Jetstar A330 deal
Nunc est bibendum
Rostov, don't confuse the actions of the COM of the time with the general feeling of most of the crew. There was a considerable push by a number of crew to extend the hand of friend ship to the IPC at the time when the take over was announced. A number of senior AIPA people were saying 'no' but that they were providing 'advice' to the IPC so the hand of friendship was extended to a certain degree.
Now, with that out of the way, let's look at what is happening on this thread. QF pilots are saying 'careful you don't get stuffed around with a stick hour rate instead of a credit hour rate'. They are also saying that you are worth at least $185K + +.
The response from you and your ilk is 'get stuffed, you had your chance to help us out'. If that IS your stance then good luck. QF and AIPA pilots may not be perfect but we've run into a few of the pot holes that can crop up on long haul flying. Ignore the warnings of those pot holes at your peril. If at the end of the day you reckon that you're onto a good thing flogging around on an A330 at $150ishK then good luck and you're welcome to it.
Yeah, and comments like Rostov's and yours make that so much more achievable. I'll be the first to say that AIPA dropped the ball but the 'piss off, you've had your chance' attitude is little man's syndrome to a tee. Ignore our mistakes WRT scheduling and conditions at your peril. It's not like you're on a great wicket to start off with!
Now, with that out of the way, let's look at what is happening on this thread. QF pilots are saying 'careful you don't get stuffed around with a stick hour rate instead of a credit hour rate'. They are also saying that you are worth at least $185K + +.
The response from you and your ilk is 'get stuffed, you had your chance to help us out'. If that IS your stance then good luck. QF and AIPA pilots may not be perfect but we've run into a few of the pot holes that can crop up on long haul flying. Ignore the warnings of those pot holes at your peril. If at the end of the day you reckon that you're onto a good thing flogging around on an A330 at $150ishK then good luck and you're welcome to it.
Originally Posted by Douglas Mcdonnell
The quicker we can all unite and provide a barrier, the better.
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Fly a bigger plane, make 10 -14% more money and fly international...of course Jet* pilots will take the deal. The pilots started at the bottom of the pile and can only go up. If they dont take the deal it will go to someone else and they will be stuck flying A320's for the rest of their careers. You can't blame the Jet* pilot. Once it goes through just hope to work with them to get their conditions higher at a later date when the 787 arrives. Wish the pilot shortage would hurry up already. XER
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DM, get off your high horse, you too Rostov. You cracked the sh1ts in 89, then come back to Australia and fly for less than you were fighting for in 89, then have the audacity to say we should all work together? And then slag off at guys in Qantas for wanting to fight for and maintain some level of decent pay and conditions?
It's not all about money, some of us actually want to have a lifestyle as well. You Jetstar guys will end up selling yourselves out again, and when the time comes that your dead tired from working max hours in the tube, exemptions to CAO 48 kick in combined with the possibility of spending days off in your slip port etc, you will wonder whether it was all worth it.
It's not all about money, some of us actually want to have a lifestyle as well. You Jetstar guys will end up selling yourselves out again, and when the time comes that your dead tired from working max hours in the tube, exemptions to CAO 48 kick in combined with the possibility of spending days off in your slip port etc, you will wonder whether it was all worth it.
Last edited by Pete Conrad; 1st Feb 2006 at 22:35.
If they dont take the deal it will go to someone else and they will be stuck flying A320's for the rest of their careers. You can't blame the Jet* pilot. Once it goes through just hope to work with them to get their conditions higher at a later date when the 787 arrives.
NOW is the time for the JetStar pilots to push their conditions higher - not 'when the next aircraft type comes along' or 'once the airline is turning a profit' - I think everyone is well aware of how miserably that line failed for the DJ pilots, especially those who came back initially to get everything up & going on the promise of a better deal later on.
Another example of the above 'take it & try to improve it later' was with the recent mainline EBA. Those who have criticised the final result as lacking in fibre are exactly right - all the cries of 'show the company we can be flexible & we'll remain relevant' have proven to be worth naught - especially those who argued that 'doing the righty' by the company would see mainline pilots somehow get even a look in at the JetStar International jobs. All that it really did was maintain costs for the company, ensure that management KPI's were met, and that everyone involved on the management side received their bonuses.
Don't forget - some of the key players in getting the EBA through are the very same people who ensured that AIPA didn't/wouldn't attempt to cover the Impulse pilots when first approached - for some reason it wasn't even considered important enough to take to the troops for a vote. Think about that for a second . That was one of the prime reasons why the former committee was turfed. Unfortunately, from the tone of some posters here, it seems as though some people think that it is too little too late.
Let's hope not for everyones sake - especially for those guys who will be flying for JetStar International. The real benefits from flying long haul come in the form of extra $$$ in the form of overtime, and time off at home. Take away one or both of those things, and you are just left with what is a pretty boring & tiresome job.
Last edited by Johhny Utah; 2nd Feb 2006 at 01:41.
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by Pete Conrad
... when the time comes that your dead tired from working max hours in the tube, exemptions to CAO 48 kivk in combined with the possibility of spending days off in your slip port etc, you will wonder whether it was all worth it.
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The pay rates the clever JPC "negotiate" for the A330 J* WILL be the pay rates for the 787, J* Int and QF mainline, think anything else, you are kidding yourselves.
No wonder the QF boys and girls are getting rather pi$$ed with the arrogance of the JPC.
Thanks JPC for our future conditions! NOT!
No wonder the QF boys and girls are getting rather pi$$ed with the arrogance of the JPC.
Thanks JPC for our future conditions! NOT!
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Johhny, your spot on, where's the rationale for negotiating further advances in pay and conditions come into play as your airline becomes more profitable, when the parent company you work for already turns out record profits every year? Your also correct in saying basically that anybody who wants to fly long haul international for peanuts and work their pants off for it is welcome to it.
Instead of attacking pilots base pay and conditions, and I emphasise base here, the pilot groups could be looking for efficiencies and savings in other areas. And that doesn't include foregoing 3%pay rises as some enterprising individual suggested on Qcrewroom.
Instead of attacking pilots base pay and conditions, and I emphasise base here, the pilot groups could be looking for efficiencies and savings in other areas. And that doesn't include foregoing 3%pay rises as some enterprising individual suggested on Qcrewroom.
G'day again Prof
I didn't say the QF L/H award was perfect, and I didn't say a company should change it's commercial decisions to suit pilot lifestyles. You're quite correct in saying;
'... Jetstar are not going to change destination frequency just to suit the lifestyles of pilots. More importantly, how is more money going to improve the family life when sitting down route for “4 days”. It sux no matter what the income is.'
I accept that the company will factor in the lowest costs achievable from the pilots in question, and if those pilots can't figure out the adverse aspects of a proposition, they stand to carry an unpleasant burden until they (once again, having placed themselves in the predicament by ignoring history) trade off future pay-rises to improve their lifestyles.
What is evident to me though, is that if the work on offer (ie J*Int) is not fully understood then those pilots accepting the deal may be sorely disappointed when the reality turns out to be crap money and crap lifestyle. I believe J* pilots potentially face the prospect that despite their small contribution to the overall cost base (& remember that all pilots, even QF pilots, are a very small component of airline cost base!), their low pay may make the most marginal of route proposals 'worth a try' and hence find themselves sitting around a slip port accruing 'days off' on no pay at the company's pleasure. You ask why a company should pay for that time; I ask why a respectable company should expect its employees to have no 'credit' for time away on company service? A credit system does not give more money for being away as a trade-off against family time as you infer. I would make much more money and have more days off if all my flying was efficient 40hrs/7days etc. What a credit system does is redress in part those occasions when my company CAN'T, because of commercial priorities, get me to fly more while I'm at work and thereby goes some way to preserving a certain number of days off at home. Is that really so unreasonable?
Having said all that, if some are prepared to do it, it is not the management's fault for capitalising on such opportunities. They will make their money regardless and the profits will keep on coming as route 'experiments' are conducted at pilots expense.
As a 'retired airline manager' I'm sure you find the idea of easy, uncomplicated decisions within a contract tailored for minimal HR or humanising ramifications appealing. But you might also acknowledge that good managers have always managed, even complex employment contracts, to produce continual record profits. Sounds a bit like Qantas don't you think?
'... Jetstar are not going to change destination frequency just to suit the lifestyles of pilots. More importantly, how is more money going to improve the family life when sitting down route for “4 days”. It sux no matter what the income is.'
I accept that the company will factor in the lowest costs achievable from the pilots in question, and if those pilots can't figure out the adverse aspects of a proposition, they stand to carry an unpleasant burden until they (once again, having placed themselves in the predicament by ignoring history) trade off future pay-rises to improve their lifestyles.
What is evident to me though, is that if the work on offer (ie J*Int) is not fully understood then those pilots accepting the deal may be sorely disappointed when the reality turns out to be crap money and crap lifestyle. I believe J* pilots potentially face the prospect that despite their small contribution to the overall cost base (& remember that all pilots, even QF pilots, are a very small component of airline cost base!), their low pay may make the most marginal of route proposals 'worth a try' and hence find themselves sitting around a slip port accruing 'days off' on no pay at the company's pleasure. You ask why a company should pay for that time; I ask why a respectable company should expect its employees to have no 'credit' for time away on company service? A credit system does not give more money for being away as a trade-off against family time as you infer. I would make much more money and have more days off if all my flying was efficient 40hrs/7days etc. What a credit system does is redress in part those occasions when my company CAN'T, because of commercial priorities, get me to fly more while I'm at work and thereby goes some way to preserving a certain number of days off at home. Is that really so unreasonable?
Having said all that, if some are prepared to do it, it is not the management's fault for capitalising on such opportunities. They will make their money regardless and the profits will keep on coming as route 'experiments' are conducted at pilots expense.
As a 'retired airline manager' I'm sure you find the idea of easy, uncomplicated decisions within a contract tailored for minimal HR or humanising ramifications appealing. But you might also acknowledge that good managers have always managed, even complex employment contracts, to produce continual record profits. Sounds a bit like Qantas don't you think?
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Originally Posted by murgatroid
The pay rates the clever JPC "negotiate" for the A330 J* WILL be the pay rates for the 787, J* Int and QF mainline, think anything else, you are kidding yourselves.
No wonder the QF boys and girls are getting rather pi$$ed with the arrogance of the JPC.
Thanks JPC for our future conditions! NOT!
No wonder the QF boys and girls are getting rather pi$$ed with the arrogance of the JPC.
Thanks JPC for our future conditions! NOT!
It's a natural progression, 320, 330, 380.....
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I agree with most of the comment from Keg and Johnny Utah. Now is the time for consolidation, threats from management are commonplace nowadays. That is how a bully does it.. Hence lots of comments here and less on Qrewroom.
So AIPA let you fellas down. Many at mainline were not even at QF in those days...The junta never put it to a vote. The pilot group didn't do it to you, the present management of mainline FOps did. Sold out many friends too....It is small minded simple and typical of a group under pressure to think the pilot group sold you out. Your MOU for exchange of opportunities at mainline was accepted. You have got seniority in a company that you didn't necessarily apply to and in some cases were rejected by.
That is history fellas, you are there. You have a number in our system...
Many scheduling quirks will illuminate themselves. Keg is right the company will flog you to within an inch of the regulations..All the time the sword of damocles will swing over your head..."plenty more where you come from"
Maybe there are, maybe there are not..
I for one intend not to live in fear of that rubbish. They may extend the age to 65. An american carrier may fall over...But in the end the baby boomer demographic will create SHORTAGES ACROSS ALL SKILLED INDUSTRIES. Think the Chinese will be able to come and fly for us, they will have their own issues!
By the end of the decade shortages of skilled labour will approach 200,000. ask around. Better still go to a GA airfield and check the aggregate flying hours They are down, applications to mainline are declining..Companies are advertising in the Australian for pilots!
A substandard deal shows no one anything. Justifying it as payback does not enhance any your credibility as a group. There is pressure all around the company. It is comonplace thesedays as a way to extract more from employees...I hope most of the J* pilot group see it for what it is. Poker bluff 101. But mainline aren't exempt from the bluff....My colleagues voted for a long haul EBA that promised to show relevance and flexibility to the company....And whilst I voted no, 58% voted yes...Look where being good little boys got us!
As alluded to above LCC isn't necessarily low pay-look at Europe! Southwest benchmark their pilot remuneration against QF mainline..
So AIPA let you fellas down. Many at mainline were not even at QF in those days...The junta never put it to a vote. The pilot group didn't do it to you, the present management of mainline FOps did. Sold out many friends too....It is small minded simple and typical of a group under pressure to think the pilot group sold you out. Your MOU for exchange of opportunities at mainline was accepted. You have got seniority in a company that you didn't necessarily apply to and in some cases were rejected by.
That is history fellas, you are there. You have a number in our system...
Many scheduling quirks will illuminate themselves. Keg is right the company will flog you to within an inch of the regulations..All the time the sword of damocles will swing over your head..."plenty more where you come from"
Maybe there are, maybe there are not..
I for one intend not to live in fear of that rubbish. They may extend the age to 65. An american carrier may fall over...But in the end the baby boomer demographic will create SHORTAGES ACROSS ALL SKILLED INDUSTRIES. Think the Chinese will be able to come and fly for us, they will have their own issues!
By the end of the decade shortages of skilled labour will approach 200,000. ask around. Better still go to a GA airfield and check the aggregate flying hours They are down, applications to mainline are declining..Companies are advertising in the Australian for pilots!
A substandard deal shows no one anything. Justifying it as payback does not enhance any your credibility as a group. There is pressure all around the company. It is comonplace thesedays as a way to extract more from employees...I hope most of the J* pilot group see it for what it is. Poker bluff 101. But mainline aren't exempt from the bluff....My colleagues voted for a long haul EBA that promised to show relevance and flexibility to the company....And whilst I voted no, 58% voted yes...Look where being good little boys got us!
As alluded to above LCC isn't necessarily low pay-look at Europe! Southwest benchmark their pilot remuneration against QF mainline..
Last edited by QFinsider; 2nd Feb 2006 at 07:31.
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Hey Keg, just remember, only 190 odd guys are eligible to go across to mainline under the MOU. Everyone else new misses out. Its an unfair MOU. Anyway, its funny how the (few) QF fellas already in JQ really like the company, and the people, the flying, the aircraft & really don't want to go back.
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....." the hand of cooperation and friendship" what a load of utter cr@p.
All you lot spruiking off as though you are God's gift to aviation. A lot of you Impulse/Jetstar or whateva you want to call yourself this week NEVER had to participate in the QF selection process in the first place. The only hand of friendship that was offered was GD's to JM's "over a Crown Lager or 2" and the rest is history.
One company rescued and reinvented to be the BIGGEST bargaining tool GD himself could ever dream about.
And to the Holier than thou attitude of many a QF mainline driver, where was/is the hand of friendship to the other 2 forgotten about QF owned carriers(not AO).
Many very capable and professional people have been "trapped" at SSA and EAA for much much much longer than you pr1cks have been in QF, and let us not forget those who had jet transport jobs at another now extinct wholly owned subsiduary and through no fault of theirs, became victims of company politics and bullsh1t.
Where was this hand of friendship then. Only when it's about to jump up and bite you all on the arse do you finally give a flying f@ck.
Career in aviation in OZ,.............
"tell him he's dreamin......."
All you lot spruiking off as though you are God's gift to aviation. A lot of you Impulse/Jetstar or whateva you want to call yourself this week NEVER had to participate in the QF selection process in the first place. The only hand of friendship that was offered was GD's to JM's "over a Crown Lager or 2" and the rest is history.
One company rescued and reinvented to be the BIGGEST bargaining tool GD himself could ever dream about.
And to the Holier than thou attitude of many a QF mainline driver, where was/is the hand of friendship to the other 2 forgotten about QF owned carriers(not AO).
Many very capable and professional people have been "trapped" at SSA and EAA for much much much longer than you pr1cks have been in QF, and let us not forget those who had jet transport jobs at another now extinct wholly owned subsiduary and through no fault of theirs, became victims of company politics and bullsh1t.
Where was this hand of friendship then. Only when it's about to jump up and bite you all on the arse do you finally give a flying f@ck.
Career in aviation in OZ,.............
"tell him he's dreamin......."
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Keep arguing amongst ourselves and we lose. EAA/SAA should be on a mainline list End of story. They passed the test afterall.
As for J*- continue the malaise blaming mainline pilots. Management did it via their arm of AIPA...As Johnny Utah said who profits from the division???
As for friendship being extended the QF pilot group when ASKED DID in fact PASS an MOU giving pilots who had not taken or in some cases passed the QF testing a seniority number.
But it is easy to blame a a perceived culture of tall poppies, most of us aren't. Point the finger and as someone once remarked....
"As you sow so shall you reap"
As a pilot group you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution...But Keg is right, you will get cut to pieces by scheduling!
Yes Johnny take out time off and overtime-Longhaul is bloody soul destroying
As for J*- continue the malaise blaming mainline pilots. Management did it via their arm of AIPA...As Johnny Utah said who profits from the division???
As for friendship being extended the QF pilot group when ASKED DID in fact PASS an MOU giving pilots who had not taken or in some cases passed the QF testing a seniority number.
But it is easy to blame a a perceived culture of tall poppies, most of us aren't. Point the finger and as someone once remarked....
"As you sow so shall you reap"
As a pilot group you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution...But Keg is right, you will get cut to pieces by scheduling!
Yes Johnny take out time off and overtime-Longhaul is bloody soul destroying
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The pilots who were called this week for interviews, are they for International or domestic positions?
Is Jetstar prepared to pay for the upgrade to the 330 (and then again to the 787) for current 320 pilots (if so how many?) or are they going to employ rated 330 pilots from O/S and unrated GA pilots (and have them pay the $40K for the endorse)?
How many 330s are going to Jetstar?
Why do pilots now need to pass stage 1 (psych tests etc) while previously employed have either failed or have not been required to pass?
What is the proposed launch date for International ops?
WHEW!!
Is Jetstar prepared to pay for the upgrade to the 330 (and then again to the 787) for current 320 pilots (if so how many?) or are they going to employ rated 330 pilots from O/S and unrated GA pilots (and have them pay the $40K for the endorse)?
How many 330s are going to Jetstar?
Why do pilots now need to pass stage 1 (psych tests etc) while previously employed have either failed or have not been required to pass?
What is the proposed launch date for International ops?
WHEW!!