ALAEA impotence (merged)
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Mr Qantas you can take the rest of the day off. If you persist with your name calling, you will be banned indefinitely.
Woomera Eastern States)
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Re: ALAEA impotence
I keep hearing this echo about stability and the preservation of jobs at any cost. Exactly what will you do to preserve jobs at any cost Mr. Qantas? WHere do you draw the line in the sand and say "So far, no further"?
What you say makes no sense because your argument is that any number of jobs can be destroyed provided that at least one job remains.
To put it another way, If Mr. Dixon announces that 3000 jobs are "under threat" (which is a great negotiating tactic) and following negotiations by the likes of yourself, 2900 jobs disappear and 100 minimum wage jobs remain, you will call this a "success".
The same tactic can be repeated ad infinitum, but then again, you must know that and have your own personal escape plan anyway.
What you say makes no sense because your argument is that any number of jobs can be destroyed provided that at least one job remains.
To put it another way, If Mr. Dixon announces that 3000 jobs are "under threat" (which is a great negotiating tactic) and following negotiations by the likes of yourself, 2900 jobs disappear and 100 minimum wage jobs remain, you will call this a "success".
The same tactic can be repeated ad infinitum, but then again, you must know that and have your own personal escape plan anyway.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
I noticed that Mr Qantas, in his defence of the industrial success rate of the trusted ALAEA staff, failed to mention was successes they had had.
In amongst the abuse and name calling it was suggested that they were successful because I still have a job.Well, had not a sufficient amount of my colleagues volunteered to cease work with Qantas I may not have had a job, the advice from the industrial staff to Qantas' intentions to reduce staff in Sydney was to move myself and my family to Brisbane or quit. There was no mention of the discussions had with Qantas on how to avoid the redundancies (as required by the EBA's) or to bring back some of the "overflow work" stolen by Forstaff in Avalon. In fact there was no discussion with the members affected by the job losses by anyone from the ALAEA exec or industrial staff, even though it was requested on numerous occasions.
Mr Qantas, you can praise the snr IR officer at the ALAEA until the cows come home, but your argument that a properly legally trained IR officer couldn't do the job is way off the mark.
What is required is a fresh approach with someone that Qantas can't bluff.
It is time for some changes.
In fact I don't think you'll get relected next elections either
In amongst the abuse and name calling it was suggested that they were successful because I still have a job.Well, had not a sufficient amount of my colleagues volunteered to cease work with Qantas I may not have had a job, the advice from the industrial staff to Qantas' intentions to reduce staff in Sydney was to move myself and my family to Brisbane or quit. There was no mention of the discussions had with Qantas on how to avoid the redundancies (as required by the EBA's) or to bring back some of the "overflow work" stolen by Forstaff in Avalon. In fact there was no discussion with the members affected by the job losses by anyone from the ALAEA exec or industrial staff, even though it was requested on numerous occasions.
Mr Qantas, you can praise the snr IR officer at the ALAEA until the cows come home, but your argument that a properly legally trained IR officer couldn't do the job is way off the mark.
What is required is a fresh approach with someone that Qantas can't bluff.
It is time for some changes.
In fact I don't think you'll get relected next elections either
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Turbo.......we've been down the road about forstaff taking syd's work for almost eight years ( yes eight years)!!!!. In order not to sound repititious the primary reason avv came into being was the lie by qf that they wanted to offshore maint. Now it is used very efficiently as a baton to use for the forthcoming battle with EBA'S in relation to IR. I know i'm rabbiting on a bit but i really do think we have to focus on what is ahead for all of engineering. Getting stuck in the mire with the likes of mr qf is going nowhere.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
What do you define as all engineering?
Is it maintaining a core base of servicing mechanics or is it attempting to preserve the entire qantas engineering team with all it's skills and experience and quality for future generations?
Or do you allow geoff and co make a quick buck and take a packet home when they quit?
Is it maintaining a core base of servicing mechanics or is it attempting to preserve the entire qantas engineering team with all it's skills and experience and quality for future generations?
Or do you allow geoff and co make a quick buck and take a packet home when they quit?
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Avalon. Another ALAEA success story. Setup by the union as a joint venture for overflow work out of Sydney. 1000 heavy staff now reduced to 200 so a cut price facility within our country can reduce the wages and conditions of Aussie LAMEs.
Mr Qantas, when you are allowed to return, can you please elaborate on the wins the ALAEA has had over the past 2 years within the courts to defend our wages, conditions and job security? Can you do that without being abusive to the other readers? The only win I am aware of is the battle to keep the AMWU out of Avalon. How does this benefit our members? A single union representing engineers at a cut price maint facility that CR and friends helped setup.
Mr Qantas would you like to explain what the ALAEA is doing for the members at Avalon? What have they done to obtain parity between the Forstaff guys and those at Qantas? Do you understand what you are saying or see the big picture of what the airline and union have done together to damage our members? Where are the 800 guys who no longer work in HM?
Take your experienced leaders and idolise them in your own capacity. LAMEs at Qantas and Avalon have had enough of the secret meetings and deals behind closed doors. The actions of the senior ALAEA officials is completely transparent and every step as predictable as the next. Just waiting for them to invite BD back into the Bexley offices to "fight for our jobs".
Mr Qantas, when you are allowed to return, can you please elaborate on the wins the ALAEA has had over the past 2 years within the courts to defend our wages, conditions and job security? Can you do that without being abusive to the other readers? The only win I am aware of is the battle to keep the AMWU out of Avalon. How does this benefit our members? A single union representing engineers at a cut price maint facility that CR and friends helped setup.
Mr Qantas would you like to explain what the ALAEA is doing for the members at Avalon? What have they done to obtain parity between the Forstaff guys and those at Qantas? Do you understand what you are saying or see the big picture of what the airline and union have done together to damage our members? Where are the 800 guys who no longer work in HM?
Take your experienced leaders and idolise them in your own capacity. LAMEs at Qantas and Avalon have had enough of the secret meetings and deals behind closed doors. The actions of the senior ALAEA officials is completely transparent and every step as predictable as the next. Just waiting for them to invite BD back into the Bexley offices to "fight for our jobs".
Re: ALAEA impotence
Dear Dear Mr. Qantas! You have absolutely no logical basis for your statement "We can thank the alaea that this work isnt in China". You only have your negotiating opponents word for that. You cannot prove it!
Mr. Qantas. There is such a thing as a bluff. Now a bluff occurs when someone threatens to perform some act that is going to be deleterious to you. You have no way of knowing if the other person is going to perform this act or not. It is merely a threat.
Now there is only one way to discover if another person is bluffing and that is to "call" the bluff. In other words refuse to behave as requested by the threatener.
Now it appears to me from ALL your posts that you are a credulous believer in EACH AND EVERY THREAT that QF management has ever made, and furthermore, you consistently repeat these threats to your members as if they were true. In other words, you have never, ever, called Qantas as bluffing.
Now there are a number of possible reasons for this. You may judge that the company is not bluffing on the basis of your superior knowledge of world maintenance demand and developments. But on the other hand, you may have no such knowledge and be concerned to preserve your own employment at whatever cost.
Trouble is the only way to know if the company is bluffing is to call it, and then live with the industrial consequences.
I had a gutfull of worthless union reps who sold us out in the 70's and early 80's - and who subsequently joined the company in HR.
I would suggest to you that if QF told you that unless your members agreed to work for five dollars an hour, that their maintenance jobs were going to be moved to Zambia, you would tell all your members to agree immediately.
The correct response is often to call the bluff - something you will never do.
Mr. Qantas. There is such a thing as a bluff. Now a bluff occurs when someone threatens to perform some act that is going to be deleterious to you. You have no way of knowing if the other person is going to perform this act or not. It is merely a threat.
Now there is only one way to discover if another person is bluffing and that is to "call" the bluff. In other words refuse to behave as requested by the threatener.
Now it appears to me from ALL your posts that you are a credulous believer in EACH AND EVERY THREAT that QF management has ever made, and furthermore, you consistently repeat these threats to your members as if they were true. In other words, you have never, ever, called Qantas as bluffing.
Now there are a number of possible reasons for this. You may judge that the company is not bluffing on the basis of your superior knowledge of world maintenance demand and developments. But on the other hand, you may have no such knowledge and be concerned to preserve your own employment at whatever cost.
Trouble is the only way to know if the company is bluffing is to call it, and then live with the industrial consequences.
I had a gutfull of worthless union reps who sold us out in the 70's and early 80's - and who subsequently joined the company in HR.
I would suggest to you that if QF told you that unless your members agreed to work for five dollars an hour, that their maintenance jobs were going to be moved to Zambia, you would tell all your members to agree immediately.
The correct response is often to call the bluff - something you will never do.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
As incredulous as this may sound especially to ******** Mr Q that all the years of squabbling, back stabbing & **** ******for courses to become the aspired to position of LAME has caused a gluttony in the Australian market and hence the demise of our power/stature.
How can a local operator compete in the world market when a high percentage of the workforce are LAME’s with too many being paid to rarely exercise their privileges and generally do **** ** except to prance around and proclaim themselves as the pinnacle of aviation in the world and waste time till the office job comes up. In reality their License is not recognised as equal in most parts of the world and the company has no hope of attracting foreign planes for maintenance to sustain the maintenance facility when there is an inefficient, over priced workforce continually venting their dissent at the company and the system.
Companies don’t give a rat’s about your belief in fastidious maintenance anymore, they just want the job done for as little as possible with minimum guidelines satisfied and out the door as quick as possible, this is the unfortunate way Airline’s think today, including Q and if you don’t change with the evolving maintenance of aircraft then maybe you should re-think your career path.
The ALAEA are only part of the problem though their clandestine antics are not helping the situation.
Mr Q just take a good look around at you and your draconian cronies and clean up your own inefficiencies in your backyard instead of vexing your poisonous innuendo at a workforce your helping to destroy, typical blame policy that should be dead in today’s society, the problems in Q start at the top.
And on the point of AVV, they had a perfect opportunity to be a competitive lean engineering MRO but opted to follow Q’s line and now the dissent there exceeds Mascot with more incompetent, over paid Chiefs than Indians, it seems that if they don’t pick up their game that the workers will have to go knocking for work on the door of the American conglomerate invasion soon to hit the shores of AVV, might get a bit hot in a Walt Disney costume though!!
edited for profanity and vilification W
How can a local operator compete in the world market when a high percentage of the workforce are LAME’s with too many being paid to rarely exercise their privileges and generally do **** ** except to prance around and proclaim themselves as the pinnacle of aviation in the world and waste time till the office job comes up. In reality their License is not recognised as equal in most parts of the world and the company has no hope of attracting foreign planes for maintenance to sustain the maintenance facility when there is an inefficient, over priced workforce continually venting their dissent at the company and the system.
Companies don’t give a rat’s about your belief in fastidious maintenance anymore, they just want the job done for as little as possible with minimum guidelines satisfied and out the door as quick as possible, this is the unfortunate way Airline’s think today, including Q and if you don’t change with the evolving maintenance of aircraft then maybe you should re-think your career path.
The ALAEA are only part of the problem though their clandestine antics are not helping the situation.
Mr Q just take a good look around at you and your draconian cronies and clean up your own inefficiencies in your backyard instead of vexing your poisonous innuendo at a workforce your helping to destroy, typical blame policy that should be dead in today’s society, the problems in Q start at the top.
And on the point of AVV, they had a perfect opportunity to be a competitive lean engineering MRO but opted to follow Q’s line and now the dissent there exceeds Mascot with more incompetent, over paid Chiefs than Indians, it seems that if they don’t pick up their game that the workers will have to go knocking for work on the door of the American conglomerate invasion soon to hit the shores of AVV, might get a bit hot in a Walt Disney costume though!!
edited for profanity and vilification W
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jan 2006 at 09:05.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
lets see-qantas future direction for engineering-
sack every one employ a handfull LAMEs and tell the goverment they need skilled workers due to a unforseen lack of manpower. go oversea's and recruit a bunch of philapinoes and bring them back on the new IR laws paid $10 bucks per hour they work 16 hours per day and a handfull LAMEs to supervise.
-call it extreme but it could happen
sack every one employ a handfull LAMEs and tell the goverment they need skilled workers due to a unforseen lack of manpower. go oversea's and recruit a bunch of philapinoes and bring them back on the new IR laws paid $10 bucks per hour they work 16 hours per day and a handfull LAMEs to supervise.
-call it extreme but it could happen
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Re: ALAEA impotence
[QUOTE=...so a cut price facility within our country can reduce the wages and conditions of Aussie LAMEs. ...".[/QUOTE]
Please goatrider could you explain how Forstaff employees are disadvantaged with regard to pay scales compared to QF? From what I have read of the respective agreements, they are almost identical. Otherwise, I'll assume that you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument
edited for profanity/vilification W
Please goatrider could you explain how Forstaff employees are disadvantaged with regard to pay scales compared to QF? From what I have read of the respective agreements, they are almost identical. Otherwise, I'll assume that you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument
edited for profanity/vilification W
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jan 2006 at 09:07.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Good question ****,
Firstly I have not declared that the pay scales aren’t the same although the Forstaff agreement doesn’t recognise payment for all Qantas aircraft. I like the way you have tried to twist that one to suit your purpose. I claim that the cut price maintenance facility reduces the wages and conditions of Australian LAMEs by taking the entire package as a whole and comparing it to Qantas employed staff. Lets look how they do this.
- restricted access to staff travel.
- no recognition in the licence pay system for other aircraft licences held within the Qantas fleet.
- refusal by Forstaff management to negotiate or attend meetings whilst the two elected Forstaff ALAEA Councillors are in attendance.
- payment for 737 rating only whilst working the aircraft.
- substandard and limited issue of uniforms.
- compulsory overtime banking.
- no right to site representation by the AMWU.
- no options for redeployment to other Qantas departments through redundancy programs.
- inability to apply internally for vacancies within the Qantas system.
The list goes on and on **** but I’m sure you are aware of all the problems that the ALAEA have swept under the carpet over the years. Also I think you’d know about the single biggest saving the airline has made by eliminating the positions of hundreds of long serving, high level Sydney LAMEs and replacing the positions at the cut price facility with new employees all starting at the bottom end of the pay scale. Many of them imported from overseas with non English speaking backgrounds. Taking jobs from Australians who can’t afford the wage cut and travel expenses to the ass end of the earth.
Thanks for the question mate; I feel like I’m the Minister of Transport here and have just been asked a question from one of my own backbenchers during parliamentary question time. Look forward to dealing with you, **** and the rest of the Qantas management team in the near future.
edited for outing, we do not use real names without the express permission of the individuals concerned. This would normally invoke a ban W
Firstly I have not declared that the pay scales aren’t the same although the Forstaff agreement doesn’t recognise payment for all Qantas aircraft. I like the way you have tried to twist that one to suit your purpose. I claim that the cut price maintenance facility reduces the wages and conditions of Australian LAMEs by taking the entire package as a whole and comparing it to Qantas employed staff. Lets look how they do this.
- restricted access to staff travel.
- no recognition in the licence pay system for other aircraft licences held within the Qantas fleet.
- refusal by Forstaff management to negotiate or attend meetings whilst the two elected Forstaff ALAEA Councillors are in attendance.
- payment for 737 rating only whilst working the aircraft.
- substandard and limited issue of uniforms.
- compulsory overtime banking.
- no right to site representation by the AMWU.
- no options for redeployment to other Qantas departments through redundancy programs.
- inability to apply internally for vacancies within the Qantas system.
The list goes on and on **** but I’m sure you are aware of all the problems that the ALAEA have swept under the carpet over the years. Also I think you’d know about the single biggest saving the airline has made by eliminating the positions of hundreds of long serving, high level Sydney LAMEs and replacing the positions at the cut price facility with new employees all starting at the bottom end of the pay scale. Many of them imported from overseas with non English speaking backgrounds. Taking jobs from Australians who can’t afford the wage cut and travel expenses to the ass end of the earth.
Thanks for the question mate; I feel like I’m the Minister of Transport here and have just been asked a question from one of my own backbenchers during parliamentary question time. Look forward to dealing with you, **** and the rest of the Qantas management team in the near future.
edited for outing, we do not use real names without the express permission of the individuals concerned. This would normally invoke a ban W
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jan 2006 at 09:10.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
That was like the opposition giving the government a "dorothy dixer".
I can see why qf management have walked all over these guys for years, without them even realising.
In fact, that was probably the best example of "ALAEA Impotence" (as the thread is titled) that I have ever seen.
I can see why qf management have walked all over these guys for years, without them even realising.
In fact, that was probably the best example of "ALAEA Impotence" (as the thread is titled) that I have ever seen.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Goatrooter.
As impressive as others have found your response, I am singularly unimpressed as usual, when you take into account, amongst others, the fact that Forstaff are not Qantas:
- Staff Travel is made available to employees who do not work for QF (A positive)
- Licence recognition of other Qantas types is indeed an issue which needs to be addressed by the ALAEA. However, as other posters have stated, today's MRO's are unlikely to acquiesce
- the Forstaff Councillors are sadly lacking in any ability to represent themselves, let alone their members
- the 737 issue has beeng handled disgracefully by the ALAEA IMO
- uniforms are an OH&S issue currently under discussion I believe
- O/T Banking has been accepted at QF in HM, and having worked it I think it is a positive option for those who work-to-live not the other way about
- I would no more wish to be represented by the metals than fly
- no redeployment options? As said before, it's not QF
- internal application (see above)
As understandingly distasteful as Avalon is for long term Qantas LAMEs it has been a godsend for those who haven't worked for the rat and infact has allowed some of us, through Avalon, to join your illustrious (I'm being sarcastic) ranks. So, I believe that some of those who have never worked for the Qantas sheltered workshop may at least be grateful to the ALAEA for having jobs at Avalon, whilst being dissatisfied and indeed bitter with their performance of late - most notably the 737 payment debacle which, to those of us who live outside of the sheltered workshop, was a sell out to satisfy those inside (that means you idiot).
Whilst there are those who think my query was a Dorothy Dixer, your response indeed shows that "you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument" once again. Most of those whingeing on this forum re the ALAEA performance or "the colour of the toilet paper in the sh!thouse", or in fact anything, are long term QF, and having come from outside the organisation you are well known for that. Having said that, idiots like Mr Qantas show that indeed, there are more than one type of d!ckhead in the sheltered workshop.
As impressive as others have found your response, I am singularly unimpressed as usual, when you take into account, amongst others, the fact that Forstaff are not Qantas:
- Staff Travel is made available to employees who do not work for QF (A positive)
- Licence recognition of other Qantas types is indeed an issue which needs to be addressed by the ALAEA. However, as other posters have stated, today's MRO's are unlikely to acquiesce
- the Forstaff Councillors are sadly lacking in any ability to represent themselves, let alone their members
- the 737 issue has beeng handled disgracefully by the ALAEA IMO
- uniforms are an OH&S issue currently under discussion I believe
- O/T Banking has been accepted at QF in HM, and having worked it I think it is a positive option for those who work-to-live not the other way about
- I would no more wish to be represented by the metals than fly
- no redeployment options? As said before, it's not QF
- internal application (see above)
As understandingly distasteful as Avalon is for long term Qantas LAMEs it has been a godsend for those who haven't worked for the rat and infact has allowed some of us, through Avalon, to join your illustrious (I'm being sarcastic) ranks. So, I believe that some of those who have never worked for the Qantas sheltered workshop may at least be grateful to the ALAEA for having jobs at Avalon, whilst being dissatisfied and indeed bitter with their performance of late - most notably the 737 payment debacle which, to those of us who live outside of the sheltered workshop, was a sell out to satisfy those inside (that means you idiot).
Whilst there are those who think my query was a Dorothy Dixer, your response indeed shows that "you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument" once again. Most of those whingeing on this forum re the ALAEA performance or "the colour of the toilet paper in the sh!thouse", or in fact anything, are long term QF, and having come from outside the organisation you are well known for that. Having said that, idiots like Mr Qantas show that indeed, there are more than one type of d!ckhead in the sheltered workshop.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
quote=...so a cut price facility within our country can reduce the wages and conditions of Aussie LAMEs. ...".
Please goatrider could you explain how Forstaff employees are disadvantaged with regard to pay scales compared to QF? From what I have read of the respective agreements, they are almost identical. Otherwise, I'll assume that you are partaking in your usual tactic of misrepresenting the facts to support your argument
I also note that AN Lame acknowledged the significant differences between the 2 awards. Therefore actually agreeing with you "T.M.G.R.". and earning the tag "Dorothy Dixer"
It wouldn't surprise me if the ALAEA try to sell a no claim EBA next time round, because they fear the new IR rules?
edited for profanity in quote not post W
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jan 2006 at 09:13.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Originally Posted by AN LAME
Goatrider
- O/T Banking has been accepted at QF in HM,
- O/T Banking has been accepted at QF in HM,
O/T Banking in H/M wasn't accepted by the H/M staff, Mate.
It was recommended by 2 ignorant and irresponsible councillors representing H/M against the wishes of those they represented.
One of those fools even refused to tell his blokes if he voted for it or not.
The other one would believe anything he was told by CR and the Fed Pres.
I couldn't find 5% of the members in H/M supporting an O/T bank.(or for that matter a difference in tail payments to the members in servicing).
edited for profanity in quote W
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jan 2006 at 09:14.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Speedy response AN LAME and thanks for confirming that each of the points I have raised is valid. Yes they don't work for Qantas and the wages and conditions at the cut price Avalon maint facility set up by the ALAEA have put 800 Sydney staff out of work.
Would you like to try and shoot me down again?
Would you like to try and shoot me down again?
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Re: ALAEA impotence
****
Why dont you crawl back into the hole that you dug for yourself whilst still on the commitee of the ALAEA
edited for outing and will attract a banning the next time W
Why dont you crawl back into the hole that you dug for yourself whilst still on the commitee of the ALAEA
edited for outing and will attract a banning the next time W
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Jan 2006 at 09:15.
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Right chaps.
It's taken me about 30 minutes of my time to clean up this important thread.
It would have been easier to just bin it
Zero tolerance from now on on profanity and outing, you all may know who is who but others dont. As a result they, the others, may form an opinion about someone they may think they may know but do not.
And it wont be just this thread.
There would normally be some bannings and time out but in this case every body as had a fair shake.
It is possible to have a vigourous and robust discussion without resorting to name calling kicking or eye gouging.
No arguments please just keep on going but without the angst.
See I can convey my emotion with a simple smiley
It's taken me about 30 minutes of my time to clean up this important thread.
It would have been easier to just bin it
Zero tolerance from now on on profanity and outing, you all may know who is who but others dont. As a result they, the others, may form an opinion about someone they may think they may know but do not.
And it wont be just this thread.
There would normally be some bannings and time out but in this case every body as had a fair shake.
It is possible to have a vigourous and robust discussion without resorting to name calling kicking or eye gouging.
No arguments please just keep on going but without the angst.
See I can convey my emotion with a simple smiley
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Re: ALAEA impotence
Has anyone wondered how some of the people at avalon with non English speaking backgrounds who can hardly speak English now let alone write it are completing the job cards they are signing for let alone reading the M.M.understanding it and working to it.