The Pilot Shortage is coming!!!
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Des,
yes, you are quite correct.
With the large number of boneheads taking the easy option and getting Mumsy and dadda to pay for their cadetship, it makes the prospects for those that left the teet for long enough to gain some solid GA experience (command time) all that much better.
That is my point.
What future does a cadet (copilot) have without command experience ?, you need command experience to be in command of a bigger aircraft, yet your time in command of little aeroplanes is a requirement to be in command of the big ones.
And yes, GA experience is obviously needed for future airline crewing ( especiallly for command candidates ), yes there are infact cultural differences between GA and RPT, but that difference is not a huge hurdle.
yes, you are quite correct.
With the large number of boneheads taking the easy option and getting Mumsy and dadda to pay for their cadetship, it makes the prospects for those that left the teet for long enough to gain some solid GA experience (command time) all that much better.
That is my point.
What future does a cadet (copilot) have without command experience ?, you need command experience to be in command of a bigger aircraft, yet your time in command of little aeroplanes is a requirement to be in command of the big ones.
And yes, GA experience is obviously needed for future airline crewing ( especiallly for command candidates ), yes there are infact cultural differences between GA and RPT, but that difference is not a huge hurdle.
Metrosexual
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The only way things will change is if ex airline pilots go back into GA and are ALLOWED to implement proper practices,
My argument was: "You wouldn't take your ABC airliner into the air with that item - so don't ask me to".
Another illusion i am sorry to shatter for you MBA, is that all GA pilots and operators are NOT rule breaking, minima busting, NON-SOP adhereing hacks, humps or chumps.
And remember, when you slander GA crews, that includes the RFDS, Air Ambulance and quite a few >5700kg jet and turboprop operators who have solid CAR217 organisations, and adhere strictly with the rules, regs etc etc.
I have to ask: If the sort of non-compliance was going on 30 years ago, what did YOU do to stop it?? Or did you just hurry the hell up to get out, think 'That's GA' and leave that sorry state of affairs for the people coming in behind you?
You managed to progess from GA to an airline operation - what makes you think others are incapable? Or does that capability cease once a pilot passes '500 hrs' in GA??
Last edited by Jet_A_Knight; 24th Apr 2007 at 09:04.
Hey SDT,
Do you take your hand off the old fella long enough to shift that chip from shoulder to shoulder?
What a load of dribble.
M
Do you take your hand off the old fella long enough to shift that chip from shoulder to shoulder?
What a load of dribble.
M
Last edited by mmmbop; 24th Apr 2007 at 11:10.
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Jet A knight
You have echoed what I would have said about MBA747 ,He is extremely out of touch or has had no experience in GA .
I Previously worked in supplementary Airline and I am now back in a GA and I believe the company SOPs I work under now are much stricker than the previous company.
As for there being a shortage , a mate of mine that works in the North west told me the other day that the company he works for (which is one of the largest single operators) will have to start to advertise as they have no one on their hold file .He said this would be a first time for this company.
Regards The Dog
You have echoed what I would have said about MBA747 ,He is extremely out of touch or has had no experience in GA .
I Previously worked in supplementary Airline and I am now back in a GA and I believe the company SOPs I work under now are much stricker than the previous company.
As for there being a shortage , a mate of mine that works in the North west told me the other day that the company he works for (which is one of the largest single operators) will have to start to advertise as they have no one on their hold file .He said this would be a first time for this company.
Regards The Dog
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[QUOTEYou don't have to extrapolate too far to realize that having worked towards the lowest accident rates(historically)we may see some reversal of the trends when Airline Capt's find themselves becoming single pilot operations when the workload increases simply because the new F/O is overloaded][/QUOTE]
An interesting point of view. However, I think the extra workload on the captain is offest to a large degree by the current and future airline policy to avoid hand flying at all costs and instead make sure there is almost total reliance on automatics from 500 ft after take off to very short final.
With pin-point navigational accuracy, superb autothrottles and brilliant MAP displays coupled with ATC radar, then the chances of the captain being caused a problem by a new inexperienced first officer is minimal. BUT - fail one of those links in the safety chain then that is where you wish you had an experienced ex GA pilot in the RH seat.
An interesting point of view. However, I think the extra workload on the captain is offest to a large degree by the current and future airline policy to avoid hand flying at all costs and instead make sure there is almost total reliance on automatics from 500 ft after take off to very short final.
With pin-point navigational accuracy, superb autothrottles and brilliant MAP displays coupled with ATC radar, then the chances of the captain being caused a problem by a new inexperienced first officer is minimal. BUT - fail one of those links in the safety chain then that is where you wish you had an experienced ex GA pilot in the RH seat.
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mmmdrip,
no chips here buddy, just stating my opinion, happy doing what i'm doing and find it laughable that the user pays industry ruining ICUS paying cadet scabs think they'll get a free ride off daddies cheque book, guess again (all my personal opinion).
no chips here buddy, just stating my opinion, happy doing what i'm doing and find it laughable that the user pays industry ruining ICUS paying cadet scabs think they'll get a free ride off daddies cheque book, guess again (all my personal opinion).
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SDT love your narrow view..
mmmdrip,
<Quote>no chips here buddy, just stating my opinion, happy doing what i'm doing and find it laughable that the user pays industry ruining ICUS paying cadet scabs think they'll get a free ride off daddies cheque book, guess again (all my personal opinion)<Quote>
So does that mean all cadets are 17-19yrs old? free ride of daddies cheque book?
But when I did my course most of the 8/10 of the cadets where LEAVING I say again LEAVING GA to do the course. Ohh and Ive almost paid my parents loan 4 yrs after leaving school (I was 17) and I log ICUS and if the chance comes up would go fly a multi(or single be it that) to earn more command time but the pay wouldnt pay my bills...Get the point !!
So if there's cadets you dont like deal with it, after all some of QANTAS's most senior crew's were once cadets (p.s I dont work for QANTAS)
mmmdrip,
<Quote>no chips here buddy, just stating my opinion, happy doing what i'm doing and find it laughable that the user pays industry ruining ICUS paying cadet scabs think they'll get a free ride off daddies cheque book, guess again (all my personal opinion)<Quote>
So does that mean all cadets are 17-19yrs old? free ride of daddies cheque book?
But when I did my course most of the 8/10 of the cadets where LEAVING I say again LEAVING GA to do the course. Ohh and Ive almost paid my parents loan 4 yrs after leaving school (I was 17) and I log ICUS and if the chance comes up would go fly a multi(or single be it that) to earn more command time but the pay wouldnt pay my bills...Get the point !! So if there's cadets you dont like deal with it, after all some of QANTAS's most senior crew's were once cadets (p.s I dont work for QANTAS)
Last edited by bodex666; 24th Apr 2007 at 11:20.
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Keg
I agree - but perhaps the concerns about low experience levels of junior is somewhat justified when they turn up with less than 300hrs TT (gained over an extended period) to copilot a 43000 lb turboprop with 50 oblivious pax aboard.
So how about we start with a more sound premise that avoiding prangs isn't just about experience.
Remember the debate a number of years ago concerning the demise of Flight Engineers ? Many sound arguments were put foward in favour of retaining them, but they still went the way of the dinasour.
A highly automated modern airliner with GPWS, TCAS, FMS etc requires less and less flying skill but needs careful management to stay on top of things. On the Airbus, provided all the computers are working, I can't overstress the airframe, stall, or exceed VNE. Fuel, pressurisation, electrics all look after themselves. If something goes wrong, a list of things to do apears on a screen. I can engage the autopilot at 200' and need only take over again shortly before touchdown. The landing still takes skill in difficult conditions, but if you can learn to do it in a light aircraft you can learn to do it in a jet.
The skills required are getting narrower and more focused. Most of the decisions are taken by other people and the pilots mearly carry them out.
Future training will take all this into account and produce a suitable operator, hence the new Multi Pilot Licence. The pilots in my company who had the easiest transition to jets were those that came from the regionals and were flying multi crew, they required less sectors of line training and got upgraded quicker to the left seat.
One of our captains was involved in ab initio cadet training for an airline and freely admitted that the pilots produced wouldn't have been able to go out and do a charter flight in a light twin, but they fitted well into the airline system.
More specialised and narrowly focused training is the way things are going to be in future. Emergencies will have been practised in the sim rather than experienced for real in pistons and turbo props.
I hope it all works out when something totally unprepared for happens, eg 747 cargo hold door blows out in flight, 737 loses roof etc.
A highly automated modern airliner with GPWS, TCAS, FMS etc requires less and less flying skill but needs careful management to stay on top of things. On the Airbus, provided all the computers are working, I can't overstress the airframe, stall, or exceed VNE. Fuel, pressurisation, electrics all look after themselves. If something goes wrong, a list of things to do apears on a screen. I can engage the autopilot at 200' and need only take over again shortly before touchdown. The landing still takes skill in difficult conditions, but if you can learn to do it in a light aircraft you can learn to do it in a jet.
The skills required are getting narrower and more focused. Most of the decisions are taken by other people and the pilots mearly carry them out.
Future training will take all this into account and produce a suitable operator, hence the new Multi Pilot Licence. The pilots in my company who had the easiest transition to jets were those that came from the regionals and were flying multi crew, they required less sectors of line training and got upgraded quicker to the left seat.
One of our captains was involved in ab initio cadet training for an airline and freely admitted that the pilots produced wouldn't have been able to go out and do a charter flight in a light twin, but they fitted well into the airline system.
More specialised and narrowly focused training is the way things are going to be in future. Emergencies will have been practised in the sim rather than experienced for real in pistons and turbo props.
I hope it all works out when something totally unprepared for happens, eg 747 cargo hold door blows out in flight, 737 loses roof etc.
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no chips here buddy, just stating my opinion, happy doing what i'm doing and find it laughable that the user pays industry ruining ICUS paying cadet scabs think they'll get a free ride off daddies cheque book, guess again (all my personal opinion).
One of our captains was involved in ab initio cadet training for an airline and freely admitted that the pilots produced wouldn't have been able to go out and do a charter flight in a light twin, but they fitted well into the airline system.
More specialised and narrowly focused training is the way things are going to be in future. Emergencies will have been practised in the sim rather than experienced for real in pistons and turbo props.
More specialised and narrowly focused training is the way things are going to be in future. Emergencies will have been practised in the sim rather than experienced for real in pistons and turbo props.
Last edited by podbreak; 25th Apr 2007 at 01:08.
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Bitter and twisted rant, surely you can do better than that.
Why are T&C's in our industry taking a huge down turn, one of the major reasons is due to the large number of indiviuals that are prepared to pay their way into the work place ( buy a job ).
They will work for less and everytime we are sitting in the LH seat eating the fish, many of these ethically challenged are just waiting to drag your carcass out of their command seat.
The guys that have/are working their way through the industry, gaining usefull experience are generally much more respectfull and much more likely to stand united with their pilot body.
Lets no go into the whole 89 thing, but we do not have a leg to stand on when we negotiate our T&C's, why ?, because far too many willing to climb over our barely twitching remains.
Why are T&C's in our industry taking a huge down turn, one of the major reasons is due to the large number of indiviuals that are prepared to pay their way into the work place ( buy a job ).
They will work for less and everytime we are sitting in the LH seat eating the fish, many of these ethically challenged are just waiting to drag your carcass out of their command seat.
The guys that have/are working their way through the industry, gaining usefull experience are generally much more respectfull and much more likely to stand united with their pilot body.
Lets no go into the whole 89 thing, but we do not have a leg to stand on when we negotiate our T&C's, why ?, because far too many willing to climb over our barely twitching remains.
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Absurd
Yes I can do better than that, but I'm not going to sit here and argue with someone who clearly has personal issue with cadets. Put it to bed, this is an old arguement, they are here to stay, get used to it.
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I have trained many cadet pilots to become First officers and then much later Captains, also experienced GA/ commuter pilots to do the same. They both do their jobs very well in the end, the end standards are supposed to be the same after all. Obviously the main difference is experience. The guy with more experience is likely to be able to think outside the box and handle more complex situations earlier in his career than someone with less experience. That is why most airlines have a min experience requirement for command and not just seniority in the company. Ideally then, cadet pilots will spend more time in the right seat gaining that experience, than an already experienced ex-ga pilot.
eg. A 3 year GA pilot will have had a lot of experience dealing with a vast array of issues applicable to keeping himself safe, and legal, often against the wishes of his boss or clients.
A 3 year cadet will have been some what protected from the above issues by the airline system and his Captain. However he/she will have been watching how these problems are resolved by others around them while gaining experience with the aircraft and routes they will probably later have to fly as Captain.
Both pilots will have to learn the skills and experience that the other has before they will be ready for a command. Until that time they both have strengths and weaknesses which is why they will be in the right seat flying with a Captain.
eg. A 3 year GA pilot will have had a lot of experience dealing with a vast array of issues applicable to keeping himself safe, and legal, often against the wishes of his boss or clients.
A 3 year cadet will have been some what protected from the above issues by the airline system and his Captain. However he/she will have been watching how these problems are resolved by others around them while gaining experience with the aircraft and routes they will probably later have to fly as Captain.
Both pilots will have to learn the skills and experience that the other has before they will be ready for a command. Until that time they both have strengths and weaknesses which is why they will be in the right seat flying with a Captain.
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Experience
A newly qualified CPL holder will still be having difficulty handling the workload of GA flying, and will need to be "looked after" for quite a long time before he stops falling into the traps out there. This is usually the case.
Our airlines and others have been aware of that fact for some time and this is why they insist on minimum experience levels. They use GA as a filter, to the detriment of GA. This is also one of the reasons why the accident rate in GA is too high.
I guess captains will have to be real captains and supervise, teach and mentor.
Our airlines and others have been aware of that fact for some time and this is why they insist on minimum experience levels. They use GA as a filter, to the detriment of GA. This is also one of the reasons why the accident rate in GA is too high.
I guess captains will have to be real captains and supervise, teach and mentor.
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I've said it before and I say again, there is NO substitute for many thousands of hours experience gained in GA or elsewhere before entering the airlines.
In my opinion, highly trained LOW time f/o's should never be preferred over highly trained f/o's with several thousand hours under their belt.
I'm not saying low timers can't get the job done safely when trained properly, but those who have had to make years of command decisions in GA, will always have that experience edge over some newcomer straight out of the academy/factory/school.
Experience is not something you get in 1 or 2 years, it takes many years of exposure to real life situations operating in many different environments.
This debate will likely go on forever and a day as the keen newly trained, low time f/o's maintain they can get the airline job done as safely and as efficiently as the the guy with 'x' thousands of hours gained in the "real world" ie; charter/freight/RPT/military/aeromed etc. Let's hope our enviable safety record remains intact over the next few years !
I know who I'd prefer my family sitting behind if/when the brown stuff hits the fan !
In my opinion, highly trained LOW time f/o's should never be preferred over highly trained f/o's with several thousand hours under their belt.
I'm not saying low timers can't get the job done safely when trained properly, but those who have had to make years of command decisions in GA, will always have that experience edge over some newcomer straight out of the academy/factory/school.
Experience is not something you get in 1 or 2 years, it takes many years of exposure to real life situations operating in many different environments.
This debate will likely go on forever and a day as the keen newly trained, low time f/o's maintain they can get the airline job done as safely and as efficiently as the the guy with 'x' thousands of hours gained in the "real world" ie; charter/freight/RPT/military/aeromed etc. Let's hope our enviable safety record remains intact over the next few years !
I know who I'd prefer my family sitting behind if/when the brown stuff hits the fan !
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The more experience someone has, the less likely they are of stuffing up in their next job. It's true, by having previous employers - they are the ones who have had to put up with pilots making mistakes, which is costing them money. AND pilots do make mistakes, because there are some things you can only learn on the job.
Nowdays, twin and turboprop operators are not going to have the luxury of picking super experienced pilots. They are going to have to employ people with <500hrs multi - and implement a training program which reduces the risk of making mistakes, which would have otherwise been learned in previous employment. That's just the way it is.
Nowdays, twin and turboprop operators are not going to have the luxury of picking super experienced pilots. They are going to have to employ people with <500hrs multi - and implement a training program which reduces the risk of making mistakes, which would have otherwise been learned in previous employment. That's just the way it is.
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How long until salaries for single pilot aeromed and other specialist GA turbine work are higher than FOs on Jetstar/Virgin?
