Jetstar A330 deal

[Keg]

I've got to say that the tired old mantra of 'you haven't done selection' or 'you got knocked back' or whatever is getting very old. I don't care how the J* crew came to be J* crew. The point is they are passing a CASA approved training program. The quicker we move beyond that point the better. They are QF group pilots and that is that. However, I'd hope that as pilots of the 'group' that they would act with the 'group' in mind- I know that I try to when it comes to industrial issues and the feedback I pass on to members of the COM.

What I AM irritated about is the constant theme that the J* crews are somehow 'sticking it' to the QF mainline crew for being able to fly aircraft at a much lower rate. It's a particularly Aussie thing to do in terms of trying to bring the perceived 'tall poppy' down to size (similar to the 'if I can't have it I'll make damned sure that you can't either' but it's ultimately pretty self defeating.

So, can we cut the historonics about psych tests and so on and ensure that we secure good conditions for all of us for the future. If the J* accept anything less than $185K per annum (plus O/T plus allowances) for the A330 then you are dudding yourselves in a BIG way. You do NOT have to accept less than this. There is NO gun to your head this time around.

As to our other QF group pilots in the regionals, yes you should have access and seniority- and not just via an MOU. A number of QF mainline drivers have been making that point for a number of years now. I don't know why it's never come about....although I suspect that the airline would make any and every effort to make an MOU very difficult to reach agreement on and then enact- similarly to how they are making it difficult for mainline crew to go to J* under the terms of the MOU. It deserves to happen and should be a priority in the medium term (to solve within two- three years!).

[E.P.]

Actually Keg it was a question, not a wind up.

Any chance you might crack a tinny or two and then attempt a rational answer to the rest of the questions?

[The Bunglerat]

Further to E.P.'s questions, could I get some clarification on the following: To anyone who did happen to get the call this week for an interview, are we talking actual "interviews" (as in sitting down in front of someone from J* and answering all manner of questions), or was the call simply to arrange a sitting for the skills & psych assessment?

Furthermore, whilst I realise the J* process is in line with QF, is it conducted in the same order, i.e. skills/psych first, followed by sim assessment, and then finally the interview? Or is it simply that those who have got the call already completed the other stuff at some earlier stage?

[Keg]

Sorry EP, my comments about the psych test and so on were not directed at you. Yours was a legit question and I have zero idea as to the answer.
My statement was directed towards the likes of nomasars. Whilst he makes a good point about Eastern and Sunnies, I find the bizzo about differences in selection to be distracting from the main game.

So, thanks for the advice about the tinnie. I may crack one in April when I've finished jumping through the fiery hoops I've got in front of me at the moment.

[Rostov]

Yes I agree Keg and also with the fact that there is no gun to the head this time.
With the JPC apparently having walked away from the negotiaying table twice now and being told three strikes and your out "you have had ample time to negotiate but you keep walking away" We need a start on preceedings or we are forced to start a new seperatist body to kick off the operation, what do you do call there bluff and see if yet another cheap(er)? operation has entered the market or take the expansion and add it to the negotiating strength in 2008. If there are QF,JQ and a seperate JQ international then the problems are much bigger..agree? What do you do?

[pondoklabu]

Congrats to the JPC if they have walked away twice because of ridiculous pay deals.
Rostov, don’t worry about another group of pilots.
All though QANTAS would love to get another group in on a the bidding down war the problem is what AOC would they use to operate wide body international jets up to 180 min ETOPS.
If Qantas want Jet* International to start in under 24 months they have to use current sources, its as simple as that.

Dixon and co can complain as much as they want, but there are some standard international governing rules they just cant get around.

Good luck to all Jetstar pilots, because guys remember you are not just fighting for your lively hoods but every other budding pilot that will follow you.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Gentlemen, I think you will find that jetstar crews want as much money as possible with beter conditions while at work. QF insider, I think what we are seeing now is to be expected. As Ive pointed out before, if there was acceptance and cooperation at the start jet star would not be able to exist. If you burn a group of people for a while, eventually they will turn and walk. I know that there are many great blokes in mainline. Its just a shame that the vocal protagonists always seem to have the floor. As for the "deal" being negotiated, we have no idea whats instore as there is virtuall no information flow. The "deal" then has to be accepted by the pilot group, that may not be as easy as you would think!!

My old mate Pete Conrad. Great to see you are back to your old best!!! Hows "Asia" treating you?

DM

[Truckster]

Further to what Pond said, apparently there has not yet even been an application for the appropriate AOC to CASA at this time.

If the first A330 is due to go in September, aren't they cutting it a bit fine?

Rumour also going around that the A330's will actually go to J* domestic. That would actually make a lot more sense than using them as a startup for J* International.

What would be smarter is to use AO, whose pilots would only need a 7 day conversion on to the 787 when it comes instead of the full 2-3 month conversion that an Airbus pilot would need. AO already have the AOC and ETOPS.

Sending A330's to J* Int would incur large costs for the QF group as a whole. Mainline pilots would be made surplus and would either be demoted or held on reserve lines doing F-all until the aeroplanes are returned. If they are demoted then QF would need to pay for them... again... to be converted on to the 767 or 737 and then possibly reconverted back on to the A330. We are talking millions here.

It may be a fait accompli. There seems to be a whiff of ideology involved here. Dixon may be prepared to take these losses now for the promise of huge savings in the future as the rate they pay for pilots is driven inexorably downward. J* pilots, the ball is firmly in your court.

Accept a substandard rate for the A330 now and you will have no come back for a higher rate on the 250 seater 787 when it arrives. You'll be paid less than the A320 rate.

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

Keg said - -What I AM irritated about is the constant theme that the J* crews are somehow 'sticking it' to the QF mainline crew for being able to fly aircraft at a much lower rate. I happen to be mates with a lot of Jetstar pilots, most of them being ex Ansett, but not all. The ones I know have no interest in sticking it to anybody – they just want a job in order to pay the bills. They are generally realistic enough to understand that although they would love to enjoy mainline pay and benefits, it just aint gunna happen at jetstar. A lot of guys here seem to think that the jetstar guys went racing to managers begging to operate the 330 at any cost. This is utter nonsense – many have flown International before and have little interest in doing anything other than spending time at home on the minivan.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Well said Dynasty. Pay and conditions are at the very top of the demand list at Jetstar. Most of us know whats involved with international ops. There are some very interesting times on the way. For all the continueing detractors from Qantas. Id be asking some very serious questions of your union. Ie why have they left you hanging in the breeze when this could have all been headed off 12 to 18 months ago? Perhaps jetstar guys should be dirty at you as a group because you let jet connect begin ops? Whats that I hear you say? You had nothing to do with it it was a managent decision!!! WELCOME TO THE CLUB.

DM

[Chimbu chuckles]

Truckster it would almost certainly be logistically easier to simply fold AO into J* and use the AO AOC/aircraft for the J* International ops. Particularly when 2 yrs down the track the 787s start arriving and it's time to transition the crews, at company expense, onto the new Boeing. As you rightly point out a les than two week course if coming from other glass cockpit Boeing or 6+ weeks coming from Airbus'.

What % of AO pilots would want to stay permanently in J* international?

I would suggest their options would be;

1/. Remain in Jetstar Int permanently and forget you were ever a QF Mainline employee...with all that entails or,

2/. Return to QF mainline via whatever mechanisms are in place for that eventuality.

As far as I am aware the vast majority of AO pilots, if not all, are merely seconded to AO and cannot imagine the vast majority, but probably not all, would not return to QF mainline given the above scenarios.

It will be indeed interesting to watch from a safe distance.

[Keg]

Originally Posted by Douglas Mcdonnell

Id be asking some very serious questions of your union. Ie why have they left you hanging in the breeze when this could have all been headed off 12 to 18 months ago? Perhaps jetstar guys should be dirty at you as a group because you let jet connect begin ops? DM

The questions have been asked. Why do you reckon a lot of the COM got thrown out? Many of us WERE dirty about letting jetconnect start and expressed that to the COM at the time. Averting the issue 12-18 months ago? We were well cut out of any deal by then! We had more than 1/3 of the pilot group turn up to a meeting (not bad when at least 1/2 the pilot group was away on service at the time) to express our displeasure about the way that J* was progressing without a coordinated approach. That show got us nowhere.

As an aside though, if we want to be working together, have you joined AIPA Douglas? How many of your compatriots have? You guys talk the talk, I hope you back it up in your walk.

Regards,
Keg

[E.P.]

No worries Keg......and good luck with that "burning ring of fire!!"

Bunglerat and I would still like to know the background of the pilots called for interviews this week and the other questions posed.

[polemic]

Keg,

Join AIPA, not going to happen in big numbers whilst the new AIPA platform is no more than 23 aircraft for Jet*, you starting to see the problem.

Having said that I wouldn't mind joining AIPA now that company paid LOL no longer thru AFAP, but added to the above is the court case between AFAP and AIPA about coverage

[Pete Conrad]

DM, and I pose the question to you, how has Jetconnect affected you in Jetstar and why should the Jetstar guys be upset at letting Jetconnect start?? If anything, the Jetconect guys were affected by Jetstar offering to fly, and succeeding in flying the Tasman at a lower cost than Jetconnect, thus potentially putting some of their guys out of work, or for the "lucky" ones who got jobs with Jetstar, had to then pay for their A320 rating! Thats right DM, Australians and KIWI's who once flew for Ansett being put out of work again by an Impulse mentality of Jetstar scragging for every bit of work they can get, and in true TJ style using the threat of not letting you hapless souls fly the Tasman if you didn't roll over your EBA. As Keg said, you guys talk the talk, but thats all you do.

Do not compare Jetconnect with Jetstar, for a start they have been around longer than Jetstar, secondly how have Jetconnect affected mainline to the point where Jetstar guys should be angry at them? They mostly do domestic NZ ops now apart from Tasman ops out of Wellington, the amount of work perceived to have been taken by them is nothing compared to what Jetstar has taken off mainline. Given the equipment Jetconnect operate and the conditions they operate under, you hear nothing but positive reports on Jetconnect, can't say you hear allot of positive reports about Jetstar DM, but hey DM, as you once said about Jetstar.."love the paintjob".

[QFinsider]

Keg is right DM...We weren't happy and when we got the opportunity we dismissed the group that allowed all this rubbish to begin to fester......

I have not heard a peep about J* losing flying to Jetconnect..

With the ex Ansett people in J* I sure hope their collective experience will provide some balance to the us and them thing. There is a the beginninings of generational change across our economy, incase you hadn't noticed. Many of the people who started the problems back in the watershed days are moving out to pasture...So step up to the plate fellas, vote wisely.....

Time to do the walk

[polemic]

PC

the reason you don't hear things about Jetconnect is for the same reason you didn't hear much about Impulse when operating as QLink, they weren't/aren't a threat to Mainline(lots of statements being thrown around about both ops flying obselete equipment and won't be around for long) which tendered to suit many.

Start a rumour about Jetconnect getting 30+ A330/787 and the story will be different

[Arsey Eight]

Jetstar = Low cost
Mainline = Full Service

The sooner people get their head around that, the better. Jetstar isn't the first low cost airline in the world to have lower conditions than say their bigger brother.

[newsensation]

Once upon a time the Qantas regionals, SSA, EAA, and SAA, thought they had a future growing into bigger and better things, then along comes Impulse with a bunch of pilots who would do anything to keep their jobs. GOD being the cunning person he is sees an opportunity to screw pilots wages and conditions, and the fact that Impulse was going broke posed an opportunity he could not resist, he pays off old GM and allows Impulse to trade as Qantaslink, giving them shiny new jets, thereby destroying any aspirations the regional pilots had of getting into a jet. These desperate pilots do a deal for themselves for free endorsements (some had already paid for B1900 endorsement) but any new employees had to pay, they also stitch up a deal for themselves only, for numbers in QF. J* is born. These pilots are paranoid, everyone is out to get them, the company will close down and they will be all out of work if they don’t accept the pay and conditions offered. The company is also cunning enough to foster this paranoia by hiring form the regionals (who are paid less than J*) and ex Ansett pilots (some post 89). AIPA had for years fostered a better than thou attitude now saw the erosion of there futures and started suggesting that they had a right to operate all things new after all they had passed the TEST to become Qantas Pilots.
So J* has now curtailed the futures of the regionals and Mainline and will continue to do so until AIPA produces a document that clearly states what it believes in and that it recognizes all Qantas employed pilots and their years of service.

[ur2]

Whoa, the old conspiricy theory.