Exodus from Skippers (Merged)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just short of the $100K........
SKIPPERS - DASH / BRASILIA / METRO CAPTAINS
Skippers are currently seeking suitably experienced Dash 8, Brasilia & Metro Captains to fill vacant positions based in Perth.
Remuneration rates commencing at $95k+ for D8 & EMB and $75K+ for M23 fleets are offered based on experience and qualifications. Endorsed applicants are preferred, however applicants possessing multi-crew experience on similar types will also be considered.
Slowly but surely..............
Skippers are currently seeking suitably experienced Dash 8, Brasilia & Metro Captains to fill vacant positions based in Perth.
Remuneration rates commencing at $95k+ for D8 & EMB and $75K+ for M23 fleets are offered based on experience and qualifications. Endorsed applicants are preferred, however applicants possessing multi-crew experience on similar types will also be considered.
Slowly but surely..............
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Out of the furnace...
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is being discussed on the skippers thread starting post #162.
And if they also understood the true nature of commercial aviation
If skippers is at the point where it has less crews than aircraft, it has failed in this basic management task.
Tell me aircraft:- as you, at the grand old age of 23, apparently have a better grasp of the fundementals of aviation than those of us who've been involved for decades, what do YOU think skippers should do to ensure it's aircraft keep flying and it doesn't lose its mining contracts?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Outer-space
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tell me aircraft:- as you, at the grand old age of 23, apparently have a better grasp of the fundementals of aviation than those of us who've been involved for decades, what do YOU think skippers should do to ensure it's aircraft keep flying and it doesn't lose its mining contracts?
Last edited by Gooose; 2nd Sep 2007 at 05:33.
the aviation industry is CRAP!!!!!
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.
i have mates in other industries earning 70K in their first jobs with company cars and loads of other benifits such as company charge cards, all expences paid trips for them and their partners once tarkets have been made, etc.
who are we kidding, we are never going to get the respect, pay and conditions that we deserve. especially when you have little fresh cpl pilots that pay to sit in the right hand seat instead of going bush to get the experience they need to progress through their career.
my 2 cents worth.
LemeL
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.
i have mates in other industries earning 70K in their first jobs with company cars and loads of other benifits such as company charge cards, all expences paid trips for them and their partners once tarkets have been made, etc.
who are we kidding, we are never going to get the respect, pay and conditions that we deserve. especially when you have little fresh cpl pilots that pay to sit in the right hand seat instead of going bush to get the experience they need to progress through their career.
my 2 cents worth.
LemeL
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Outer-space
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
especially when you have little fresh cpl pilots that pay to sit in the right hand seat instead of going bush to get the experience they need to progress through their career.
dont stereotype - some of those cpls in the right hand seat do have time and have gone north, but still were required to pay to sit in the right hand seat
Seasonally Adjusted
the aviation industry is CRAP!!!!!
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.
The problem for these operators is that the supply of willing candidates is fast running out.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South O Equator
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mickster, at the time of last post Network hadn't but since then they have followed suit only on a slightly smaller scale. Shed Dog, either you have a fantastically well placed source at Network or your expereince gazing into the crystal ball really came through because you were spot on but about 5 days ahead of it actually coming to life. 
"I think Lemel was referring to the Skippers cadet program, paid for by their parents and cheeky as ever! "
Brazdriver, that is correct.
Towering Q, I understand what you are saying and it is true. However it still happens even when you get to that airline job! look at jet star. the pay and conditions there are not by any means fantastic. like i said, airlines will exploit the fact that pilots have a true passion for their jobs. the only way this will change is if there is a huge shortage. in my opinion, that huge shortage will never come (the shortage we are experiencing is for experienced drivers, we do however have plenty of low hour pilots floating around).
i hope for all of our sakes that i am wrong!
LemeL
Brazdriver, that is correct.
Towering Q, I understand what you are saying and it is true. However it still happens even when you get to that airline job! look at jet star. the pay and conditions there are not by any means fantastic. like i said, airlines will exploit the fact that pilots have a true passion for their jobs. the only way this will change is if there is a huge shortage. in my opinion, that huge shortage will never come (the shortage we are experiencing is for experienced drivers, we do however have plenty of low hour pilots floating around).
i hope for all of our sakes that i am wrong!
LemeL
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That AWA appears to be a Rope-a-dope, from conversations I've had and overheard with these pilots, I do not think too many are going to sign it in its present form.
Cadet programs do not appear to offer very good outcomes, the logging of ICUS is a huge irregularity that will sooner or later come under some serious scrutiny from CASA ( watch this space ), in much the same way as the intent of the RPT legislation was closely looked at in the past and ruled upon, big changes followed. CPL holders logging ICUS in an above 5700kg pressurised turbine whilst on Charter or RPT. This will add to the woes of this level of the industry.
Cadet programs do not appear to offer very good outcomes, the logging of ICUS is a huge irregularity that will sooner or later come under some serious scrutiny from CASA ( watch this space ), in much the same way as the intent of the RPT legislation was closely looked at in the past and ruled upon, big changes followed. CPL holders logging ICUS in an above 5700kg pressurised turbine whilst on Charter or RPT. This will add to the woes of this level of the industry.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gidday Jet A. Can you explain to me how a cadet or otherwise can log ICUS on line routine flights with a normal line Captain, when only 1 pilot can be nominated as PIC?
For example (as you know), I'm not a training captain. So, as far as I know when an FO flies with me he/she logs all his/her time as FO and 50% goes towards his/her total aeronautical experience or whatever. He or she is NOT the PIC (under supervision or otherwise). He or she is just the pilot manipulating the controls on his or her sector with the PIC (me) making the final decisions as to the disposition of the flight.
The only ICUS I have ever logged was during my upgrade training when under the supervision of my Training Captain. Well, that's the way it works at Qantaslink.
For example (as you know), I'm not a training captain. So, as far as I know when an FO flies with me he/she logs all his/her time as FO and 50% goes towards his/her total aeronautical experience or whatever. He or she is NOT the PIC (under supervision or otherwise). He or she is just the pilot manipulating the controls on his or her sector with the PIC (me) making the final decisions as to the disposition of the flight.
The only ICUS I have ever logged was during my upgrade training when under the supervision of my Training Captain. Well, that's the way it works at Qantaslink.
Hugh Jarse
Mate, this has been debated to death, but it is perfectly legal for a cadet to log ICUS under normal ops if:
1. They hold the minimum of a CPL.
2. They have a command endorsement on type.
3. The company authorises FO’s including cadets to log ICUS. This will usually be spelt out in the company ops manual.
4. The company states that all line captains are authorises to supervise FO’s logging ICUS when the FO’s the pilot flying. This will usually be spelt out as in 3.
Not all companies will have this in place but in those that do it is done on a regular basis. It is widely done in airlines like QF mainline that employ large numbers of cadets. It is obvious why they do do it, because if they didn’t the cadets would never qualify for an ATPL and hence a command. It must also be pointed out that ICUS isn’t PIC. Only one pilot can log PIC and that is the captain.
All this is possible through CAR 5.40. It is a common rule throughout the world in various countries aviation regulations. It was developed by ICAO for airlines so they could employ cadets and low time pilots that under normal circumstances would never qualify for an ATPL due to lack of command hours. ICUS is also known as P1US.
Mate, this has been debated to death, but it is perfectly legal for a cadet to log ICUS under normal ops if:
1. They hold the minimum of a CPL.
2. They have a command endorsement on type.
3. The company authorises FO’s including cadets to log ICUS. This will usually be spelt out in the company ops manual.
4. The company states that all line captains are authorises to supervise FO’s logging ICUS when the FO’s the pilot flying. This will usually be spelt out as in 3.
Not all companies will have this in place but in those that do it is done on a regular basis. It is widely done in airlines like QF mainline that employ large numbers of cadets. It is obvious why they do do it, because if they didn’t the cadets would never qualify for an ATPL and hence a command. It must also be pointed out that ICUS isn’t PIC. Only one pilot can log PIC and that is the captain.
All this is possible through CAR 5.40. It is a common rule throughout the world in various countries aviation regulations. It was developed by ICAO for airlines so they could employ cadets and low time pilots that under normal circumstances would never qualify for an ATPL due to lack of command hours. ICUS is also known as P1US.
5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command;
and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned;
and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;
and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;
and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command;
and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned;
and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;
and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;
and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South O Equator
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can someone please start a dedicated thread to this subject and not keep bringing this up on a multitude of others threads. Driving me crazy seeing and hearing the same stuff on totally non-related threads.
404, start it then finish it cause you seem to have the patience to see the argument through. For that reason I can't start it. It's drive me nuts!!
404, start it then finish it cause you seem to have the patience to see the argument through. For that reason I can't start it. It's drive me nuts!!
404 - I think the issue is that some co-pilots(and not cadets either) have been logging ICUS regardless of requirements of items 3 & 4 that you list. Basically just trying to pad command hours I think!
slice
In which case the CP should pick it up when he/she verifies the log book entries a true representation of the FO’s hours. I personally haven’t seen any company, particularly airlines that take a candidate’s hours and log book entries at face value. They require them to be stamped as true by the candidate’s current company.
In which case the CP should pick it up when he/she verifies the log book entries a true representation of the FO’s hours. I personally haven’t seen any company, particularly airlines that take a candidate’s hours and log book entries at face value. They require them to be stamped as true by the candidate’s current company.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugh Jarse and others:
The ICUS discussion, as 404 mentioned, has been done to death. It rears its ugly head several times a year!
As I remember it, last time the question was posed, it was given a thorough enquiry by JetA (who fortunately came around!).
The ICUS discussion, as 404 mentioned, has been done to death. It rears its ugly head several times a year!
As I remember it, last time the question was posed, it was given a thorough enquiry by JetA (who fortunately came around!).
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like you have something you need to get off your chest?
WRT the advertisment in the Australian for Pilots, it could be misleading, the wages for these guys have not changed eg,
Including Super (9%), the figure are/have been for sometime:
Conq a bit over $53K,
Metro a bit under $60K,
Bras a bit over $63K,
Dash 8 $72 odd and $75 odd.
These figure do not appear changed.
So the figures quotes in the advertisement are inclusive of:
1) base salaries as above,
2) $10-25K odd dollar "productivity bonus", not sure if its paid weekly, yearly, it does not even specifically rate a mention in the "Base Remuneration", so it is not a "salary", being a bonus, it could be withdrawn at any time.
3) Superannuation, so subtract 9% from all the above figures.
If you are concerned, perhaps you should give Rick Burton at the TWU a call: 0417 914 108, if you are not sure who he is, read the NJS/Cobham threads.
Last edited by Shed Dog Tosser; 5th Sep 2007 at 09:10.