The Pilot Shortage is coming!!!
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One of them a very nice chap, all of 22, and by all accounts a very skillful operator, made some poor operation decisions one day and flew his metro straight into a hill at over 200kts!
Will964,
Not talking about the lockhart River prang. There have been many CFIT accidents over the years, and the one that I was refering to happened at
Tamworth in 1994!
It was a single pilot Bank Run OP. The safety culture, or lack of it revolved around a mindset that went something like this... "he's endorsed, He's instrument rated, he has a CPL, he gets the job done.
I knew him very well, and as I said a very nice chap. It's probably a pity he didn't have a bit more, how would we say, overall experience in the industry before being thrown into such a high pressure environment.
I didn't know the crew at Lockhart River, But if the young First officer had a bit more, how would we say, overall experience in the industry, allied with a modern safety culture from the operator, then he may have been in a better position to paticipate in the safe recovery of a dangerous situation.
Captains often make mistakes, they are human after all. A good First officer, as part of a well trained crew will have the capacity to recognise a mistake and help to prevent the situation deteriorating.
Not talking about the lockhart River prang. There have been many CFIT accidents over the years, and the one that I was refering to happened at
Tamworth in 1994!
It was a single pilot Bank Run OP. The safety culture, or lack of it revolved around a mindset that went something like this... "he's endorsed, He's instrument rated, he has a CPL, he gets the job done.
I knew him very well, and as I said a very nice chap. It's probably a pity he didn't have a bit more, how would we say, overall experience in the industry before being thrown into such a high pressure environment.
I didn't know the crew at Lockhart River, But if the young First officer had a bit more, how would we say, overall experience in the industry, allied with a modern safety culture from the operator, then he may have been in a better position to paticipate in the safe recovery of a dangerous situation.
Captains often make mistakes, they are human after all. A good First officer, as part of a well trained crew will have the capacity to recognise a mistake and help to prevent the situation deteriorating.
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Interesting that Cobham ( NJS ) are having to advertise ( or do they just like waisting money...................hang on, yeh they do 
), not so long ago they had literally hundreds possibly thousands of applicants on active file.
So maybe a shortage is in the making, that and the B scale conditions at NJS are crap.
), not so long ago they had literally hundreds possibly thousands of applicants on active file.So maybe a shortage is in the making, that and the B scale conditions at NJS are crap.
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Experience shortage
So there's no pilot shortage but an experience shortage.
I'll tell you why - Alot of it comes from the Ansett and TAA days. Qantas too (in a way). Why? Because they paid for all of your training.
They paid for your training and then gave you fantastic experience on the line.
POINT 1
But now ladies and gentlemen! Most of the guys that are type rated with all the experience (ie Ex ansett) are pushing retirement.
POINT 2
Thanks to the accountants, now you have to pay for your own endorsements. Virgin and Jetstar and the likes. So, people just aren't learning to fly because they have to part with so much money, to get a relative bugger all back.
O.K - So there are some handfuls of guys that have actually paid for their endorsements and are flying in Virgin and Jetstar, and have what I would call great experience.... Now well what do you know? One of my best friends who is a Virgin Capatin has just taken a job with Emirates! More money, better working conditions.
All that experience and knowledge, gone.
Gone are the days when you slaved your way through G.A - got into Ansett, got put on $250k, and stayed there for the rest of your life.
That, my friends, is why there is no experience left
Best All
WWA
I'll tell you why - Alot of it comes from the Ansett and TAA days. Qantas too (in a way). Why? Because they paid for all of your training.
They paid for your training and then gave you fantastic experience on the line.
POINT 1
But now ladies and gentlemen! Most of the guys that are type rated with all the experience (ie Ex ansett) are pushing retirement.
POINT 2
Thanks to the accountants, now you have to pay for your own endorsements. Virgin and Jetstar and the likes. So, people just aren't learning to fly because they have to part with so much money, to get a relative bugger all back.
O.K - So there are some handfuls of guys that have actually paid for their endorsements and are flying in Virgin and Jetstar, and have what I would call great experience.... Now well what do you know? One of my best friends who is a Virgin Capatin has just taken a job with Emirates! More money, better working conditions.
All that experience and knowledge, gone.
Gone are the days when you slaved your way through G.A - got into Ansett, got put on $250k, and stayed there for the rest of your life.
That, my friends, is why there is no experience left
Best All
WWA
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Wrongwayaround,
You are missing one group of individuals that I feel rate a mention:
The group of GA/Low Cap Pilots that are in the 4,000 hours plus range that have a good skill set to bring to Virgin or Jetstar, that feel it is shamefull to be expected to cough up a huge sum of money for required endorsement.
So, they don't apply.
QF does not interest them due to the "wing commanders club" and are doing OK where they are.
On a side topic, pilots who do pay for their 73/airbus/Dash 8 endorsements etc etc, they should be ashamed of themselves, if these companies couldn't get away with this, well quite simply, they wouldn't.
yeh yeh, jealously, blah blah blah, heard it all before.
Bonding is a fine concept and presents a win win situation for both parties.
You are missing one group of individuals that I feel rate a mention:
The group of GA/Low Cap Pilots that are in the 4,000 hours plus range that have a good skill set to bring to Virgin or Jetstar, that feel it is shamefull to be expected to cough up a huge sum of money for required endorsement.
So, they don't apply.
QF does not interest them due to the "wing commanders club" and are doing OK where they are.
On a side topic, pilots who do pay for their 73/airbus/Dash 8 endorsements etc etc, they should be ashamed of themselves, if these companies couldn't get away with this, well quite simply, they wouldn't.
yeh yeh, jealously, blah blah blah, heard it all before.
Bonding is a fine concept and presents a win win situation for both parties.
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I too agree with the concept of bonding. I would hate spending 30k (if I had it) on a qualification for which I was already suitably qualified. If I had to borrow the money, paying the interest plus the principle would make it even worse.
The company bond to assure a 2 year guarantee of service is a much better way as far as I'm concerned. Perfectly happy to commit to a job being offered for two/three years rather than to pay six months wages for the privilege. You would have to question a persons commitment if they were planning to leave after six months.
Paying for endorsements should be boycotted but bonding is a far more just system allowing both parties to get a return.
The company bond to assure a 2 year guarantee of service is a much better way as far as I'm concerned. Perfectly happy to commit to a job being offered for two/three years rather than to pay six months wages for the privilege. You would have to question a persons commitment if they were planning to leave after six months.
Paying for endorsements should be boycotted but bonding is a far more just system allowing both parties to get a return.
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dare to venture offshore and you'll discover a few home truths. It doesn't take 500 baron hours to fly a metro, infact 500 co-pilot hours in the machine would be much more appropriate.
I do not profess to know the ins and outs of some of the aforementioned operators. I do, however, remember many years ago similar discussions, when experience requirements were higher (even for said metro operators). Why have the requirements dropped? Is this now a safety concern? Doubtful.
I could write a novel about times of high workload, doesn't really answer the question. The fact is, Australia has higher requirements than many other countries with the same operations, countries who haven't a greater air accident rate than our own fair land. This speaks for itself...
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There are also alot of:
who HAVE applied, and are never called from any of these players.
So, so try telling all those guys who are wondering where they have gone wrong getting time and experience in GA/Low Cap turboprops and not getting even a nibble, that there is a pilot shortage.
Plenty of pilots sub 3000hrs get the call.
Go Figure
PS As an addendum to Podbreak's comments...People often use Europe as an example of low experience pilots getting jet jobs as an indication that we in Australia have too-high minimums - so I will go with that environment.
Operations in Oz, especially regional/GA/Turboprop & night freight are not exactly a cakewalk! No we don't have the snows and consistent low vis like a European winter, but we also don't have the infrastructure they do to support bad weather ops when they do arise here. They have the gear on the ground, and in the plane (most of the time) to deal with it. Our alternates are often hundreds of miles away, with an NDB your only approach. Europe is littered with Cat I/II/III ILS, VORS etc etc, and plenty of airfields with HIAL etc etc. Our airport infrastructure, except for the major TMA's are distinctly poverty-pack, with basic aids, basic approach lighting etc. And I don't care the whys of not having 'all the good gear'. We don't have it, end of story.
Our weather is considered 'benign'. I wouldn't call some of the lines of storms we get for hundreds of miles (ok been a while since that occurrence due el nino etc) or some ferocious inflight icing we deal with is, widespread fogs in winter, or the rain sodden, windy east coast with LP systems pumping ****e, low cloud, rain and turbulence onto the coast for 5-7 days at a time, exactly benign.
Are the experience minimums here too high? Not anymore!! Were they?? Maybe! (Maybe that's why our accident rate was low) But I can tell you this:
It IS possible to operate turboprop or jet equipment if you are taught correctly, even with low hours.
However, it's the situational awareness and 'big picture' vision, and dare i say it 'rat-cunning' that pilots get from years of flying, watching, learning and evaluating what goes on, that makes the BIG difference.
Alot of guys progressing into the 'upper ranks' of GA (turboprops - God forbid, even a Metro!) have never really flown in SERIOUS IFR where your alternate needs an alternate needs an alternate etc, because the drought and wx hasn't been so bad the last few years. They have probably been taught to fly IFR by instructors who never did either.
If the weather gets as wet as they are predicting his year - some guys are going to learn some lessons THE HARD WAY.
I just hope it doesn't get too ugly.
The group of GA/Low Cap Pilots that are in the 4,000 hours plus range that have a good skill set to bring to Virgin or Jetstar
So, so try telling all those guys who are wondering where they have gone wrong getting time and experience in GA/Low Cap turboprops and not getting even a nibble, that there is a pilot shortage.
Plenty of pilots sub 3000hrs get the call.
Go Figure
PS As an addendum to Podbreak's comments...People often use Europe as an example of low experience pilots getting jet jobs as an indication that we in Australia have too-high minimums - so I will go with that environment.
Operations in Oz, especially regional/GA/Turboprop & night freight are not exactly a cakewalk! No we don't have the snows and consistent low vis like a European winter, but we also don't have the infrastructure they do to support bad weather ops when they do arise here. They have the gear on the ground, and in the plane (most of the time) to deal with it. Our alternates are often hundreds of miles away, with an NDB your only approach. Europe is littered with Cat I/II/III ILS, VORS etc etc, and plenty of airfields with HIAL etc etc. Our airport infrastructure, except for the major TMA's are distinctly poverty-pack, with basic aids, basic approach lighting etc. And I don't care the whys of not having 'all the good gear'. We don't have it, end of story.
Our weather is considered 'benign'. I wouldn't call some of the lines of storms we get for hundreds of miles (ok been a while since that occurrence due el nino etc) or some ferocious inflight icing we deal with is, widespread fogs in winter, or the rain sodden, windy east coast with LP systems pumping ****e, low cloud, rain and turbulence onto the coast for 5-7 days at a time, exactly benign.
Are the experience minimums here too high? Not anymore!! Were they?? Maybe! (Maybe that's why our accident rate was low) But I can tell you this:
It IS possible to operate turboprop or jet equipment if you are taught correctly, even with low hours.
However, it's the situational awareness and 'big picture' vision, and dare i say it 'rat-cunning' that pilots get from years of flying, watching, learning and evaluating what goes on, that makes the BIG difference.
Alot of guys progressing into the 'upper ranks' of GA (turboprops - God forbid, even a Metro!) have never really flown in SERIOUS IFR where your alternate needs an alternate needs an alternate etc, because the drought and wx hasn't been so bad the last few years. They have probably been taught to fly IFR by instructors who never did either.
If the weather gets as wet as they are predicting his year - some guys are going to learn some lessons THE HARD WAY.
I just hope it doesn't get too ugly.
Last edited by Jet_A_Knight; 21st Apr 2007 at 10:29.
jet A Knight.
Airlines don't want thousands of hours GA time. Firstly too many bad habits have been formed and Airline Operations are a world apart from GA Ops.
There are many large and well respected airlines whose First Officers have been well trained and have only 500 hours occupying the right seat, so why employ a pilot with several thousand hours ( GA time) in his mid-thirtys?
As an earlier poster remarked Australia has the highest experience requirements to operate light aeroplanes. In fact it's laughable considering the weather we have.
There are so many pilots available for employment that if these GA operators required a degree to fly a Baron there would be enough to choose from.
There are many large and well respected airlines whose First Officers have been well trained and have only 500 hours occupying the right seat, so why employ a pilot with several thousand hours ( GA time) in his mid-thirtys?
As an earlier poster remarked Australia has the highest experience requirements to operate light aeroplanes. In fact it's laughable considering the weather we have.
There are so many pilots available for employment that if these GA operators required a degree to fly a Baron there would be enough to choose from.
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Firstly too many bad habits have been formed and Airline Operations are a world apart from GA Ops.
The 'GA ' company I fly for has a very strict CAR217 Check and Training organisation, and I can assure you, the bad habits are trained out twice a year during our cyclics, in the simulator and in the aeroplane.
Flying as a part of a crew??
If you are a half reasonable team player, just another skill-set to learn.
There a HUGE numbers of pilots flying multi crew ops in jets that were once single pilot operators.
Get real MBA, and open your mind up a bit. Not everyone has an old man who can buy them a cadetship or an A320 job.
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JetAknight you illustrate a very important point.
EU does have more infrastructure, and the likelyhood of a circling approach at min vis with a poorly maintained aircraft isn't high. I don't know where the lexperience line is, but I personally believe the safety line isn't aligned with it (in Oz). Its subjective (to a certain extent), and thus I'm taking what you've said to mind, good point.
I did my time in the crap in northern Oz, may I suggest while flying overseas (EU, mainly) might offer greater support, it has other challenges of euqal difficulty.
EU does have more infrastructure, and the likelyhood of a circling approach at min vis with a poorly maintained aircraft isn't high. I don't know where the lexperience line is, but I personally believe the safety line isn't aligned with it (in Oz). Its subjective (to a certain extent), and thus I'm taking what you've said to mind, good point.
I did my time in the crap in northern Oz, may I suggest while flying overseas (EU, mainly) might offer greater support, it has other challenges of euqal difficulty.
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Poddy - i never meant to infer that flying the EU is a cakewalk either. Though not having flown there, I have spent quite a few years living there, albeit in a different career, and know what the weather can be like.
It is a career goal to fly in Europe, and I recognise that - infrastructure aside - it will be a challenge for me, and I will have alot to learn and understand in that environment.
It's just that the inference that experience is generally irrelevant (after all, low time guys fly jets in Europe!!) and that time in GA is worthless because the weather is so good here.
I can tell you, and others, flying SY-ML and dealing with pre-frontal thunderstorms - and I'm not talking FL370 - ain't exactly childs play.
PS If you fly in Europe -i envy you!
It is a career goal to fly in Europe, and I recognise that - infrastructure aside - it will be a challenge for me, and I will have alot to learn and understand in that environment.
It's just that the inference that experience is generally irrelevant (after all, low time guys fly jets in Europe!!) and that time in GA is worthless because the weather is so good here.
I can tell you, and others, flying SY-ML and dealing with pre-frontal thunderstorms - and I'm not talking FL370 - ain't exactly childs play.
PS If you fly in Europe -i envy you!
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So. JetaN , you sound as if you have a lot of worldwide experience , or do you just guess what it's like to fly outside good ole Oz. Well, old mate, in case you have NEVER flown outside Oz (as I suspect), let me tell you, you have the easiest flying anywhere in the world. I won't patter on here 'cos if you have never flown anywhere else then you won't really know what I am talking about and you shouldn't put your 2 bobs worth in about something which you know nothing about.