Jetstar Sign New EBA ?
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Gnonadberg,
You have been up ti your ol' tricks in front of the mirror again. Firstly you did not listen to your Mummy's advice about going blind on overnights, but then again most of your F/A's are old enough to be your Mum- and that just would not seem right, would it now?
What a quandary for an aviation legend for one such as your good self...
You have been up ti your ol' tricks in front of the mirror again. Firstly you did not listen to your Mummy's advice about going blind on overnights, but then again most of your F/A's are old enough to be your Mum- and that just would not seem right, would it now?
What a quandary for an aviation legend for one such as your good self...
Bottums Up
What a wonderful and constructive post alidad. Rather than debate the issue, call some one an oedipal w@nker.
In my view, this is a classic example of why Australian pilots conditions will continue to fall in my life time. No one is allowed a contrary view, without being slagged!
In my view, this is a classic example of why Australian pilots conditions will continue to fall in my life time. No one is allowed a contrary view, without being slagged!
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Apologies to Capt Claret if you find that offensive. However it is aimed squarely at an arrogant QF lad who needs to be put in place.
I acknowledge that it may be factually inaccurate as the current QF EBA does not pay pilots an entertainment allowance for such activities. It is therefore highly improbable that he would engage in a strenuous task without just reward for his effort.
I acknowledge that it may be factually inaccurate as the current QF EBA does not pay pilots an entertainment allowance for such activities. It is therefore highly improbable that he would engage in a strenuous task without just reward for his effort.
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Hey Alidag what makes you think that Gnadenburg is so deperate that he needs to work for QF.
Gnadenburg has hit the nail on the head, its not a sign of arrogance, just someone unlike yourselves may i suggest that is/was so desperate for a "job".
Gnadenburg has hit the nail on the head, its not a sign of arrogance, just someone unlike yourselves may i suggest that is/was so desperate for a "job".
Last edited by Iakklat; 19th Mar 2005 at 07:43.
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How can you farkin call someone who has to make the move home to Oz due to personal reasons and then accepts a job, albeit with Jetstar a monkey? For fark sake, the sh!tward trend in wages started long before farking Jetstar by the way!
Bottums Up
alidad
Not offended as such, just disappointed.
It seems to me that calls for unity amongst pilots are almost universal. But very few seem to practise it. If some one's of the opposite veiw, there's little attempt to sway their point of view by arguing the point.
BUT I doubt calling any one names will do anything but entrench their belief or position.
Not offended as such, just disappointed.
It seems to me that calls for unity amongst pilots are almost universal. But very few seem to practise it. If some one's of the opposite veiw, there's little attempt to sway their point of view by arguing the point.
BUT I doubt calling any one names will do anything but entrench their belief or position.
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Thanks Clarrie,
Children children children, play nicely and stay on thread please, no gouging or sharp sticks lest someone gets hurt.
Your enemy is outside the gates not in.
Go dust off Ernie Ganns "Band of Brothers" and have a quiet read with a good bottle of wine.
Children children children, play nicely and stay on thread please, no gouging or sharp sticks lest someone gets hurt.
Your enemy is outside the gates not in.
Go dust off Ernie Ganns "Band of Brothers" and have a quiet read with a good bottle of wine.
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Fair Dinkum,
What chance has a pilot got in this country when you are being continually undermined by;
'You don't know my circumstances'
'Being forced to pay for endorsements'
and working for nothing to build up hours.
c'mon, have a bit of professional pride fellas (and birds)
What chance has a pilot got in this country when you are being continually undermined by;
'You don't know my circumstances'
'Being forced to pay for endorsements'
and working for nothing to build up hours.
c'mon, have a bit of professional pride fellas (and birds)
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Great news - 9% over 3 years.
That means in the year 2023 the flight crew will be earning what they were in the year 2000.
What will real estate be worth then ?.
Great pay deal - keep up the good work
That means in the year 2023 the flight crew will be earning what they were in the year 2000.
What will real estate be worth then ?.
Great pay deal - keep up the good work
Woomera
To suggest the enemy is outside the gate, a cop out to those who continue to toil for the preservation of piloting conditions
and mittigating the compromise of Low Cost Australian pilots.
There is real sentiment emerging out there ( amongst flagship carriers etc ) to sell out the next generation of pilots. If I can get a payrise but the pilots joining my outfit allocated a B scale. Why not? Especially if they are Low Cost Pilots.
Virgin Blue pilots have been vigorous, but not too successful, in furthering their opportunities elsewhere. This has not gone unnoticed by aviation managements and used as a weapon against improved conditons in many pilot markets.
On the other side of the coin, are pilots working abroad now not justified coming home and undercutting VB pilots through employment with J*? The core of experienced original VB pilots, former 89ers, probably felt similarily justified to come home and undercut 1) strikebreakers and 2) unsupporting QF Longhaul pilots.
Perhaps herin lies the problem. A multiple paradox. Countered only by pilots striving within their own organisations trying to to improve and better conditions. So nick off VB pilots trying to go elsewhere!
Alidad
You have ably demonstrated your limited powers of comprehension- a prerequisite to be a QF pilot. I don't know where your bitterness toward QF pilots has come from, or why, but you have manifested it in two foolish responses.
A blessing for you, the flourishing of buy a job and Low Cost Piloting!
REM
Good luck in J*and welcome home. They are fortunate to obtain your experience and I hope yourself and others can up the conditions somewhat.
To suggest the enemy is outside the gate, a cop out to those who continue to toil for the preservation of piloting conditions
and mittigating the compromise of Low Cost Australian pilots.
There is real sentiment emerging out there ( amongst flagship carriers etc ) to sell out the next generation of pilots. If I can get a payrise but the pilots joining my outfit allocated a B scale. Why not? Especially if they are Low Cost Pilots.
Virgin Blue pilots have been vigorous, but not too successful, in furthering their opportunities elsewhere. This has not gone unnoticed by aviation managements and used as a weapon against improved conditons in many pilot markets.
On the other side of the coin, are pilots working abroad now not justified coming home and undercutting VB pilots through employment with J*? The core of experienced original VB pilots, former 89ers, probably felt similarily justified to come home and undercut 1) strikebreakers and 2) unsupporting QF Longhaul pilots.
Perhaps herin lies the problem. A multiple paradox. Countered only by pilots striving within their own organisations trying to to improve and better conditions. So nick off VB pilots trying to go elsewhere!
Alidad
You have ably demonstrated your limited powers of comprehension- a prerequisite to be a QF pilot. I don't know where your bitterness toward QF pilots has come from, or why, but you have manifested it in two foolish responses.
A blessing for you, the flourishing of buy a job and Low Cost Piloting!
REM
Good luck in J*and welcome home. They are fortunate to obtain your experience and I hope yourself and others can up the conditions somewhat.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 22nd Mar 2005 at 00:25.
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Gnadenburg
I do not intend to engage you in a p!ssing contest.
Blind Freddy can see that the real enemy is not your fellow pilots but the new economic conditions and management who may wish to exploit them and your differences.
indeed 
.
One needs only to study the history of United Airlines to their current situation to see the several denouements possible, none of them are attractive to the pilots and all of which are a serious economic and competitive worry to Qantas et al.
Perhaps we are in a different and deregulated economic universe to the one that existed in '89, the evidence suggests that it is so? The economic protection of the 2 airline agreement was still on foot, it is not now.
Is it still possible, as it was. for competing airlines pilots to march in lock step on wages and conditions?
I have my own views on it but they aren't relevant here.
My only motivation in the post was to encourage you all to quit personalising the posts and get on with discussion of the issues and merits.
Aggression only works when you can follow through physically, as you are unable to do so here, you have to rely on the power of your argument.
So lets get on with it shall we.
I do not intend to engage you in a p!ssing contest.
Blind Freddy can see that the real enemy is not your fellow pilots but the new economic conditions and management who may wish to exploit them and your differences.
A multiple paradox.
.One needs only to study the history of United Airlines to their current situation to see the several denouements possible, none of them are attractive to the pilots and all of which are a serious economic and competitive worry to Qantas et al.
Perhaps we are in a different and deregulated economic universe to the one that existed in '89, the evidence suggests that it is so? The economic protection of the 2 airline agreement was still on foot, it is not now.
Is it still possible, as it was. for competing airlines pilots to march in lock step on wages and conditions?
I have my own views on it but they aren't relevant here.
My only motivation in the post was to encourage you all to quit personalising the posts and get on with discussion of the issues and merits.
Aggression only works when you can follow through physically, as you are unable to do so here, you have to rely on the power of your argument.
So lets get on with it shall we.
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Thing to focus on is that there are way, way more flying jobs around now than would have ever been the case had we continued with the Two Airline Policy. Few could see then the amazing growth that low fares and innovation would bring.
There are now so many more career paths than existed then and so many more entry level positions. And if some of those aren't quite A-level pay and conditions so what?
Almost all any "wannabee" pilots wants is an opportunity and more jobs fits that bill. Be they Jetstar or VB or anyone else....the first airline job, that first jet rating and the first 500 hours are the key to the future.
There are now so many more career paths than existed then and so many more entry level positions. And if some of those aren't quite A-level pay and conditions so what?
Almost all any "wannabee" pilots wants is an opportunity and more jobs fits that bill. Be they Jetstar or VB or anyone else....the first airline job, that first jet rating and the first 500 hours are the key to the future.
Woomera
Wasn't a pi$$ing contest but more of a discussion.
I would suggest pilots are the enemy. The capitulation of conditions in Australia generally the result of one group of pilots undercutting another.
Sure, as you have suggested, management can use the bitterness and professional envy of pilots ( look no further than Alidad and Ty Webb's QF jealousy ) as a catalyst to add further decay to conditions of service.
Virgin Blue management have proved to be masters of these antics where employees are too naive and caught up in negative sentiments toward their rival airlines, to realise they are being exploited in terms of relative conditions. Anecdotal evidence suggests J* pushes this a little bit too.
Ty Webb
That contribution, on an anonymous forum, a very real insight into your own perversions.
You can do better than that. You have slithered back down the aviation slippery pole. You have something to add surely?
Electra
Bringing an airline career to within easy reach of anyone who will pay for a jet endorsement has already eroded conditions and deskilled the industry. Soon that first 500 hours of airline experience will have a price- so our wannabe can have the experience to go and get a suitably renumerating position abroad. What you have described is a GA mentality.
Attrition ( skills ) and experience ( market scarcity ) are factors that preserve the profession.
Wasn't a pi$$ing contest but more of a discussion.
I would suggest pilots are the enemy. The capitulation of conditions in Australia generally the result of one group of pilots undercutting another.
Sure, as you have suggested, management can use the bitterness and professional envy of pilots ( look no further than Alidad and Ty Webb's QF jealousy ) as a catalyst to add further decay to conditions of service.
Virgin Blue management have proved to be masters of these antics where employees are too naive and caught up in negative sentiments toward their rival airlines, to realise they are being exploited in terms of relative conditions. Anecdotal evidence suggests J* pushes this a little bit too.
Ty Webb
That contribution, on an anonymous forum, a very real insight into your own perversions.
You can do better than that. You have slithered back down the aviation slippery pole. You have something to add surely?
Electra
Bringing an airline career to within easy reach of anyone who will pay for a jet endorsement has already eroded conditions and deskilled the industry. Soon that first 500 hours of airline experience will have a price- so our wannabe can have the experience to go and get a suitably renumerating position abroad. What you have described is a GA mentality.
Attrition ( skills ) and experience ( market scarcity ) are factors that preserve the profession.
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" VB wages plus 9% "
" so jet* captains on 160k+ as basic "
funny, as at 1/7/04, VB captains on 129,998 basic, when I add 9% to this I don't get 160+..............should have paid more attention in maths class I spose.
" so jet* captains on 160k+ as basic "
funny, as at 1/7/04, VB captains on 129,998 basic, when I add 9% to this I don't get 160+..............should have paid more attention in maths class I spose.
Sprucegoose
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Gnadenburg,
Whilst I agree 100% with your first point, how does paying for an endorsement make you any less skilled? There are people at ALL COMPANIES that despite their keeness to fly, probably should have chosen other careers, yet still they persist and manage to pass their checks!!
Are cadet's who have paid for the privilege any less skilled?
I think not!! In fact probably some of the brightest young pilots I have met have taken this route.
If you mean people are less experienced, then yes that would be true, however don't confuse experience with skill, cause I can assure you that there are many experienced Captains out there with little or no skill left!! It is their experience that gets them by!! Whilst they espouse great virtues of airmanship, some would'nt know what day it was without the rest of the crews help.
Let me ask you this question.
Why are fighter jocks, generally cocky SOB's in their early twenties?
Because this is when you are at your peak!!
Why are military instructors generally in their early thirties?
Because they are close enough to their peak to remember how it was and experienced enough to be able to impart some knowledge!!
Welcome to the new millenium. Anyway at least he/she wont be trying to take yours.
Could you please elaborate? What exactly is a GA mentality?
Cheers, HH.
Bringing an airline career to within easy reach of anyone who will pay for a jet endorsement has already eroded conditions and deskilled the industry
Are cadet's who have paid for the privilege any less skilled?
I think not!! In fact probably some of the brightest young pilots I have met have taken this route.
If you mean people are less experienced, then yes that would be true, however don't confuse experience with skill, cause I can assure you that there are many experienced Captains out there with little or no skill left!! It is their experience that gets them by!! Whilst they espouse great virtues of airmanship, some would'nt know what day it was without the rest of the crews help.
Let me ask you this question.
Why are fighter jocks, generally cocky SOB's in their early twenties?
Because this is when you are at your peak!!
Why are military instructors generally in their early thirties?
Because they are close enough to their peak to remember how it was and experienced enough to be able to impart some knowledge!!
Soon that first 500 hours of airline experience will have a price- so our wannabe can have the experience to go and get a suitably reMUNerating position abroad
What you have described is a GA mentality
Cheers, HH.