Qantaslink
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Hmmm,
well if QLink want Dash-8 Endorsments, it will open up more employment chances for the pilots that do have experience and good training, willing to pay the price to get into an airline. Hard fact of the aviation industry today.
from what i gather from you guys, Once you pass the interviews, checks and apptitudes for QLink, you THEN have to pay THEM to get the endorsement? is this true? or do you already have to have the endorsment beofre you apply?
Also are QANTAS (mainline) the same, because i thought that they payed for endorsments for emplyed pilots themselves.
Does already having an endorsment on an aircraft in thee Q fleet, will it increase your chance of being emplyed?
Daniel
well if QLink want Dash-8 Endorsments, it will open up more employment chances for the pilots that do have experience and good training, willing to pay the price to get into an airline. Hard fact of the aviation industry today.
from what i gather from you guys, Once you pass the interviews, checks and apptitudes for QLink, you THEN have to pay THEM to get the endorsement? is this true? or do you already have to have the endorsment beofre you apply?
Also are QANTAS (mainline) the same, because i thought that they payed for endorsments for emplyed pilots themselves.
Does already having an endorsment on an aircraft in thee Q fleet, will it increase your chance of being emplyed?
Daniel
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This is really sad.
This trend has been perfected by Southwest. Fortuntely Southwest pay considerably more than the likes of J* and VB. 2nd year pay on the boeing at Southwest is basic US$80,000 plus trip and duty rig bringing it to over US$90k (topping out at about US$137,000 for FO) while paying sustantially less tax.
OK....but to tell someone to get the type with such a tiny pay cheque at the end??? Australian airlines are stooping to a new low.
The sad thing is that most people, including myself will go overseas AGAIN and fly either a turboprop or jet on contract and make over AU$100k (most likely tax free) rather than subject ourselves to this ablsolute ass raping by the likes of these smaller (and larger) airlines. Sitting left behind are the lower time pilots that dont have the experience to get contract work over seas and who will GLADLY pay for these Type Ratings.
There will NEVER be a shortage of pilots willing to take this kind of abuse! NEVER!
This trend has been perfected by Southwest. Fortuntely Southwest pay considerably more than the likes of J* and VB. 2nd year pay on the boeing at Southwest is basic US$80,000 plus trip and duty rig bringing it to over US$90k (topping out at about US$137,000 for FO) while paying sustantially less tax.
OK....but to tell someone to get the type with such a tiny pay cheque at the end??? Australian airlines are stooping to a new low.
The sad thing is that most people, including myself will go overseas AGAIN and fly either a turboprop or jet on contract and make over AU$100k (most likely tax free) rather than subject ourselves to this ablsolute ass raping by the likes of these smaller (and larger) airlines. Sitting left behind are the lower time pilots that dont have the experience to get contract work over seas and who will GLADLY pay for these Type Ratings.
There will NEVER be a shortage of pilots willing to take this kind of abuse! NEVER!
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So true Brindabella, just check out the ANA Dash 8 contract in Japan.
The biggest problem is how long before Qantas Mainline starts charging for their endorsements? I'm sure Qantas can use the reason;
3 - Why has QantasLink created such a system? The "pay for your own endorsement" is very much an industry norm. This change will enable QantasLink to continue to contend successfully in a highly competitive market.
And it won't be long before other companies use the same line.
To become an airline pilot (regional or major) is now going to cost you around $60000-$80000. Far cry from a few years back when you got your commercial, then an instrument rating/instructor rating, maybe paid for a PA31 or similar aircraft, spent a few years in GA and then you were rewarded with an airline job. Now it comes down to who has the biggest cheque book.
The monthly repayment on a $16000 loan over 5 years is $397.64.
If the FO's are on $42000 per year, their after tax wage per month is $2478.77.
After taking away the loan payment you get $2081.13.
Say $250 per week for rent(thats really cheap for SYD) you end up with $1081.13.
You still have to pay for groceries, phone, petrol etc etc.
Lets say they cost you another $250 per week (you buy "no name" brands) you are up for another $1000.
So after working hard for a month you end up with a big $81.13 per month to show for it.
The biggest problem is how long before Qantas Mainline starts charging for their endorsements? I'm sure Qantas can use the reason;
3 - Why has QantasLink created such a system? The "pay for your own endorsement" is very much an industry norm. This change will enable QantasLink to continue to contend successfully in a highly competitive market.
And it won't be long before other companies use the same line.
To become an airline pilot (regional or major) is now going to cost you around $60000-$80000. Far cry from a few years back when you got your commercial, then an instrument rating/instructor rating, maybe paid for a PA31 or similar aircraft, spent a few years in GA and then you were rewarded with an airline job. Now it comes down to who has the biggest cheque book.
The monthly repayment on a $16000 loan over 5 years is $397.64.
If the FO's are on $42000 per year, their after tax wage per month is $2478.77.
After taking away the loan payment you get $2081.13.
Say $250 per week for rent(thats really cheap for SYD) you end up with $1081.13.
You still have to pay for groceries, phone, petrol etc etc.
Lets say they cost you another $250 per week (you buy "no name" brands) you are up for another $1000.
So after working hard for a month you end up with a big $81.13 per month to show for it.
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No worries mate,
Quick search of the internet revealed that the Ansett Simulators in Melbourne are capable of doing the Dash 8 endo aswell.
Not sure how that would go down with QF but?!?!
Cheers,
Soulman.
Quick search of the internet revealed that the Ansett Simulators in Melbourne are capable of doing the Dash 8 endo aswell.
Not sure how that would go down with QF but?!?!
Cheers,
Soulman.
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Mainline QF do charge for the endorsement but they call it a bond and you work it off pro-rata over three years. I could only cope with two years so they extracted the remaining bond out of the final payment. I don't know who Qantaslink they are going to get. Sure there are people who will be prepared to pay at the moment but any 18 year old looking at career options is not going to think flying is such a good deal. Just look at the money any decent tradesman can get. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that flying training has decreased sharply at all the major GA centres. The shortage of trade apprentices started in the 90's so apply that to aviation and I think in another 5-10 years a combination of pre-Armstrongs retiring and no feeder system will see the airlines looking for Government assistance to train pilots.
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their after tax wage per month is $2478.77.
i am saddened to read that in the very near future, piloting skill will no longer be a factor in who is actually flying joe puplic around the world...... if only the public knew..... the spirit of Australia hey!
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Roughly ......
$50,000 - $60,000 for CPL with ATPL theory, and then
$2000 - $3000 travel and accom for 1st job (including phone calls)
$3000 - $4000 for twin endorsement, and then
$8000 - $12000 for first turbine endorsement, and then
$2500 - $3000 IFR renewals and publications over 2-3 years
$1500 - $2500 travel to attend interviews/accom, and then
$460 to go through the process, and then, if successful
$20,000 for your rating
Total: under $100,000
Flying for EAA: Priceless!!
And it aint getting any cheaper.
For e.g. $200 dollars for a pilots licence is in your face hardcore penetration
Even the peanuts dont taste good anymore.
Shazzamed
$2000 - $3000 travel and accom for 1st job (including phone calls)
$3000 - $4000 for twin endorsement, and then
$8000 - $12000 for first turbine endorsement, and then
$2500 - $3000 IFR renewals and publications over 2-3 years
$1500 - $2500 travel to attend interviews/accom, and then
$460 to go through the process, and then, if successful
$20,000 for your rating
Total: under $100,000
Flying for EAA: Priceless!!
And it aint getting any cheaper.
For e.g. $200 dollars for a pilots licence is in your face hardcore penetration
Even the peanuts dont taste good anymore.
Shazzamed
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This is a very sad day for the Australian Aviation Industry.
Jobs are now not awarded on merit and trust - but on how much money you are willing to go without in your LIFE!
It would be nice to think that an airline chose you based on your qualifications, experience and personality.
Qantaslink are close to the top of the food chain when it comes to pilot careers as far as I'm concerned, for others it is the top! As said in this thread it is the continual out-lay of money until one reaches such a position and the future of these pilots which is a grave concern. Today the cost of pilot training can be as much as $50,000. working in GA - doesn't give you much of a chance to make a dint it that loan. Endorsements on to something bigger C310, PA31 etc more than $1000, and to name a few other expenses - renewals, computers, documents and relocation costs.
As pilots concerned about this trend more is needed to be expressed to management involved.
The only way this is going to change is through the current pilots flying and the potential pilots wishing to fly for Qantaslink.
For those flying on the Dash 8's. What are you're thoughts on the subject? would you be in the same (flying) position if impossed a training fee? What are your thoughts on flying with a pilot who has been awarded the position based on his/her wallet capacity?
Jobs are now not awarded on merit and trust - but on how much money you are willing to go without in your LIFE!
It would be nice to think that an airline chose you based on your qualifications, experience and personality.
Qantaslink are close to the top of the food chain when it comes to pilot careers as far as I'm concerned, for others it is the top! As said in this thread it is the continual out-lay of money until one reaches such a position and the future of these pilots which is a grave concern. Today the cost of pilot training can be as much as $50,000. working in GA - doesn't give you much of a chance to make a dint it that loan. Endorsements on to something bigger C310, PA31 etc more than $1000, and to name a few other expenses - renewals, computers, documents and relocation costs.
As pilots concerned about this trend more is needed to be expressed to management involved.
The only way this is going to change is through the current pilots flying and the potential pilots wishing to fly for Qantaslink.
For those flying on the Dash 8's. What are you're thoughts on the subject? would you be in the same (flying) position if impossed a training fee? What are your thoughts on flying with a pilot who has been awarded the position based on his/her wallet capacity?
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Standard Industry Practice...
A real MBA term, if ever I heard one. Just chant the mantra S.I.P. and you will automatically get one mark. A bit like my Applied Maths teacher say that if you cant arrive at an answer, just draw an x-y axis and you will get 1 %... S.I.P..../
Hey, you management type dic kheads who dont fly, let me tell you about a very little known "standard industry practice":
You see, flying is one of those arcane professions and. as such, develops certain unique customs and practices that are peculiar only to the initiated. If fact, many socio-pyschologists recognise these behaviours as typical of an elite group fuctioning at the highest levels of human achievement. One of these practices is to 'insult' each other. This is a characteristic of the true aviation professional. When ever us Pilots see another professional who has performed at his or her best, we insult them. This is a 'standard industry practice'.
For example. A few weeks ago Kapt M and I saw each other at briefing in NRT. He looked at me and called me a see-you-en-tee. I called him a bee-you-em-spells-bum. We then both nodded and smiled at each other, that special arcane smile that is almost sceret as a mark of mutual respect between aviation professionals. You non-flying types are privilidged that I share this hidden aspect of our culture with you.
Another secret mark of respect is to spit into the face of another pilot, one whom is held in high regard. Consider this: to place your saliva on another mans face is an act of the deepest emotional and spirtual respect. This is an act that we pilots do when we meet someone whom we hold in the highest professional standing.
Another 'standard industry practice' is the 'kick in the balls'. You management , bean counter types may or may not have heard of this one. For example, of I did a real nice landing and this was witnessed by another crew, then they would say somthing like "hey, nice landing" and then kick me in the balls. A mark of sincere professional respect.
This is why, in the future, I can see a manager, highly regarded as an outstanding professional walking the corridors of power when a Pilot walks up to him and says "Hey, Geoff, you fcukwit" and then spits in his face and kicks him in the balls; an indication of true respect and sincere admiration.
Another is the "pliers, hangar and shoeing" : In this one, a group of Pilots take a member of those who have made the absolute top ranks of their profession and drag them behind a hangar by the nose by a pair of pliers and them proceed to boot their brains in with Blundstones. Hopi indian medicine men have long related the infliction of pain with spiritual develpoement and this is why we treat those we hold in full respect to this rather special form of personal advancement. So Margeret, Don and Mark, dont be surprised if some Pilots offer you this unique opportunity to participate in this previously hiden form of "standard Industry Practice", just out of respect, of course.
Man, we admire you guys. we think you are all a pack of cnuts.
With respect,
Ralph.
.
A real MBA term, if ever I heard one. Just chant the mantra S.I.P. and you will automatically get one mark. A bit like my Applied Maths teacher say that if you cant arrive at an answer, just draw an x-y axis and you will get 1 %... S.I.P..../
Hey, you management type dic kheads who dont fly, let me tell you about a very little known "standard industry practice":
You see, flying is one of those arcane professions and. as such, develops certain unique customs and practices that are peculiar only to the initiated. If fact, many socio-pyschologists recognise these behaviours as typical of an elite group fuctioning at the highest levels of human achievement. One of these practices is to 'insult' each other. This is a characteristic of the true aviation professional. When ever us Pilots see another professional who has performed at his or her best, we insult them. This is a 'standard industry practice'.
For example. A few weeks ago Kapt M and I saw each other at briefing in NRT. He looked at me and called me a see-you-en-tee. I called him a bee-you-em-spells-bum. We then both nodded and smiled at each other, that special arcane smile that is almost sceret as a mark of mutual respect between aviation professionals. You non-flying types are privilidged that I share this hidden aspect of our culture with you.
Another secret mark of respect is to spit into the face of another pilot, one whom is held in high regard. Consider this: to place your saliva on another mans face is an act of the deepest emotional and spirtual respect. This is an act that we pilots do when we meet someone whom we hold in the highest professional standing.
Another 'standard industry practice' is the 'kick in the balls'. You management , bean counter types may or may not have heard of this one. For example, of I did a real nice landing and this was witnessed by another crew, then they would say somthing like "hey, nice landing" and then kick me in the balls. A mark of sincere professional respect.
This is why, in the future, I can see a manager, highly regarded as an outstanding professional walking the corridors of power when a Pilot walks up to him and says "Hey, Geoff, you fcukwit" and then spits in his face and kicks him in the balls; an indication of true respect and sincere admiration.
Another is the "pliers, hangar and shoeing" : In this one, a group of Pilots take a member of those who have made the absolute top ranks of their profession and drag them behind a hangar by the nose by a pair of pliers and them proceed to boot their brains in with Blundstones. Hopi indian medicine men have long related the infliction of pain with spiritual develpoement and this is why we treat those we hold in full respect to this rather special form of personal advancement. So Margeret, Don and Mark, dont be surprised if some Pilots offer you this unique opportunity to participate in this previously hiden form of "standard Industry Practice", just out of respect, of course.
Man, we admire you guys. we think you are all a pack of cnuts.
With respect,
Ralph.
.
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 31st Mar 2005 at 12:17.
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Goes to show that its not just in 1989 that there were SCABS.....As if anyone is dumb enough to take up a job with Eastern/Sunstate then they are definitely worth running over on a zebra crossing!!!!!
So why can't the AFAP do something about this????
This is just absolutely pathetic.....
I am going to keep aplying to them so when they ask me for an interview I will quite happily tell them "To go practise safe sex!!"
So if Eastern are struggling to keep pilots now...what do they think this will do for them?????.....Bloody dumb arses!!!!!
So why can't the AFAP do something about this????
This is just absolutely pathetic.....
I am going to keep aplying to them so when they ask me for an interview I will quite happily tell them "To go practise safe sex!!"
So if Eastern are struggling to keep pilots now...what do they think this will do for them?????.....Bloody dumb arses!!!!!
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If/ When paying for endorsments becomes Standard Industry paractice, or better still Worlds BEST Practice, me foresees a severe shortage of flight crew me thinks!
who in their right mind would train for a career in which you will never recieve any real income?
Just imagine! a plumber, paying YOU astronomical amounts of $$ to do your plumbing for you!
Airlines and aviation must be the ONLY indusrty on the Planet where the resources needed to conduct your business actually PAY you!
first, the emergence of the LLC, the Death of the Concord era. and now employees PAYING thier bosses to work for them........ aviation is definatly progressing in the right direction..
who in their right mind would train for a career in which you will never recieve any real income?
Just imagine! a plumber, paying YOU astronomical amounts of $$ to do your plumbing for you!
Airlines and aviation must be the ONLY indusrty on the Planet where the resources needed to conduct your business actually PAY you!
first, the emergence of the LLC, the Death of the Concord era. and now employees PAYING thier bosses to work for them........ aviation is definatly progressing in the right direction..
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Where do I sign up ????????? I mean, how long do I have to wait to pay 20K ( round figures ) to work a six sector, six day roster,get management who have no regard for the EBA, oh, but did I forget,,,,,,,it's a Dash 8 boys.
It was without question, great training, great fun, great to move on, but for 20K? It's time to make a stand. Sunstate and Eastern are screaming for pilots. So much so, that if you fail the sim ride but pass the interview, you get to do it again.
Withdraw the application from staff cv, they can't get drivers now, and it's going to get worse. This isn't a jet, it's a big PA31.
It was without question, great training, great fun, great to move on, but for 20K? It's time to make a stand. Sunstate and Eastern are screaming for pilots. So much so, that if you fail the sim ride but pass the interview, you get to do it again.
Withdraw the application from staff cv, they can't get drivers now, and it's going to get worse. This isn't a jet, it's a big PA31.
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If the mining industry tried to pull this **** on its workers the whole friggin country would shut down.
How is it that we have the most limp wristed, purse carrying, nancy boy union in the whole damn country.
I spoke to an AFAP nancy about this when it first started and the response was that unless the majority of card carrying union members lodged a formal complaint then the AFAP felt it had no authority to act. In other words if the captains who are already in there don't give a f#%k then the union couldn't give a F#%K either.
And who are these brilliant managers who think that they can solve their pilot retention problems by treating employees like ****. Do you have to do a degree to learn that or is it that any F#%kWIT can be in airline management.
Don't take it, if EVERYONE picked up the phone and abused the AFAP / government / current affairs programs then someone will have to eventually turn up the heat on these companies.
Sir Kingsford Smith would be turning in his grave.
How is it that we have the most limp wristed, purse carrying, nancy boy union in the whole damn country.
I spoke to an AFAP nancy about this when it first started and the response was that unless the majority of card carrying union members lodged a formal complaint then the AFAP felt it had no authority to act. In other words if the captains who are already in there don't give a f#%k then the union couldn't give a F#%K either.
And who are these brilliant managers who think that they can solve their pilot retention problems by treating employees like ****. Do you have to do a degree to learn that or is it that any F#%kWIT can be in airline management.
Don't take it, if EVERYONE picked up the phone and abused the AFAP / government / current affairs programs then someone will have to eventually turn up the heat on these companies.
Sir Kingsford Smith would be turning in his grave.
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What a joke !!
Why don't they implement a pro rata bond, which is a much fairer system for all concerned.
Why aren't they requiring Call centre staff, Flight attendents etc. to pay for their training? That's right !! it's way to easy to screw pilots !!
No wonder so many pilots walk around the terminals with their heads down, its embarassing when you realise that 90% of your pax are earning more than you and didn't have to PAY for their jobs.
People I meet at functions, parties etc actually laugh when I tell them what pilots earn and how much VB and JS pilots pay for their training.
This is so sad.
Why don't they implement a pro rata bond, which is a much fairer system for all concerned.
Why aren't they requiring Call centre staff, Flight attendents etc. to pay for their training? That's right !! it's way to easy to screw pilots !!
No wonder so many pilots walk around the terminals with their heads down, its embarassing when you realise that 90% of your pax are earning more than you and didn't have to PAY for their jobs.
People I meet at functions, parties etc actually laugh when I tell them what pilots earn and how much VB and JS pilots pay for their training.
This is so sad.
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Another thing Qantaslink could have done was change their hiring practices and do what most regionals (and them) did in the past and hire pilots who are in the late 20 early 30’s who are less likely or do not want to fly for a major airline. Many of these pilots would already be married, maybe have a kid(s) and are looking at job security and lifestyle. They want to be home most nights rather than be spending most of their nights in a motel room on the other side of the country.
I would guess the average age of the pilots joining Qantaslink would be 22-24 so these pilots are only looking at Qantaslink as a short term career. Like everyone at that age, they want to have fun and make lots of money. So they go to Qantaslink spend 6 months to 2 years there and jump ship as soon as they can and go and fly a jet paying them more money.
I would guess the average age of the pilots joining Qantaslink would be 22-24 so these pilots are only looking at Qantaslink as a short term career. Like everyone at that age, they want to have fun and make lots of money. So they go to Qantaslink spend 6 months to 2 years there and jump ship as soon as they can and go and fly a jet paying them more money.
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What an utter disgrace! Enough of you have already broken down the $$$ and come the conclusion that is a profession best to avoid. How sad!
Imagine trying to live in SYD on 40K pa whilst paying off a rating and gods know how much on flying training? Oh and this is all after working in GA for food.
Who in the right mind would send the kid to be pilot now? Send them to uni so that they can become a management ass-wipe instead. At least they wont be broke!!!
Imagine trying to live in SYD on 40K pa whilst paying off a rating and gods know how much on flying training? Oh and this is all after working in GA for food.
Who in the right mind would send the kid to be pilot now? Send them to uni so that they can become a management ass-wipe instead. At least they wont be broke!!!
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From the people I know at Eastern/Sunstate, now known as Qantaslink (see new uniform…) they are all disgusted with the pay for endorsement and also think Qantaslink will find it even harder to find acceptable crews. A lot of pilots at Qantaslink think the company would be better off making it a better place to work and therefore retain staff but alas it’s the upper echelons of Qantas that control what is going on… As far as the AFAP goes most pilots are shifting to AIPA and as soon as a few items are sorted you will see a lot of resignations from the AFAP.
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Blaaaaah!!
As far as the AFAP goes most pilots are shifting to AIPA and as soon as a few items are sorted you will see a lot of resignations from the AFAP.
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Well the rot started in Australia with Virgin Blue entering the scene and requiring pay up front endorsements. Perhaps it was just a matter of time though before this came to Australia and would have regardless given it seems quite common or even the norm overseas.
What is this going to do to the industry? In years to come those of us already working could be reaping big rewards as less people opt for a career in aviation. A looming skills shortage is real (article on this in today’s Australian) yet managers looking for short term gains don't care about the picture 5 or 10 years down the track.
Already young people are not looking at careers in aviation with other better paid and rewarding jobs requiring minimal or substantially less financial outlay to achieve than that of pilots.
Ten years from now companies like Eastern and probably even the other large regionals (rumours perhaps that REX may soon be charging up front too...
) may find themselves hiring those straight out of flying school willing to dish out another 18 grand to secure their first job bypassing a withering dried up or even dead in the water General Aviation industry.
The real truth about aviation as a career needs to be communicated to those looking at a start. Large initial costs for just bare basic minimum qualifications followed by years of work on the bones of your ass in old outdated and dangerous equipment followed by even more large financial outlays required to gain half respectable employment that doesn't end up paying all that flash to work your arse off.
Maybe the whole idea is to have a shelf life for pilots. Get them while they are young and stupid with stars in their eyes about the glamour of the job, squeeze them dry of all their funds to get qualified, work their rings off then discard them for more young wannabes 10 years down the track.
I hope that the one victim of this criminal practice is not the excellent safety record we have here in Australia for airline operations.
And for all those with the defence of well its been done overseas for so long, by backing this you immediately highlight yourselves as naive, inexperienced new entrants still stroking over the thought of breaking the bonds of earth. Perhaps not your fault, we've all been at that stage once but please try and have some forward thinking and realise that at the end of the day we are doing a job, like anyone else we should be suitably reimbursed.
What is this going to do to the industry? In years to come those of us already working could be reaping big rewards as less people opt for a career in aviation. A looming skills shortage is real (article on this in today’s Australian) yet managers looking for short term gains don't care about the picture 5 or 10 years down the track.
Already young people are not looking at careers in aviation with other better paid and rewarding jobs requiring minimal or substantially less financial outlay to achieve than that of pilots.
Ten years from now companies like Eastern and probably even the other large regionals (rumours perhaps that REX may soon be charging up front too...
) may find themselves hiring those straight out of flying school willing to dish out another 18 grand to secure their first job bypassing a withering dried up or even dead in the water General Aviation industry.The real truth about aviation as a career needs to be communicated to those looking at a start. Large initial costs for just bare basic minimum qualifications followed by years of work on the bones of your ass in old outdated and dangerous equipment followed by even more large financial outlays required to gain half respectable employment that doesn't end up paying all that flash to work your arse off.
Maybe the whole idea is to have a shelf life for pilots. Get them while they are young and stupid with stars in their eyes about the glamour of the job, squeeze them dry of all their funds to get qualified, work their rings off then discard them for more young wannabes 10 years down the track.
I hope that the one victim of this criminal practice is not the excellent safety record we have here in Australia for airline operations.
And for all those with the defence of well its been done overseas for so long, by backing this you immediately highlight yourselves as naive, inexperienced new entrants still stroking over the thought of breaking the bonds of earth. Perhaps not your fault, we've all been at that stage once but please try and have some forward thinking and realise that at the end of the day we are doing a job, like anyone else we should be suitably reimbursed.