraft, loose contracts or just close shop, as it was to pay the crew more then they would have. The chances are that the managers new for years that this was coming and had budgeted accordingly for it. For as long as it wasn't being asked for, great.
Some of the 'other similar' companies you speak of followed suit within days. I find it hard to believe that they all found the payrise unexpected and unaffordable.
We all know that there is nothing worse in this world then lining the pockets of a greedy, underworked pig of a pilot. I mean hell, who do they think they are
. There are sooo many of them on this site that know absolutley nothing of what they talk about.If it was more viable for skippers to park up aircraft, loose contracts or just close shop, as it was to pay the crew more then they would have. The chances are that the managers new for years that this was coming and had budgeted accordingly for it. For as long as it wasn't being asked for, great.
Some of the 'other similar' companies you speak of followed suit within days. I find it hard to believe that they all found the payrise unexpected and unaffordable.
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More SA Captains dropping in to the "other Operators" for a chat about jobs prospects, they have mentioned T&C's as their greatest issue, a fair pay without the strings.
How else can this madness end ?, will SW own some shineys new terminals and hangars to the north in the next 12 months, and a couple of dozens turbo props, highly probable, they already have most of SA's experienced staff on the payroll.
Seems like the cheapest and most effective way to neuter the competition.
How else can this madness end ?, will SW own some shineys new terminals and hangars to the north in the next 12 months, and a couple of dozens turbo props, highly probable, they already have most of SA's experienced staff on the payroll.
Seems like the cheapest and most effective way to neuter the competition.
Dog,
You are absolutely right.
The operator(s) that lead the way with T&C's, (Real T&C's) not the underhanded crap we have seen so far, will save their business.
The others will be left to fight over what little remains!
You are absolutely right.
The operator(s) that lead the way with T&C's, (Real T&C's) not the underhanded crap we have seen so far, will save their business.
The others will be left to fight over what little remains!
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Aircraft Said:[QUOTE]It is quite normal for a business to have to close down as a result of changed economic circumstances - it happens all the time (aviation or not). As aviation businesses usually run on razor thin profits it doesn't take much of a change to send them to the wall.
Well i think that most people would agree with this,but seeing as "economic conditions" have not changed there must be some other reason for the apparent demise of Skippers.
We are quite often seeing, on this forum, problems with Rex and Skippers but there does'nt appear to be the same amount of gripes for other operators! Just wondering if there are any thoughts as to why!
Maxweight
Well i think that most people would agree with this,but seeing as "economic conditions" have not changed there must be some other reason for the apparent demise of Skippers.
We are quite often seeing, on this forum, problems with Rex and Skippers but there does'nt appear to be the same amount of gripes for other operators! Just wondering if there are any thoughts as to why!
Maxweight
Maxweight said:
The big change in the economic circumstances was the escalation of demand for pilots - this started about two years ago.
Well i think that most people would agree with this,but seeing as "economic conditions" have not changed there must be some other reason for the apparent demise of Skippers.
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The economic circumstance was that pilots T&Cs got left behind 2 years ago for the so called pilot demand.
A modest payrise 2 years ago (lets say somewhere between 10-20 thousand), would have kept a fair wack of the crew (some will always leave), and it would have still been cheaper then the expense of training. The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.
Some people would forego some of the pay increase for a little recognition and respect (something that is lost these days). A movie ticket or a bottle of wine is cheaper then a payrise and goes a long way to better moral. A sincere 'thankyou' for a last min roster change, going out of your way to make a situation easier ect is a cost to the company of nothing. Yep, that's correct respect is FREE.
I cant believe i've been suckered in
A modest payrise 2 years ago (lets say somewhere between 10-20 thousand), would have kept a fair wack of the crew (some will always leave), and it would have still been cheaper then the expense of training. The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.
Some people would forego some of the pay increase for a little recognition and respect (something that is lost these days). A movie ticket or a bottle of wine is cheaper then a payrise and goes a long way to better moral. A sincere 'thankyou' for a last min roster change, going out of your way to make a situation easier ect is a cost to the company of nothing. Yep, that's correct respect is FREE.
I cant believe i've been suckered in
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Claiming :
, sounds very much like someone trying to draw the attention away from their very own serious inadequacies.
Misogynism and paternalism are dead in this day and age.
I'm not getting what i want, he must be a misogynist. Have you stopped to consider the sum of your actions, the poor relationships held with your fellow employees/management as a reason for not progressing ?.
Burn't their Bra's in the 70's to become equal, not sure equal is good enough it would appear, is that the case ?.
Misogynist Mick must be seething with impotent rage
Misogynism and paternalism are dead in this day and age.
I'm not getting what i want, he must be a misogynist. Have you stopped to consider the sum of your actions, the poor relationships held with your fellow employees/management as a reason for not progressing ?.
Burn't their Bra's in the 70's to become equal, not sure equal is good enough it would appear, is that the case ?.
Last edited by Shed Dog Tosser; 13th Sep 2007 at 13:35. Reason: red wine spelling errors
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Can't see it happening. I've heard of a few here and there signing them but on the whole, I'd say most haven't and will not sign it.
Ask for the bonus to put to into the AWA, ask for the payrise (and back pay) for the wage increase that everyone should have got in Dec 2006. Ask for a 28 day notice period, the same as every other employer in the country. Funnily enough, if you are made redundant and have been in the company a while, the notice the company has to give you is 28 days.
What's good for the goose...
Ask for the bonus to put to into the AWA, ask for the payrise (and back pay) for the wage increase that everyone should have got in Dec 2006. Ask for a 28 day notice period, the same as every other employer in the country. Funnily enough, if you are made redundant and have been in the company a while, the notice the company has to give you is 28 days.
What's good for the goose...
Monopole said:
I have to pick you up on a couple of things you said there.
Firstly, this "modest payrise" which would have "kept a fair wack of the crew". What is your definition of "kept"? Is it retained forever or something like stayed on until having completed 5 years service?
To cause somebody to want to stay forever, the pay rise would have to be way, way more than $20K - it would have to be at least $100K. For this reason, I suspect you mean something like the latter definition.
But would $20K be enough to inspire a person to pass up the offer of a job with Skywest, Jetstar or Virgin to remain on the clapped out old Conquest/Metro/Dash 8 for another few years? I don't think so.
I think not even $30K or $40K would be enough. The major concern, to such a person, if offered the opportunity to move up, would be that the opportunity may not still be there in a few years time - hence they would feel they have to take it now.
How about $50K or $60K? Well, maybe now some pilots will begin to think about not taking up the offer to move up. Not such a modest payrise any more - but could the company afford this? And how would the Flight Attendants, engineers and various others feel about the pilots getting a $50-60K pay rise?
As for:
You're not the first to say this. Expressed in those words, it sounds so simple, but in reality, this is not so simple.
The clients you refer to would be the mining companies. You could not be referring to the RPT passengers, because for them, the fare increases would have to be at least $500 per ticket, and with that, almost all of them would choose instead to drive or take the bus.
But the arrangement with the mining companies are contracts, negotiated months or years earlier. Think you can just up the pilot wages then send invoices out to the mining companies to cover the cost? That would be like a painter, having reached an agreement with you on the price to paint your house, coming to you half way through the job and asking for an extra $500 because he wants to give himself and his assistant a pay rise.
I can believe the contracts allow for the passing on of fuel price and security surcharge increases, but not salary increases.
So, the only way to pass on salary increase costs is to: wait until the current contract expires, then when bidding to renew the contract, add in the extra costs.
But of course, you wouldn't try to pass on all the extra costs to the one contract. You would plan to plan to win/renew certain future contracts so the costs would then be divided up between those contracts.
But, what if, 1-2 years later, you haven't won/rewewed all the contracts you were banking on, but have awarded the pilots the not so modest pay rise?
A modest payrise 2 years ago (lets say somewhere between 10-20 thousand), would have kept a fair wack of the crew (some will always leave), and it would have still been cheaper then the expense of training. The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.
Firstly, this "modest payrise" which would have "kept a fair wack of the crew". What is your definition of "kept"? Is it retained forever or something like stayed on until having completed 5 years service?
To cause somebody to want to stay forever, the pay rise would have to be way, way more than $20K - it would have to be at least $100K. For this reason, I suspect you mean something like the latter definition.
But would $20K be enough to inspire a person to pass up the offer of a job with Skywest, Jetstar or Virgin to remain on the clapped out old Conquest/Metro/Dash 8 for another few years? I don't think so.
I think not even $30K or $40K would be enough. The major concern, to such a person, if offered the opportunity to move up, would be that the opportunity may not still be there in a few years time - hence they would feel they have to take it now.
How about $50K or $60K? Well, maybe now some pilots will begin to think about not taking up the offer to move up. Not such a modest payrise any more - but could the company afford this? And how would the Flight Attendants, engineers and various others feel about the pilots getting a $50-60K pay rise?
As for:
The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.
The clients you refer to would be the mining companies. You could not be referring to the RPT passengers, because for them, the fare increases would have to be at least $500 per ticket, and with that, almost all of them would choose instead to drive or take the bus.
But the arrangement with the mining companies are contracts, negotiated months or years earlier. Think you can just up the pilot wages then send invoices out to the mining companies to cover the cost? That would be like a painter, having reached an agreement with you on the price to paint your house, coming to you half way through the job and asking for an extra $500 because he wants to give himself and his assistant a pay rise.
I can believe the contracts allow for the passing on of fuel price and security surcharge increases, but not salary increases.
So, the only way to pass on salary increase costs is to: wait until the current contract expires, then when bidding to renew the contract, add in the extra costs.
But of course, you wouldn't try to pass on all the extra costs to the one contract. You would plan to plan to win/renew certain future contracts so the costs would then be divided up between those contracts.
But, what if, 1-2 years later, you haven't won/rewewed all the contracts you were banking on, but have awarded the pilots the not so modest pay rise?
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Aircraft,
WRONG, Just heard of a Braz Capt at Network who knocked back an F100 F/O slot at Alliance because he wasn't prepared to take the $20K a year pay cut. So already the pay rise has paid off for Network and retained a pilot.
Secondly, These Pilot's at Skippers and Network are probably doing about 800hrs per year. To give them a $20 grand pay rise is $25 per hour. The average return flight time in a Bras to the average mine site is say 5.0hrs. This equates to $125. Divide that by 60seats (30 each way) and you get a price increase of $2.08 per passenger. Not quite the $500 you talk about. Even to give the piss ant F/O the same pay rise is only $4.16 per passenger....NOT VERY MUCH IN MY BOOKS
Cheers
WRONG, Just heard of a Braz Capt at Network who knocked back an F100 F/O slot at Alliance because he wasn't prepared to take the $20K a year pay cut. So already the pay rise has paid off for Network and retained a pilot.
Secondly, These Pilot's at Skippers and Network are probably doing about 800hrs per year. To give them a $20 grand pay rise is $25 per hour. The average return flight time in a Bras to the average mine site is say 5.0hrs. This equates to $125. Divide that by 60seats (30 each way) and you get a price increase of $2.08 per passenger. Not quite the $500 you talk about. Even to give the piss ant F/O the same pay rise is only $4.16 per passenger....NOT VERY MUCH IN MY BOOKS
Cheers
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will SW own some shineys new terminals and hangars to the north in the next 12 months
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Aircraft you are more wound up than a slinkey sunshine!
I wonder how the pilots at Skippers felt when the engineers got a big payrise??
Xr100, I agree with what you are saying, I know a few piston drivers on good $ that have turned down a turbine f/o position.
I wonder how the pilots at Skippers felt when the engineers got a big payrise??
Xr100, I agree with what you are saying, I know a few piston drivers on good $ that have turned down a turbine f/o position.
Just a quick Q for the guys in the loop.
What are the chances of being picked up by Skippers doing either the WAAC CPL course and the ECU Aviation degree?
In a bit of a pickle and cant decide which is better to do? i know skippers dont pay the best but hey you get to fly in WA, with reasonbly good aircraft.
Cheers
What are the chances of being picked up by Skippers doing either the WAAC CPL course and the ECU Aviation degree?
In a bit of a pickle and cant decide which is better to do? i know skippers dont pay the best but hey you get to fly in WA, with reasonbly good aircraft.
Cheers
ing bush then try for a job at SA like the rest of us did
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kair, I'd love to have you as a parent. I can just hear all the "back in my day..." ramblings spewing forth with the kid just looking up at you thinking "times have changed since then but I'll just wait for them to stop". I see that look in their eyes when I do the "back in..." stuff myself.
Times are changing and needing to go bush seems to be becoming less of a need. I did it and most of the people I know did too but less and less people now look at the Slingair's of the world as a necessesity anymore.
Not sure whether it's for better or worse, it's just evolution of the time.
Times are changing and needing to go bush seems to be becoming less of a need. I did it and most of the people I know did too but less and less people now look at the Slingair's of the world as a necessesity anymore.
Not sure whether it's for better or worse, it's just evolution of the time.