Branson flies in to discuss new Intl airline
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Gnadenburg,
Me thinks your posting is more windup than serious debate, especially with the “professional manners to clean the backyard before they leave” rubbish and the “I feel they give nothing to the profession and only taking” garbage.
Perhaps you can give us all an example of where you have “given” to the industry.
“Keeping it simple yes I do feel threatened by Low Cost pilots. I have been undercut by them before”.
Oh really. You mean you were offering your services at a price higher than the market was willing to pay and as a result the offer of your services was declined. Such is the beauty of market capitalism.
“I hope you get home Z- sincerely. But I think your services are worth more than flying for 69K a year, paying for an endorsement and flying for Branson out of Sydney.”
You don’t read peoples posts very well. At no stage did I indicate an interest to work for a Virgin longhaul operation flying in Australia. You are attempting to debate a complete non issue with me.
I am glad that you have an opinion about what my services are worth, but excuse me if I value my own opinion about my fiscal welfare a little more than yours.
Also, I was wondering if you actually know what a paradigm shift is. The two common definitions are “acceptance by a majority of a changed belief, attitude, or way of doing things” and “a fundamental change in approach or assumptions”.
Neither definition even remotely supports the argument you are attempting to make.
Over to you.
Me thinks your posting is more windup than serious debate, especially with the “professional manners to clean the backyard before they leave” rubbish and the “I feel they give nothing to the profession and only taking” garbage.
Perhaps you can give us all an example of where you have “given” to the industry.
“Keeping it simple yes I do feel threatened by Low Cost pilots. I have been undercut by them before”.
Oh really. You mean you were offering your services at a price higher than the market was willing to pay and as a result the offer of your services was declined. Such is the beauty of market capitalism.
“I hope you get home Z- sincerely. But I think your services are worth more than flying for 69K a year, paying for an endorsement and flying for Branson out of Sydney.”
You don’t read peoples posts very well. At no stage did I indicate an interest to work for a Virgin longhaul operation flying in Australia. You are attempting to debate a complete non issue with me.
I am glad that you have an opinion about what my services are worth, but excuse me if I value my own opinion about my fiscal welfare a little more than yours.
Also, I was wondering if you actually know what a paradigm shift is. The two common definitions are “acceptance by a majority of a changed belief, attitude, or way of doing things” and “a fundamental change in approach or assumptions”.
Neither definition even remotely supports the argument you are attempting to make.
Over to you.
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And yet an end to another interesting topic.
Can I make a suggestion? Well I will anyway:
STOP BEING SO F*KIN IMMATURE!!!
Keep the topic to its original contents please.
Far too often I see slanging on this forum, it's giving me the ****s.
You wanna cry, be a politician.
Can I make a suggestion? Well I will anyway:
STOP BEING SO F*KIN IMMATURE!!!
Keep the topic to its original contents please.
Far too often I see slanging on this forum, it's giving me the ****s.
You wanna cry, be a politician.
Rocksteady
Sorry. But despite the bitter one liners from offended low cost pilots, the start up structures and pay & conditions of a new Branson airline bears extreme relevance to the pilot community.
I think a good core of EK pilots will come home for this start up. A few of Mr Raby's good guys may get the nod for permament, well paying management positions, after initial start up help from Virgin Atlantic.
ur2
Z-Blood asked the question and I did answer taking the discussion into not so relevant areas.
May I also suggest that a low cost pilot, flying 900hrs a year until 65 to fund retirement, heading for a graveyard a bit quicker than a soundly set up pilot from from a major carrier. Anecdotal evidence suggests that when you pay for an endorsement, management generally treads on you in conditions of service aswell- i doubt if low cost pilots in Oz have life extending, lifestyle positions.
Z-Blood
Going nowhere this discussion. To start questioning my use a paradigm shift an example of you purely playing Devil's Advocate.
Another waste of a paragraph due playing the man and not the issue. So here goes- the paradigm ancient Greek, Kuhn's use in science or a more colloquial, contemporary usage?
I use the expression in the context of a transformation of rules and standards of practice by airline management in requiring airline training to be funded by pilots. Previously, expensive training provided by the airlines. If Ozjet and Virgin's new Australian international arm require pilots to pay for training, I am satisfied that a paradigm shift has occured in Australia - although pure Greek theorists may demand that Qantas must require it's pilots to pay for their training for the complete shift in thought and application.
You question where I have been undercut? Well that's bleeden obvious. Since the early 90's every new airline in Australia has pilots undercutting the last group- Ansett undercut by QF B scale, QF B scale undercut by Virgin, Impulse undercutting a couple of times in different guises, NJS undercutting Impulse and now the very real possibility of two new airlines undercutting all again! Pac Blue & Jetconnect fit nicely in there somewhere too.
I gather you work for CX or KA. And you think when the next round of basings come up in Australia they are going to compare your conditions to QF conditions? No. The threat is if conditions are eroded further by a new Branson startup, the wages pressure extends downward for QF pilots, foreign airline pilots based here and all of a sudden, Virgin Blue pilots are looking expensive too!
I was referencing " giving to the profession"' and not just taking. Giving something in return for the next generation. This involves the not so easy task of maintaining or bettering conditions of service. It means not signing off on a lower payscale for future generations for a payrise for your generation. A job hopping low cost pilot is taking from the profession and exascerbating downward pressures.
I must add if the spiral continues, it may well be time for those with better conditions of service, to sell out the hoards at the gate.
And without playing the man over to you. Where do you stand on the downward spiral? Do you believe Branson's new airline not going to affect you?
Sorry. But despite the bitter one liners from offended low cost pilots, the start up structures and pay & conditions of a new Branson airline bears extreme relevance to the pilot community.
I think a good core of EK pilots will come home for this start up. A few of Mr Raby's good guys may get the nod for permament, well paying management positions, after initial start up help from Virgin Atlantic.
ur2
Z-Blood asked the question and I did answer taking the discussion into not so relevant areas.
May I also suggest that a low cost pilot, flying 900hrs a year until 65 to fund retirement, heading for a graveyard a bit quicker than a soundly set up pilot from from a major carrier. Anecdotal evidence suggests that when you pay for an endorsement, management generally treads on you in conditions of service aswell- i doubt if low cost pilots in Oz have life extending, lifestyle positions.
Z-Blood
Going nowhere this discussion. To start questioning my use a paradigm shift an example of you purely playing Devil's Advocate.
Another waste of a paragraph due playing the man and not the issue. So here goes- the paradigm ancient Greek, Kuhn's use in science or a more colloquial, contemporary usage?
I use the expression in the context of a transformation of rules and standards of practice by airline management in requiring airline training to be funded by pilots. Previously, expensive training provided by the airlines. If Ozjet and Virgin's new Australian international arm require pilots to pay for training, I am satisfied that a paradigm shift has occured in Australia - although pure Greek theorists may demand that Qantas must require it's pilots to pay for their training for the complete shift in thought and application.
You question where I have been undercut? Well that's bleeden obvious. Since the early 90's every new airline in Australia has pilots undercutting the last group- Ansett undercut by QF B scale, QF B scale undercut by Virgin, Impulse undercutting a couple of times in different guises, NJS undercutting Impulse and now the very real possibility of two new airlines undercutting all again! Pac Blue & Jetconnect fit nicely in there somewhere too.
I gather you work for CX or KA. And you think when the next round of basings come up in Australia they are going to compare your conditions to QF conditions? No. The threat is if conditions are eroded further by a new Branson startup, the wages pressure extends downward for QF pilots, foreign airline pilots based here and all of a sudden, Virgin Blue pilots are looking expensive too!
I was referencing " giving to the profession"' and not just taking. Giving something in return for the next generation. This involves the not so easy task of maintaining or bettering conditions of service. It means not signing off on a lower payscale for future generations for a payrise for your generation. A job hopping low cost pilot is taking from the profession and exascerbating downward pressures.
I must add if the spiral continues, it may well be time for those with better conditions of service, to sell out the hoards at the gate.
And without playing the man over to you. Where do you stand on the downward spiral? Do you believe Branson's new airline not going to affect you?
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Gnads,
I think you are missing the point in life.
If you are happy you will live longer. Anecdotal evidence proves that if you have more money and spend most of your life away from family and your chosen home, your life will not only be less rewarding but shorter.
If you do 900hrs a year on less money but live at home and are happy, why is that a lesser life than if you do 800hrs a year on a bit better money but spend most of your life in a foreign country.
Your missing it Gnads.
I think you are missing the point in life.
If you are happy you will live longer. Anecdotal evidence proves that if you have more money and spend most of your life away from family and your chosen home, your life will not only be less rewarding but shorter.
If you do 900hrs a year on less money but live at home and are happy, why is that a lesser life than if you do 800hrs a year on a bit better money but spend most of your life in a foreign country.
Your missing it Gnads.
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“I gather you work for CX or KA” .
Very close. Or maybe not even close – it matters not.
“And you think when the next round of basings come up in Australia they are going to compare your conditions to QF conditions?”
No, the last thing I would expect is for a foreign carrier to use QF mainline as a benchmark when drawing up conditions of service. Like many legacy carriers, QF mainline conditions have evolved over decades of industrial combat and bear little resemblance to current market conditions.
“The threat is if conditions are eroded further by a new Branson startup, the wages pressure extends downward for QF pilots, foreign airline pilots based here and all of a sudden, Virgin Blue pilots are looking expensive too!”
Gnadenburg, your previous posts have indicated that you make career choices on financial matters alone. One could therefore conclude that you have absolutely no interest in returning home to Australia where the pay and conditions of airline pilots will always be lower than their counterparts in Asia. Why do you have such an interest in the welfare of pilots working for Virgin Blue, Qantas or any foreign carrier with locally based crew?
“Giving something in return for the next generation”
Isn’t it convenient that your financial goals are perfectly aligned with what you see as the financial goals of the next generation. Such generosity.
Do you believe Branson's new airline not going to affect you?”
Of course I do. There are a million factors out there that will affect my position and salary but I refuse to be stressed by the factors that I cannot change. Branson will set up an airline in Australia irregardless of how much money you think you deserve to be paid.
Very close. Or maybe not even close – it matters not.
“And you think when the next round of basings come up in Australia they are going to compare your conditions to QF conditions?”
No, the last thing I would expect is for a foreign carrier to use QF mainline as a benchmark when drawing up conditions of service. Like many legacy carriers, QF mainline conditions have evolved over decades of industrial combat and bear little resemblance to current market conditions.
“The threat is if conditions are eroded further by a new Branson startup, the wages pressure extends downward for QF pilots, foreign airline pilots based here and all of a sudden, Virgin Blue pilots are looking expensive too!”
Gnadenburg, your previous posts have indicated that you make career choices on financial matters alone. One could therefore conclude that you have absolutely no interest in returning home to Australia where the pay and conditions of airline pilots will always be lower than their counterparts in Asia. Why do you have such an interest in the welfare of pilots working for Virgin Blue, Qantas or any foreign carrier with locally based crew?
“Giving something in return for the next generation”
Isn’t it convenient that your financial goals are perfectly aligned with what you see as the financial goals of the next generation. Such generosity.
Do you believe Branson's new airline not going to affect you?”
Of course I do. There are a million factors out there that will affect my position and salary but I refuse to be stressed by the factors that I cannot change. Branson will set up an airline in Australia irregardless of how much money you think you deserve to be paid.
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Gnads,
SQ pay captains for oz basings about $180000. CX pax fleet pay even more. Whey do you think VS would be paying $69000. Pretty significant difference.
Your argument appears to revolve around the concept of denying people the right to make career decisions for reasons that differ to yours. Some people don’t rate “Multi currency loans” and “CGT advantages” as highly as things such as clean air, for example.
SQ pay captains for oz basings about $180000. CX pax fleet pay even more. Whey do you think VS would be paying $69000. Pretty significant difference.
Your argument appears to revolve around the concept of denying people the right to make career decisions for reasons that differ to yours. Some people don’t rate “Multi currency loans” and “CGT advantages” as highly as things such as clean air, for example.
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Gnadenburg, You said.
“May I also suggest that a low cost pilot, flying 900hrs a year until 65 to fund retirement, heading for a graveyard a bit quicker than a soundly set up pilot from from a major carrier. Anecdotal evidence suggests that when you pay for an endorsement, management generally treads on you in conditions of service aswell- I doubt if low cost pilots in Oz have life extending, lifestyle positions.”
Your argument is idealistic but not based in reality. Most, if not all people, would choose a higher paid position with other factors being equal if given the chance. But not everyone is in a position to choose. I know of many qualified pilots with Airbus ratings that have not been offered employment by Dragonair, or do not want to relocate overseas and have missed out on the obtuse selection process at Qantas.
But, they are now in the LHS of a Jetstar 320 or VB 737 making 2-3 times the average wage. And many are very happy.
Do they want to be paid more, probably? Who doesn’t? But the only major carrier in town is no longer the shining light on the hill it once may have been.
WRT paying for an endorsement – I have never paid for an airline endorsement but I have just as much anecdotal evidence and some clear cut personal experience of where carriers that have funded endorsement training have still trodden on conditions of service. Just because an airline type rates you for free does not mean they care about you.
“May I also suggest that a low cost pilot, flying 900hrs a year until 65 to fund retirement, heading for a graveyard a bit quicker than a soundly set up pilot from from a major carrier. Anecdotal evidence suggests that when you pay for an endorsement, management generally treads on you in conditions of service aswell- I doubt if low cost pilots in Oz have life extending, lifestyle positions.”
Your argument is idealistic but not based in reality. Most, if not all people, would choose a higher paid position with other factors being equal if given the chance. But not everyone is in a position to choose. I know of many qualified pilots with Airbus ratings that have not been offered employment by Dragonair, or do not want to relocate overseas and have missed out on the obtuse selection process at Qantas.
But, they are now in the LHS of a Jetstar 320 or VB 737 making 2-3 times the average wage. And many are very happy.
Do they want to be paid more, probably? Who doesn’t? But the only major carrier in town is no longer the shining light on the hill it once may have been.
WRT paying for an endorsement – I have never paid for an airline endorsement but I have just as much anecdotal evidence and some clear cut personal experience of where carriers that have funded endorsement training have still trodden on conditions of service. Just because an airline type rates you for free does not mean they care about you.
Chase my tail with Z-Blood. I thought my points were clear. I will revisit what I see are core issues and patterns with a Branson start up- which despite your dogmatism and contrariness, I believe to be very pertinent to the conditions of sevice for Australian pilots.
Australian pilots are unique. Not just in their self-defeating professional rivalries and petty jealousies ( QF envy a plague on pprune ) but for the following. For every airline position at home there are many, many more occupied abroad by Australians. This is because of a number of the following factors- huge GA, a relatively large military, the 89 dispute which had a large number of pilots move abroad and replaced largely within, Ansett collapse had another large group move abroad, aswell as an unusual situation now where their is attriton abroad from J*, Virgin Blue and QF pilots. Aswell as an artificial feeding of the Singapore market by QF and J* Asia .
So Australian pilots may well be the greatest feeder of the international pilot market. Whenever there has been a critical shortage on the market, since 89, Australians have provided experience. This to the chagrin of other nationalities, who firmly believe without such a large number of Aussies abroad there conditions would be better.
Do Australians affect the international market? Yes by weight of numbers they do aswell as by historically providing high levels of experience during periods of critical pilot shortages.
Do the at home packages of Australians affect Australians abroad and the international pilot market? I believe they do especially when an airline has a large number of expat Oz pilots. Examples- EK and it's professional pilots survey, SQ has very good knowledge and application of Aussie market forces , CX & KA HR staff have been known to interview new hire, former Low Cost Pilots from VB & J* on their Australian packages.
All of this with a view to see how cheap Aussies are at home to test the viability of basings, aswell to see how cheap they can get away with expat packages, and of course, as a pressure in current package/wage negotiations- have the CX, KA, SQ, EK packages improved in recent?
How does the Branson pattern fit in? I believe it is a serious concern because of the VB precedent and "new start up" patterns since. Branson will waltz into town with a core of experienced managers ( EK 89ers for pilots maybe ), stimulate rivalry with the evil QF incumbant that will feed a team spirit within the company that keeps them off the trail of their poor relative working conditions. Promises to staff of improved package once the business is up and running.
Virgin International Australia will not want to pay for experience from the market place to facilitate type inducction and smooth start up, it will want to wet lease initially to do what it can to avoid having to entice the market of large numbers of experienced Australians to crew the new airline. Like VB, a core of experience, but the rest of the pilots inexperienced on type or in whole, who will trundle off to do the cheapest endorsement possible returning without any knowledge or application of their new airline's SOP's in the cheap process. They are now ready for a short burst of line training. There won't be seniority which helps keep costs down too- Direct Entry captains can ensure a pool of inexperienced pilots used for F/O's positions to keep the package way down and ensure rapid expansion without the need to invest in training resources.
The package? Shock, horror, gaspe from the Aussies! Branson has used NJS and J* as a benchmark. Inflation in mind, the new start up pilots ( Capt 130K F/O 80K ) are flying brand new 340's cheaper than not only present day VB pilots, but cheaper then when the VB pilots started years before.Upper Pilot Management will be rewarded better with performance deals to keep the general pilot package in check.
The real danger has materialised. Just like every Australian based start up in the last 10 years, Australians have enthusiastically undercut all previous.
What are the consequences to the biggest feeders of the international pilot market? A flap of a bees wings but possibly the following- QF starts a low cost offshoot but it will warm many ppruners ( foolishly ) to see a deterioration of QF conditions. Junior QF F/O's will be forced to take poorer paying positions but promotion in the low cost offshoot. SQ sacks contract pilots based in Aus' but reinstates as many as they can get their hands on based on the new poor Virgin International packages. EK bases pilots in Oz on similar. Other international carriers follow suit. Cheap Oz pilots work for international airliines based in Oz but find themselves based away from home on their respective airline's network for good periods ( days off down route so they really become expats based in Oz on Low Cost pay ).
What can be done? Who knows? But if Branson undercuts again don't foolishly ignore the ramifications.
AIPA & QF could lobby government and regulatory bodies to ensure no cheap shortcuts and no initial foreign wetleases. VB pilots through EBA's try to get a percentage of international positions- because frankly, VB wages may well be a victory for a new Branson start up! Probably a lot more could be done too.
If conditions are preserved by Australian pilots that is giving to future generations. If they are lost, sold out for short term reward, that is taking.
Remember, there will never be a pilot shortage in Australian. Remember, the advent of the low cost pilot who pays for training has also slewed the market, whereby attrition does not hurt the carrier, and hence pilots leaving, will not result in improved packages due skilled labour loss, to the extent it would at a an airline that provides training. That in my opinion the greatest folly and ignorance of paying for training.
Take from the profession and sell out the future generation, or give to the profession and preserve?
Z-Blood I am open to either! What choice do we have?
Australian pilots are unique. Not just in their self-defeating professional rivalries and petty jealousies ( QF envy a plague on pprune ) but for the following. For every airline position at home there are many, many more occupied abroad by Australians. This is because of a number of the following factors- huge GA, a relatively large military, the 89 dispute which had a large number of pilots move abroad and replaced largely within, Ansett collapse had another large group move abroad, aswell as an unusual situation now where their is attriton abroad from J*, Virgin Blue and QF pilots. Aswell as an artificial feeding of the Singapore market by QF and J* Asia .
So Australian pilots may well be the greatest feeder of the international pilot market. Whenever there has been a critical shortage on the market, since 89, Australians have provided experience. This to the chagrin of other nationalities, who firmly believe without such a large number of Aussies abroad there conditions would be better.
Do Australians affect the international market? Yes by weight of numbers they do aswell as by historically providing high levels of experience during periods of critical pilot shortages.
Do the at home packages of Australians affect Australians abroad and the international pilot market? I believe they do especially when an airline has a large number of expat Oz pilots. Examples- EK and it's professional pilots survey, SQ has very good knowledge and application of Aussie market forces , CX & KA HR staff have been known to interview new hire, former Low Cost Pilots from VB & J* on their Australian packages.
All of this with a view to see how cheap Aussies are at home to test the viability of basings, aswell to see how cheap they can get away with expat packages, and of course, as a pressure in current package/wage negotiations- have the CX, KA, SQ, EK packages improved in recent?
How does the Branson pattern fit in? I believe it is a serious concern because of the VB precedent and "new start up" patterns since. Branson will waltz into town with a core of experienced managers ( EK 89ers for pilots maybe ), stimulate rivalry with the evil QF incumbant that will feed a team spirit within the company that keeps them off the trail of their poor relative working conditions. Promises to staff of improved package once the business is up and running.
Virgin International Australia will not want to pay for experience from the market place to facilitate type inducction and smooth start up, it will want to wet lease initially to do what it can to avoid having to entice the market of large numbers of experienced Australians to crew the new airline. Like VB, a core of experience, but the rest of the pilots inexperienced on type or in whole, who will trundle off to do the cheapest endorsement possible returning without any knowledge or application of their new airline's SOP's in the cheap process. They are now ready for a short burst of line training. There won't be seniority which helps keep costs down too- Direct Entry captains can ensure a pool of inexperienced pilots used for F/O's positions to keep the package way down and ensure rapid expansion without the need to invest in training resources.
The package? Shock, horror, gaspe from the Aussies! Branson has used NJS and J* as a benchmark. Inflation in mind, the new start up pilots ( Capt 130K F/O 80K ) are flying brand new 340's cheaper than not only present day VB pilots, but cheaper then when the VB pilots started years before.Upper Pilot Management will be rewarded better with performance deals to keep the general pilot package in check.
The real danger has materialised. Just like every Australian based start up in the last 10 years, Australians have enthusiastically undercut all previous.
What are the consequences to the biggest feeders of the international pilot market? A flap of a bees wings but possibly the following- QF starts a low cost offshoot but it will warm many ppruners ( foolishly ) to see a deterioration of QF conditions. Junior QF F/O's will be forced to take poorer paying positions but promotion in the low cost offshoot. SQ sacks contract pilots based in Aus' but reinstates as many as they can get their hands on based on the new poor Virgin International packages. EK bases pilots in Oz on similar. Other international carriers follow suit. Cheap Oz pilots work for international airliines based in Oz but find themselves based away from home on their respective airline's network for good periods ( days off down route so they really become expats based in Oz on Low Cost pay ).
What can be done? Who knows? But if Branson undercuts again don't foolishly ignore the ramifications.
AIPA & QF could lobby government and regulatory bodies to ensure no cheap shortcuts and no initial foreign wetleases. VB pilots through EBA's try to get a percentage of international positions- because frankly, VB wages may well be a victory for a new Branson start up! Probably a lot more could be done too.
If conditions are preserved by Australian pilots that is giving to future generations. If they are lost, sold out for short term reward, that is taking.
Remember, there will never be a pilot shortage in Australian. Remember, the advent of the low cost pilot who pays for training has also slewed the market, whereby attrition does not hurt the carrier, and hence pilots leaving, will not result in improved packages due skilled labour loss, to the extent it would at a an airline that provides training. That in my opinion the greatest folly and ignorance of paying for training.
Take from the profession and sell out the future generation, or give to the profession and preserve?
Z-Blood I am open to either! What choice do we have?
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 26th Apr 2005 at 01:18.
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Basically, and unfortunately the entire industry we love is Edward the Kangaroo. Roo-Ted. I am talking from flight deck right down to agent.
The greedy sods have ripped the guts out of it.
There must be somewhere we can go from here to regain some ground, but i am buggered if I can see it.
EWL
The greedy sods have ripped the guts out of it.
There must be somewhere we can go from here to regain some ground, but i am buggered if I can see it.
EWL
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Funny. This is what happened to G.A. a few decades ago. The manipulators, money shufflers, and the white shoe brigade, and the regulators, together with "holier than thou" established airline pilots who thought they were bulletproof, ridiculed, and preyed on desparate, unemployed new pilots and small aeroplane operators. This has done enormous harm to G.A.and now appears to be happening to regional operators.
What you do comes back to you.
"Realists are always despised, particularly in a society of hustlers."
Gore Vidal
What you do comes back to you.
"Realists are always despised, particularly in a society of hustlers."
Gore Vidal
There is more than 120 Aussies flying 340 in EK , also dont forget there is a lot of foreigners with Australian work permits or passports who also fly 340 say another 80-100.
Also ex CX pilots age 55 or thereabouts , SQ used to operate 340s so lots of endorsed guys there.
I would be 100% sure the job ads will require a 340 endorsement as well as time on type.
Could easily crew 10 Aircraft from EK alone including check and trainers.
I wouldnt be going out to pay for a 340 rating in the hope of clinching a job with this 1.
Virgin is already aware of all this........
Also ex CX pilots age 55 or thereabouts , SQ used to operate 340s so lots of endorsed guys there.
I would be 100% sure the job ads will require a 340 endorsement as well as time on type.
Could easily crew 10 Aircraft from EK alone including check and trainers.
I wouldnt be going out to pay for a 340 rating in the hope of clinching a job with this 1.
Virgin is already aware of all this........
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It's not just Australian pilots that are sitting in the wings drooling at the prospect of an international start up.
Plenty of A340 pilots looking for a move with UK, Zim, SAF, Can, NZ or EU passports that either have or can get Australian work visas. It's an international playing field these days, unfortunately low cost carriers mean low cost pilots, not something I support of course but it's a fact all the same.
My recommendation to hopefuls in Australia is to save your pennys for something worthwhile, certainly not an A340 rating when there are countless others qualified and waiting.
Plenty of A340 pilots looking for a move with UK, Zim, SAF, Can, NZ or EU passports that either have or can get Australian work visas. It's an international playing field these days, unfortunately low cost carriers mean low cost pilots, not something I support of course but it's a fact all the same.
My recommendation to hopefuls in Australia is to save your pennys for something worthwhile, certainly not an A340 rating when there are countless others qualified and waiting.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
With all of the speculation, "what if's", "maybe's", and now the final bit of complete and utter bs - "Plenty of A340 pilots looking for a move with UK, Zim, SAF, Can, NZ or EU passports that either have or can get Australian work visas." - being thrown in, this thread is like listening to a couple of old ladies gossiping.
No wonder it's called a Rumour network!
No wonder it's called a Rumour network!
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Gandenburg,
Your doomsday prediction of where the industry may eventually reside is probably not that inaccurate. Change is inevitable.
However, the forces engaged in such sweeping change are very powerful and not dissimilar to the forces re-aligning the domestic industry in the US (or most corners of the globe). Our American counterparts are fairing a lot worse than us.
Your argument, whilst idealistic and partially commendable is futile nonetheless. Much gnashing of teeth by mere pilots will not deter Governments, CEO’s, board members and fund managers from achieving the ultimate aim of the so called developed capitalist nation – namely – de-unionize, increase “labor flexibility”, reduce costs and increase profits.
Labeling fellow professionals as “low cost” may be therapeutic for you but does little more than simplify an extremely complex issue.
It would be more appropriate for you to redirect your apparent anger towards John Howard and the followers of trickle down economics.
Good luck.
Your doomsday prediction of where the industry may eventually reside is probably not that inaccurate. Change is inevitable.
However, the forces engaged in such sweeping change are very powerful and not dissimilar to the forces re-aligning the domestic industry in the US (or most corners of the globe). Our American counterparts are fairing a lot worse than us.
Your argument, whilst idealistic and partially commendable is futile nonetheless. Much gnashing of teeth by mere pilots will not deter Governments, CEO’s, board members and fund managers from achieving the ultimate aim of the so called developed capitalist nation – namely – de-unionize, increase “labor flexibility”, reduce costs and increase profits.
Labeling fellow professionals as “low cost” may be therapeutic for you but does little more than simplify an extremely complex issue.
It would be more appropriate for you to redirect your apparent anger towards John Howard and the followers of trickle down economics.
Good luck.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Gnads,
Sorry mate but the so called exodus from J* is actually the reverse. 1 pilot has left in the last 6 mths to go O/S but some 45 have come from O/S to return to there beloved home land, all at a monetary cost but are rewarded by the joy of living with family and friends in Aus. Does that tell you something.
Oh and by the way CX Cargo is part of the rot of undercutting pilots pay and conditions in an atmosphere of supply and demand.
So by you joining them you are also contributing. and are by no means above it all, remember "people in glass houses"
Sorry mate but the so called exodus from J* is actually the reverse. 1 pilot has left in the last 6 mths to go O/S but some 45 have come from O/S to return to there beloved home land, all at a monetary cost but are rewarded by the joy of living with family and friends in Aus. Does that tell you something.
Oh and by the way CX Cargo is part of the rot of undercutting pilots pay and conditions in an atmosphere of supply and demand.
So by you joining them you are also contributing. and are by no means above it all, remember "people in glass houses"
The Reverend
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
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Tinpis, you have obviously not lived in that "sh!thole" Hong Kong.
I lived and worked there for 33 years and celebrated my 71st birthday last month so according to your surgeon mate, I should be long dead. In fact I was there last Sunday and played 18 holes at The Hong Kong Golf Club with a surgeon 84 years old.
I lived and worked there for 33 years and celebrated my 71st birthday last month so according to your surgeon mate, I should be long dead. In fact I was there last Sunday and played 18 holes at The Hong Kong Golf Club with a surgeon 84 years old.
Tinpis,
With your narrow minded attitude you are far better off where you are.
Oz2
With your narrow minded attitude you are far better off where you are.
Oz2
