The Pilot Shortage is coming!!!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
in that case, we were talking about the copilot, yes the PIC in Lockhart is a number 2, but the copilot was not.
Q: would an experienced Copilot on that flight have saved those 18 odd lives ?.
What future does a cadet have if they never actually have any command time ?, how do they get command time, MBA747 suggested pilots from GA are not suitable for progression to the airlines, i disagree, i.e. how do you get command experience without GA ?.
Pod, remember it was ,metro-b737, if it makes it easier to believe, think of it as a metro command.
Q: would an experienced Copilot on that flight have saved those 18 odd lives ?.
What future does a cadet have if they never actually have any command time ?, how do they get command time, MBA747 suggested pilots from GA are not suitable for progression to the airlines, i disagree, i.e. how do you get command experience without GA ?.
Pod, remember it was ,metro-b737, if it makes it easier to believe, think of it as a metro command.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bushy, thats nice, what is the point of your post ?.
You've seen lots of operations that marginalise maintenance, oil leaks, not writing up defect etc etc, what else would you call these aircraft ?.
You've seen lots of operations that marginalise maintenance, oil leaks, not writing up defect etc etc, what else would you call these aircraft ?.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sheep, are you suggesting the co-pilot was the cause of the accident?
This is a somewhat ignorant statement.
Lets not get into cadet bashing mode, its old and gets no one anywhere.
i.e. how do you get command experience without GA ?.
Lets not get into cadet bashing mode, its old and gets no one anywhere.
Pilot Shortage Huh ?????
There is a shortage of experienced Capt’s. There is no shortage of hopefuls. In Australia the salaries are woeful, why should somebody outlay 80K to 100K to earn 45K after a few years in GA, there are exceptions but they are few.
Cadets placed with GA operators to gain experience i.e. right seat should be placed in an airline CRM course before embarking on GA experience. These cadets are flying with GA “Captains” who have not flown in a two crew operation themselves. Their concept of two crew operations is having two pilots on the flight deck. However if there aren’t specific duties assigned to each pilot and they work as a team, the two crew operation is a myth.
GA “Captains” still tend to operate in a single pilot fashion and regard the Co-pilot as one there for raising and lowering the gear, flaps and operate the radio. This is a far cry from a proper two crew concept.
As far as experience is concerned, excessive experience is required to operate GA aircraft in Australia. That is because there are too many pilots on the market. Experience is used as a culling exercise. There were a lot of us who went up to PNG with 500 hours and once gaining the required experience left and joined the airlines.
It’s these old guys running GA ops still pushing these experience requirements that say there is a pilot shortage. There isn’t, it is a pity they did not experience airline operations because if they did they would know how out of tune they are with reality. Flying through frontal weather and CB’s without radar is not experience just pure stupidity, but GA pilots are expected to do so in badly maintained aircraft, about time CASA did something about this type of operator.
Cadets placed with GA operators to gain experience i.e. right seat should be placed in an airline CRM course before embarking on GA experience. These cadets are flying with GA “Captains” who have not flown in a two crew operation themselves. Their concept of two crew operations is having two pilots on the flight deck. However if there aren’t specific duties assigned to each pilot and they work as a team, the two crew operation is a myth.
GA “Captains” still tend to operate in a single pilot fashion and regard the Co-pilot as one there for raising and lowering the gear, flaps and operate the radio. This is a far cry from a proper two crew concept.
As far as experience is concerned, excessive experience is required to operate GA aircraft in Australia. That is because there are too many pilots on the market. Experience is used as a culling exercise. There were a lot of us who went up to PNG with 500 hours and once gaining the required experience left and joined the airlines.
It’s these old guys running GA ops still pushing these experience requirements that say there is a pilot shortage. There isn’t, it is a pity they did not experience airline operations because if they did they would know how out of tune they are with reality. Flying through frontal weather and CB’s without radar is not experience just pure stupidity, but GA pilots are expected to do so in badly maintained aircraft, about time CASA did something about this type of operator.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually Podbreak, that is not an ignorant statement, given, i'm guessing the question being asked is, if a cadet program is ones avenue into an airlines.
To Qualify for an ATPL CAR5.172 states you need 250 hour in command, how do you get that as a cadet copilot ?, so you can qualify for command ?, i.e. hold an ATPL ?.
Unless of course you are happy to be a copilot for the rest of your life, GA is the only way i could imagine that command time could be achieved.
To Qualify for an ATPL CAR5.172 states you need 250 hour in command, how do you get that as a cadet copilot ?, so you can qualify for command ?, i.e. hold an ATPL ?.
Unless of course you are happy to be a copilot for the rest of your life, GA is the only way i could imagine that command time could be achieved.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given:
I believe the assumption wasn't regarding the formality of licencing, I'm taking it to be a suggestion of under-qualification for the role of Captain in the absence of 'GA' experience. As I said before, this argument leads nowhere, needless to say many airlines enjoy a mixture of both cadets and GA pilots; if you don't want to fly with a cadet, make sure you let them know in the interview so your rosters can be arranged accordingly.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph 5.172 (2) (a), the flight time as pilot in
command may include up to 150 hours as pilot acting in command
under supervision.
command may include up to 150 hours as pilot acting in command
under supervision.
I believe the assumption wasn't regarding the formality of licencing, I'm taking it to be a suggestion of under-qualification for the role of Captain in the absence of 'GA' experience. As I said before, this argument leads nowhere, needless to say many airlines enjoy a mixture of both cadets and GA pilots; if you don't want to fly with a cadet, make sure you let them know in the interview so your rosters can be arranged accordingly.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South O Equator
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why should somebody outlay 80K to 100K to earn 45K after a few years in GA
These cadets are flying with GA “Captains” who have not flown in a two crew operation themselves. Their concept of two crew operations is having two pilots on the flight deck. However if there aren’t specific duties assigned to each pilot and they work as a team, the two crew operation is a myth.
GA “Captains” still tend to operate in a single pilot fashion and regard the Co-pilot as one there for raising and lowering the gear, flaps and operate the radio. This is a far cry from a proper two crew concept.
There were a lot of us who went up to PNG with 500 hours and once gaining the required experience left and joined the airlines.
Flying through frontal weather and CB’s without radar is not experience just pure stupidity, but GA pilots are expected to do so in badly maintained aircraft, about time CASA did something about this type of operator.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lefty, yes that is the general jist of it.
Wow, ICUS, that just makes all the difference.
It was stated ealier that GA experience of of no interest to the airlines ( which i disagree with ).
I was higly suspicious that this topic was being steered by Cadet/inexperienced types with an agenda, thanks for the answer.
Enjoy, yes there is a shortage of experienced pilots.
See the ads on AFAP jobs page, 2000 tt 500 mecomm, yet GA experience does not count in the airlines ?, right ?.
I do not see any pilot jobs for 200 tt and no command time, so is there a shortage of Cadets/inexperienced pilots ( not 2000tt 500 mecom ) ?, no.
Re: Lockhart River, the copilot was not experienced, 600 odd tt, all metro copilot, do you think a number 2 pilot having been copilot might have made a difference on that day, chances are he would have been able to read a chart to have survived long enough to become a number 2.
One of the main reasons there are two pilots ops, incase one makes a mistake the other is there to pick it up, if the copilot is nothing more than a paid spectator, what is the function of this person then ?
Wow, ICUS, that just makes all the difference.
It was stated ealier that GA experience of of no interest to the airlines ( which i disagree with ).
I was higly suspicious that this topic was being steered by Cadet/inexperienced types with an agenda, thanks for the answer.
Enjoy, yes there is a shortage of experienced pilots.
See the ads on AFAP jobs page, 2000 tt 500 mecomm, yet GA experience does not count in the airlines ?, right ?.
I do not see any pilot jobs for 200 tt and no command time, so is there a shortage of Cadets/inexperienced pilots ( not 2000tt 500 mecom ) ?, no.
Re: Lockhart River, the copilot was not experienced, 600 odd tt, all metro copilot, do you think a number 2 pilot having been copilot might have made a difference on that day, chances are he would have been able to read a chart to have survived long enough to become a number 2.
One of the main reasons there are two pilots ops, incase one makes a mistake the other is there to pick it up, if the copilot is nothing more than a paid spectator, what is the function of this person then ?
Nunc est bibendum
do you think a number 2 pilot having been copilot might have made a difference on that day,
You say that 'what if' the F/O in Lockhart River had more experience. What if the operator had a better organisational safety culture? Any deficit in this culture wasn't one that developed as a result of cadets, it was a long standing GA culture.
So how about we start with a more sound premise that avoiding prangs isn't just about experience. Plenty of experienced people prang aircraft every day. Plenty of inexperienced people save the day when those with a few more hours under their belt stay silent.
I didn't start this cadet comparison (again) but I'm stuffed if I'm going to read PPRUNE and read continued examples of poor thought processes and lack of understanding of safety systems to continue.
Last edited by Keg; 23rd Apr 2007 at 10:06.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg, a gem as usual.
Sheep Dog Tosser;
If you need 'experience' to read a chart you shouldn't have your IFR. Moreover if the issue was his inability to read a chart, he would have put his 210 into the hill.
I've never claimed to be a cadet
, and far from inexperienced.
Sheep Dog Tosser;
chances are he would have been able to read a chart to have survived long enough to become a number 2.
I was higly suspicious that this topic was being steered by Cadet/inexperienced types with an agenda
, and far from inexperienced.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GA “Captains” still tend to operate in a single pilot fashion and regard the Co-pilot as one there for raising and lowering the gear, flaps and operate the radio. This is a far cry from a proper two crew concept.
The Copilot
I am a copilot, I sit on the right
I'm quick and courageous; I'm wonderfully bright
My job is remembering what the captain forgets
And I never talk back, so I have no regrets.
cho: I'm a lousy copilot and a long way from home.
I make out the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear, drop it, and stand by to feather
I make out his mail forms, I hire his whores,
And I fly his old crate to the tune of his snores.
I make out the flight plan according to Hoyle
I take all the readings, I check on the oil,
I hustle him out for the midnight alarm
I fly through the fog while he sleeps on my arm.
I treat him to coffee, I keep him in cokes
I laugh at his corn and his horrible jokes
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I come through with, "Yessiree captain,it's gusty!"
All in all, I'm commissioned a general stooge
I sit on the right of this high-flying Scrooge
Some day I'll make captain, and then I'll be blest,
I'll give my poor tongue one long hell of a rest.
Airlines don't want pilots who can use their initiave to solve problems, they want people who strictly follow the rules and therefore do not put the AOC at risk.
The "get the job done" skills picked up in GA do not go down well in an airline which is under close survaillance by the regulator and the press. Your boss of a few years ago may have been grateful that you were able to limp your C206 back to base, thereby saving him money. The Chief Pilot of an airline will be down on you like a ton of bricks if you go outside the MEL.
Flight and duty times which may have been fudged in the past have to be abided by, you may think you did well by managing to carry the whole load in one go in a Baron, but try explaining to CASA why you flew a 737 overweight.
Modern airliners record every move you make and any deviations from procedures are noticed by a monitoring program. Supposedly the data is de-identified and used to indicate trends which need to be corrected, but do something serious and they will trace you. Try arguing with a computer print out.
A modern airliner is operated not flown, unless something serious goes wrong. And the operation has a lot of people watching it to make sure rules are followed, you licence/job are at risk if they aren't.
Your ability to dodge through a gap in the weather, land on a short dirt strip, do some illegal maintenance while on the ground are of no help in an airline. They want people who will strictly follow the book, whose every action can be examined by the regulator and no fault found.
Bit boring at times but alot safer. Pay and conditions are better to
The "get the job done" skills picked up in GA do not go down well in an airline which is under close survaillance by the regulator and the press. Your boss of a few years ago may have been grateful that you were able to limp your C206 back to base, thereby saving him money. The Chief Pilot of an airline will be down on you like a ton of bricks if you go outside the MEL.
Flight and duty times which may have been fudged in the past have to be abided by, you may think you did well by managing to carry the whole load in one go in a Baron, but try explaining to CASA why you flew a 737 overweight.
Modern airliners record every move you make and any deviations from procedures are noticed by a monitoring program. Supposedly the data is de-identified and used to indicate trends which need to be corrected, but do something serious and they will trace you. Try arguing with a computer print out.
A modern airliner is operated not flown, unless something serious goes wrong. And the operation has a lot of people watching it to make sure rules are followed, you licence/job are at risk if they aren't.
Your ability to dodge through a gap in the weather, land on a short dirt strip, do some illegal maintenance while on the ground are of no help in an airline. They want people who will strictly follow the book, whose every action can be examined by the regulator and no fault found.
Bit boring at times but alot safer. Pay and conditions are better to
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Papua New Guinea
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Metro Man,
You hit the nail on the head there!
Bush flying is the best possible experience for a career as a bush pilot.
If you would like to fly something bigger that pays more dollars, then FO time is the go!
BTW, bush flying is becoming a thing of the past in PNG. APNG Does very little (I'm talking about Highlands flying, two-way strips on the coast don't count), SouthWest Air does a bit -one Twotter. And North Coast, three Islanders and a 206. All other bush flying is the domain of MAF and the other missionaries.
So pilots moving up to Hevilift, APNG or Air Nuigini may not have any bush time. Not saying that is a good thing, but that's how it is.
You hit the nail on the head there!
Bush flying is the best possible experience for a career as a bush pilot.
If you would like to fly something bigger that pays more dollars, then FO time is the go!
BTW, bush flying is becoming a thing of the past in PNG. APNG Does very little (I'm talking about Highlands flying, two-way strips on the coast don't count), SouthWest Air does a bit -one Twotter. And North Coast, three Islanders and a 206. All other bush flying is the domain of MAF and the other missionaries.
So pilots moving up to Hevilift, APNG or Air Nuigini may not have any bush time. Not saying that is a good thing, but that's how it is.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if the copilot is nothing more than a paid spectator,
Plenty of experienced people prang aircraft every day.
Metroman etc..............
The only way you can perceive and respond to all things in life is via recollection and application. Very few are able to respond correctly to new experiences if they are unable to draw from some form of reference.
So it is with low-time F/O's. I would much rather have a high time ex-GA employed as a new F/O than a new kid with a bare Commercial/ATPL.
This isn't as applicable now, however with many airlines looking to circumvent the looming shortage of tech crew by using very inexperienced MCC endorsed ATPL'S. You don't have to extrapolate too far to realize that having worked towards the lowest accident rates(historically)we may see some reversal of the trends when Airline Capt's find themselves becoming single pilot operations when the workload increases simply because the new F/O is overloaded.
If new candidates are exposed to all scenarios in the sim prior to line flying then you are less likely to suffer from an overloaded F/O. Having said that accountants drive the hours allowed for the training of new recruits(especially when new recruits pay for their own endorsements).
The only way you can perceive and respond to all things in life is via recollection and application. Very few are able to respond correctly to new experiences if they are unable to draw from some form of reference.
So it is with low-time F/O's. I would much rather have a high time ex-GA employed as a new F/O than a new kid with a bare Commercial/ATPL.
This isn't as applicable now, however with many airlines looking to circumvent the looming shortage of tech crew by using very inexperienced MCC endorsed ATPL'S. You don't have to extrapolate too far to realize that having worked towards the lowest accident rates(historically)we may see some reversal of the trends when Airline Capt's find themselves becoming single pilot operations when the workload increases simply because the new F/O is overloaded.
If new candidates are exposed to all scenarios in the sim prior to line flying then you are less likely to suffer from an overloaded F/O. Having said that accountants drive the hours allowed for the training of new recruits(especially when new recruits pay for their own endorsements).
Ref+10
Ref+10. The old days where the Capt. was a mini god is long gone. As Metro Man has learnt quickly GA practices will not be tolerated in to-days airlines. CRM is heavily emphasized; the FO no longer sits there in silence while there is an obvious cock up.
SOP’s are strictly followed, QAR’s are routinely examined to look for trends and if there is any violation the event is normally flagged.
Nearly all of us have gone through the GA stream and what happened 30 years ago still exists, the only difference is that GA operations are more covert in the way they operate. You could not convince anybody who has made the transition from GA to airlines that there aren’t huge deficiencies in GA. The only way things will change is if ex airline pilots go back into GA and are ALLOWED to implement proper practices, but that will never happen because of costs.
I would ask how many pilots in even the better “regionals” have ex airline pilots in senior positions such that they could influence the way SOP’s are introduced and implemented.
Now getting back to the thread, there is no shortage of pilots in Aust. and never will be. The present exam system is a joke and as long as the only requirement to be a pilot is the ability to pay, there will always be a huge surplus. The only shortage that exists to-day is of experienced Capts. First officers who are well trained can satisfactorily carry out their duties with as low as 500 hours. However I repeat well trained, not somebody who has been given a quickie endorsement and occupies the right seat.
SOP’s are strictly followed, QAR’s are routinely examined to look for trends and if there is any violation the event is normally flagged.
Nearly all of us have gone through the GA stream and what happened 30 years ago still exists, the only difference is that GA operations are more covert in the way they operate. You could not convince anybody who has made the transition from GA to airlines that there aren’t huge deficiencies in GA. The only way things will change is if ex airline pilots go back into GA and are ALLOWED to implement proper practices, but that will never happen because of costs.
I would ask how many pilots in even the better “regionals” have ex airline pilots in senior positions such that they could influence the way SOP’s are introduced and implemented.
Now getting back to the thread, there is no shortage of pilots in Aust. and never will be. The present exam system is a joke and as long as the only requirement to be a pilot is the ability to pay, there will always be a huge surplus. The only shortage that exists to-day is of experienced Capts. First officers who are well trained can satisfactorily carry out their duties with as low as 500 hours. However I repeat well trained, not somebody who has been given a quickie endorsement and occupies the right seat.
