Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA
Aircraft, your last paragraph is the biggest load of rubbish. How many low cost carriers have you worked for? Why is the start salary of an Easyjet captain in the UK around pay point 5 or 6 for a BA captain on a similar fleet. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Keep the illusion alive!
Keep the illusion alive!
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Comparing Dixon's pay to AJ's pay packet is nonsense, Jetstar is a subsiduary of Qantas - Alan works under Geoff.
With regard to differences in QF737 and JQ320's fleet managers pay, how many aircraft/crews do the respective managers look after?
With regard to differences in QF737 and JQ320's fleet managers pay, how many aircraft/crews do the respective managers look after?
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Rostov,
you no not of what you speak.
GD and AJ are not equals. GD is CEO of the whole group, AJ is CEO of a small part of the group. A better salary comparison would be AJ versus JB and there you will see there is little difference, perhaps we can use the % difference between AJ's and JB's salary to establish a set rate between QF and JQ pilot salaries......I Wish.
The QF 737 fleet manager looks after 50+ aeroplanes, enough to justify the difference in salary, but on top of that he is also the 767 fleet manager as well!!! I think the JQ guy is getting paid too much when you look at it this way, but again happy to use their realtive pay rates versus size of responsibilty to work out a realtive pilot rate between the two groups.
So..... no, management are not feeling the pain, just the drivers.
you no not of what you speak.
GD and AJ are not equals. GD is CEO of the whole group, AJ is CEO of a small part of the group. A better salary comparison would be AJ versus JB and there you will see there is little difference, perhaps we can use the % difference between AJ's and JB's salary to establish a set rate between QF and JQ pilot salaries......I Wish.
The QF 737 fleet manager looks after 50+ aeroplanes, enough to justify the difference in salary, but on top of that he is also the 767 fleet manager as well!!! I think the JQ guy is getting paid too much when you look at it this way, but again happy to use their realtive pay rates versus size of responsibilty to work out a realtive pilot rate between the two groups.
So..... no, management are not feeling the pain, just the drivers.
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For all the doubting Thomas's who still believe in fairies at the foot of the garden, take a look at the story in today's Sydney Morning Herald at page 22 headed " US pilots hold out for smaller reductions". This is about pay negotiations at two 'legacy carriers'. Qantas is also a legacy carrier. Pilots conditions at these carriers were negotiated when not a lot thought was put into what was agreed as airlines then could charge what they wanted, fuel was just another small cost and so on. With hindsight, they lived in a fool's paradise as evidenced by the demise and/or bankruptcy of several of these legacy carriers and the economic basket cases that several remaining carriers are: Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, Sabena, Alitalia, Air France and so on. Even Delta, a paragon of best practice a few years ago, has been driven to the wall, by amongst other factors, high wage costs and pressures that are inappropriate in today's world of commercial aviation. The world has now changed and like it or not, a lot of the world's pilots - chiefly those employed by the legacy carriers - are still living in that antediluvian world. Before their eyes, the world is literally passing them by.
On another note, the Jetstar boys and girls have come a long way in a short time. Why wouldn't they jump at the opportunity to expand their horizons even further even if they don't 'enjoy' the same generous terms and conditions as their comrades at Qantas Mainline? If they think that what they are to be paid is fair and reasoanble, who is anyone else to argue? Perhaps only those who see the end of the largesse they enjoy??.
On another note, the Jetstar boys and girls have come a long way in a short time. Why wouldn't they jump at the opportunity to expand their horizons even further even if they don't 'enjoy' the same generous terms and conditions as their comrades at Qantas Mainline? If they think that what they are to be paid is fair and reasoanble, who is anyone else to argue? Perhaps only those who see the end of the largesse they enjoy??.
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Originally Posted by EPIRB
I believe that the problem with America is that there are too many legacy carriers for the market.
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High productivity is missing? There have been quite a lot of QF pilots who have cracked the 900 hours. I'm sitting on 850. Show us some facts where those points that you made are missing amongst the Qantas aircrew as you state.
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evaluating other peoples jobs
I would like to know where B A LERT works?
Apparently he thinks he is paid no more than is necessary and earns every cent that he is paid and that there is no way he could be more efficient to the company or whoever his employer is.
That is unless the company decides to outsource his section and position and pay someone in a country with third world pay and conditions to do his job. Then he would be very indignant I imagine at the thought of someone replacing him for less money especially as he is so efficient and cost effective.
Wonderful isn’t it that so many people look at others and without doing or experiencing and understanding the position job consider them overpaid.
The bottom line is and always has been that people look at crew going to and from work and are jealous mainly because they are stuck in some cubicle and only fly somewhere on holidays once a year if that.
Apparently he thinks he is paid no more than is necessary and earns every cent that he is paid and that there is no way he could be more efficient to the company or whoever his employer is.
That is unless the company decides to outsource his section and position and pay someone in a country with third world pay and conditions to do his job. Then he would be very indignant I imagine at the thought of someone replacing him for less money especially as he is so efficient and cost effective.
Wonderful isn’t it that so many people look at others and without doing or experiencing and understanding the position job consider them overpaid.
The bottom line is and always has been that people look at crew going to and from work and are jealous mainly because they are stuck in some cubicle and only fly somewhere on holidays once a year if that.
lowerlobe
As I have said before, as an outsider looking in, most on this forum criticising QF crew are probably management trying to splinter you. So far they are succeeding but if you now realise the game they are playing, and I mean all of you from QF, J*, and DJ you can play them at their own game. It isn’t that hard really when you know the rules they are playing by.
As I have said before, as an outsider looking in, most on this forum criticising QF crew are probably management trying to splinter you. So far they are succeeding but if you now realise the game they are playing, and I mean all of you from QF, J*, and DJ you can play them at their own game. It isn’t that hard really when you know the rules they are playing by.
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Originally Posted by EPIRB
....There have been quite a lot of QF pilots who have cracked the 900 hours. I'm sitting on 850....
lowerlobe...attack is the best form of defence, eh? I ask you, who'd be jealous of aircrew if the life and job is as hard, arduous, poorly paid, and as difficult as you paint it?
Let's get one thing clear - no one is advocating that third world rates of pay and conditions apply in Australia - just conditions and pay levels that are NOW appropriate for the work actually performed, and in line with real market rates. There are literally '000s of young people to do your work: after all, how long does it take from day 1 to first trip as a flight attendant?
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“Can you imagine any other industry advertising vacancies at 100K less than market rates”
What exactly are the market rates you refer to and how did you arrive at them? A fat, bloated, highly unionized carrier such as QF may have represented market rates back when all other competitors (from a labor market perspective) were fat, bloated and highly unionized, AN and TN.
The other players in the oz airline industry today are nothing like the airlines of old. Why on earth would you expect QF to continue to be the benchmark for employee salaries within the industry? Clinging on to outdated inflexible work practices is as silly as continuing to operate Constellations.
“Why is the start salary of an Easyjet captain in the UK around pay point 5 or 6 for a BA captain on a similar fleet. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.”
Because they have to pay such salaries in order to fill cockpit seats. The UK/Europe market is vastly different from Australia where there are always more pilots looking to move up the ladder into jet airliners than there are seats. This is not the case in Europe. I recall the days in the UK when there were no qualified pilots looking for airline positions – NONE. Has this ever happened in Australia?
The bottom line of the airline industry in oz – it is what it is. Virgin appear to have no trouble crewing aircraft at the “below industry” rates they offer so bitching about the state of play is really just wasted breath.
What exactly are the market rates you refer to and how did you arrive at them? A fat, bloated, highly unionized carrier such as QF may have represented market rates back when all other competitors (from a labor market perspective) were fat, bloated and highly unionized, AN and TN.
The other players in the oz airline industry today are nothing like the airlines of old. Why on earth would you expect QF to continue to be the benchmark for employee salaries within the industry? Clinging on to outdated inflexible work practices is as silly as continuing to operate Constellations.
“Why is the start salary of an Easyjet captain in the UK around pay point 5 or 6 for a BA captain on a similar fleet. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.”
Because they have to pay such salaries in order to fill cockpit seats. The UK/Europe market is vastly different from Australia where there are always more pilots looking to move up the ladder into jet airliners than there are seats. This is not the case in Europe. I recall the days in the UK when there were no qualified pilots looking for airline positions – NONE. Has this ever happened in Australia?
The bottom line of the airline industry in oz – it is what it is. Virgin appear to have no trouble crewing aircraft at the “below industry” rates they offer so bitching about the state of play is really just wasted breath.
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Originally Posted by B A Lert
......There are literally '000s of young people to do your work: after all, how long does it take from day 1 to first trip as a flight attendant?
This particular part of your response is flawed....
If the QF Group (including JETSTAR) wish to attract the best pilots in Australia and the region - they will have to continue to provide competitive Terms and Conditions....
As an example - look at the entry level pilot into OZJET v JETSTAR International....in OZJET they would enter as an FO and start on around $75,000....the proposed JETSTAR International deal would see an entry level 'Cruise FO' start on approx $50,000....I know which company I would be going too given the choice...
The QF Group do not just compete with Australian GA operators....
Do you think many Military pilots will leave the ADF to join JETSTAR International - I seriously doubt it....
If the T + C continue to be reduced....Experienced and Good Quality pilots will go to Emirates, Cathay Pacific, Dragon Air...etc...
Datum
They already do and in far far greater numbers than are returning. Australians in all walks of life are deserting Australia in droves because of the pittance they can earn there and the strangulation of the taxation system. It is only now that some in government are starting to realise this. I personally think they are too late. The horses have already bolted.
If the T + C continue to be reduced....Experienced and Good Quality pilots will go to Emirates, Cathay Pacific, Dragon Air...etc...
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Very true; if you consider fuel, taxes, the exchange rate and the cost of housing, I really don't see how the Jetstar proposal is really even an affordable lifestyle to be gone all that much. You better not be divorced or get divorced...there'd be nothing left at all.
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B A LERT…
Attack is the best form of defence….you did not tell us where you work and if you consider yourself absolutely 100% efficient…and that is one of the problems……What do we base our definition of efficient on ?
Obviously BALERT wants us to base our jobs on his perception of the world and it’s economics.
Have you ever flown an aircraft or worked as a F/A ? I imagine you give a lot of people advice on how to do their occupations as well.
If your employer decides they can get someone else to do your job for less pay what would be your reaction ?
If the company achieves their objectives with crew then who do you think is next ?
Did I describe my job as you did ? NO
It is tiring and difficult especially when you have to put up with someone who thinks they can re-invent the wheel ,knows how to do your job better than you and can probably cure unemployment as well as find a cure for terminal diseases but that is their problem not mine
Unfortunately it is human nature to feel resentment to others who are perceived to have a better job and lifestyle whether that is the case or not.
Management does read this forum and probably do try to stir trouble but one day will have to face the same issue with the company outsourcing their jobs.
Attack is the best form of defence….you did not tell us where you work and if you consider yourself absolutely 100% efficient…and that is one of the problems……What do we base our definition of efficient on ?
Obviously BALERT wants us to base our jobs on his perception of the world and it’s economics.
Have you ever flown an aircraft or worked as a F/A ? I imagine you give a lot of people advice on how to do their occupations as well.
If your employer decides they can get someone else to do your job for less pay what would be your reaction ?
If the company achieves their objectives with crew then who do you think is next ?
Did I describe my job as you did ? NO
It is tiring and difficult especially when you have to put up with someone who thinks they can re-invent the wheel ,knows how to do your job better than you and can probably cure unemployment as well as find a cure for terminal diseases but that is their problem not mine
Unfortunately it is human nature to feel resentment to others who are perceived to have a better job and lifestyle whether that is the case or not.
Management does read this forum and probably do try to stir trouble but one day will have to face the same issue with the company outsourcing their jobs.
Originally Posted by 404 Titan
Datum
They already do and in far far greater numbers than are returning. Australians in all walks of life are deserting Australia in droves because of the pittance they can earn there and the strangulation of the taxation system. It is only now that some in government are starting to realise this. I personally think they are too late. The horses have already bolted.
They already do and in far far greater numbers than are returning. Australians in all walks of life are deserting Australia in droves because of the pittance they can earn there and the strangulation of the taxation system. It is only now that some in government are starting to realise this. I personally think they are too late. The horses have already bolted.
Trouble is. Australian low cost pilots think it's a good deal to live in the Middle East with Arabian friends, clearing less than $6000 AUD. Or, flying for start up carriers in Hong Kong, without getting any rental assistance and being paid a good deal less than incumbants.
You would have to be a moron to leave Australia for these conditions. But they do! A realisation there is nowhere to go, worth the loss of lifestyle, will hopefully see apathetic pilots in Australia, take a heightened interest in matters relating to their profession.
Gnadenburg
To be fare on EK and I won’t go into the rosters they are flying because I know it is a s**ty deal, most of their expenses are paid for by the company and there is no tax. With regard to the new start ups in HK, anyone who has gone to one of these outfits or is seriously thinking of going should think twice. Housing is very expensive here as well as other services with the exception of telecommunications. Food is at least twice the price and education for your children is prohibitively expensive. Oh and did I mention if you have a spouse he/she isn’t entitled to work. This makes for a pretty miserable existence in one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. From what I have heard they and the other startups on the mainland are having considerable trouble finding the necessary experience they are wanting and those that are there are looking for a fast way out. Time will only tell what happens but this city aint getting any cheaper to live in.
To be fare on EK and I won’t go into the rosters they are flying because I know it is a s**ty deal, most of their expenses are paid for by the company and there is no tax. With regard to the new start ups in HK, anyone who has gone to one of these outfits or is seriously thinking of going should think twice. Housing is very expensive here as well as other services with the exception of telecommunications. Food is at least twice the price and education for your children is prohibitively expensive. Oh and did I mention if you have a spouse he/she isn’t entitled to work. This makes for a pretty miserable existence in one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. From what I have heard they and the other startups on the mainland are having considerable trouble finding the necessary experience they are wanting and those that are there are looking for a fast way out. Time will only tell what happens but this city aint getting any cheaper to live in.