So What Happens Next Time??????????
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So What Happens Next Time??????????
I have just plowed through the 11 pages of the NJS/Jetstar thread. It is the usual intra-group slanging match with only a little bit headed where it should be - at continual management practices where one group is played off against another.
So what happens next time?????
Why don't we try being proactive for once and start collectively thinking ahead?
To me, the next most likely scenario is that GOD and his cohorts will decide to start up an international LCC - he has already hinted at this in the media. After all "LCC are the best thing that has happened in the last 30 years in aviation" - a quote from GOD. So who are they good for? Punters get cheaper tickets, management jobs multiply, profits (and management bonuses) get bigger, BUT WORKERS GET SCREWED!
So, boys and girls, how about we start thinking ahead? What will happen next time? Let's think through the scenarios!
Somebody might get the QF Classics and older 400s. Somebody might (will?) get B777s/A340s. Somebody will get the A380s. Somebody might get the 767s? But who will it be?
So far we have seen similar/smaller types being transferred to similar/smaller operators for a competition for the lowest pay rate. In all of the situations above, we are talking about bigger types, probably going to a bigger operator. COMPETITION FOR LOWER RATES SHOULD NOT APPLY!!!! NOBODY should undercut anybody else to fly these machines! The worst we are talking is expansion and payrises - not job losses or down-scaling. NOBODY should be worse off.
So we should be talking baselines rates here and a committment from all groups that some centralised negotiation should take place. If Jetstar is offered 777s/A340s, then they MUST advise QF mainline and AO! If AO is offered 400s/A380s they MUST advise QF mainline. If mainline is to get 777s/A340s, A380s, 787s, they MUST keep AO and Jetstar in the loop regarding future job propsects, rates of pay etc.
The days of backdoor, backstabbing negotiations MUST STOP if we are to keep reasonable conditions in Australia. Negotiations must be consultative and open - THERE MUST BE NO MORE SWEETHEART DEALS done by negotiators! The only way that we will keep WHAT WE HAVE NOW is to start trusting each other.
Please note that I have not attacked anyone for undercutting QF mainline. If I was faced with retrenchment it would also make me prepared to look at whatever it took to keep my family going. I understand the pressure tthat Impulse and NJS pilots were subjected to. What we are talking about here is career enhancement and this opportunity MUST NOT be wasted. WE AS A PROFESSION HAVE GIVEN ENOUGH!
As KEG has said on the NJS/Jetstar thread, the best (only) way to do this is to have one pilot union representing all jet operators in this country, so that we are not continually backdooring each other. It is time to trust each other instead of insulting each other. It is time for ALL Jetstar pilots and NJS pilots and VB pilots to join one association. Get on the phone to AIPA and start talking. Whatever you think about AIPA, it is currently the biggest organisation of pilots in Australia. It has welcomed Jetstar members. If you don't like its direction (and currently a lot of peole don't) then get on the inside and change it.
There are some BIG opportunities coming up - WE MUST BE IN A POSITION TO CAPITALISE ON IT.
Can it happen? I don't know. All I know is that with the possiblities of an expanded AO, A380s and bulk 777s/A340s ahead, if we don't get ahead of the game and start thinking about ourselves collectively, then WE ARE STUFFED!
Over to you.
So what happens next time?????
Why don't we try being proactive for once and start collectively thinking ahead?
To me, the next most likely scenario is that GOD and his cohorts will decide to start up an international LCC - he has already hinted at this in the media. After all "LCC are the best thing that has happened in the last 30 years in aviation" - a quote from GOD. So who are they good for? Punters get cheaper tickets, management jobs multiply, profits (and management bonuses) get bigger, BUT WORKERS GET SCREWED!
So, boys and girls, how about we start thinking ahead? What will happen next time? Let's think through the scenarios!
Somebody might get the QF Classics and older 400s. Somebody might (will?) get B777s/A340s. Somebody will get the A380s. Somebody might get the 767s? But who will it be?
So far we have seen similar/smaller types being transferred to similar/smaller operators for a competition for the lowest pay rate. In all of the situations above, we are talking about bigger types, probably going to a bigger operator. COMPETITION FOR LOWER RATES SHOULD NOT APPLY!!!! NOBODY should undercut anybody else to fly these machines! The worst we are talking is expansion and payrises - not job losses or down-scaling. NOBODY should be worse off.
So we should be talking baselines rates here and a committment from all groups that some centralised negotiation should take place. If Jetstar is offered 777s/A340s, then they MUST advise QF mainline and AO! If AO is offered 400s/A380s they MUST advise QF mainline. If mainline is to get 777s/A340s, A380s, 787s, they MUST keep AO and Jetstar in the loop regarding future job propsects, rates of pay etc.
The days of backdoor, backstabbing negotiations MUST STOP if we are to keep reasonable conditions in Australia. Negotiations must be consultative and open - THERE MUST BE NO MORE SWEETHEART DEALS done by negotiators! The only way that we will keep WHAT WE HAVE NOW is to start trusting each other.
Please note that I have not attacked anyone for undercutting QF mainline. If I was faced with retrenchment it would also make me prepared to look at whatever it took to keep my family going. I understand the pressure tthat Impulse and NJS pilots were subjected to. What we are talking about here is career enhancement and this opportunity MUST NOT be wasted. WE AS A PROFESSION HAVE GIVEN ENOUGH!
As KEG has said on the NJS/Jetstar thread, the best (only) way to do this is to have one pilot union representing all jet operators in this country, so that we are not continually backdooring each other. It is time to trust each other instead of insulting each other. It is time for ALL Jetstar pilots and NJS pilots and VB pilots to join one association. Get on the phone to AIPA and start talking. Whatever you think about AIPA, it is currently the biggest organisation of pilots in Australia. It has welcomed Jetstar members. If you don't like its direction (and currently a lot of peole don't) then get on the inside and change it.
There are some BIG opportunities coming up - WE MUST BE IN A POSITION TO CAPITALISE ON IT.
Can it happen? I don't know. All I know is that with the possiblities of an expanded AO, A380s and bulk 777s/A340s ahead, if we don't get ahead of the game and start thinking about ourselves collectively, then WE ARE STUFFED!
Over to you.
Bottums Up
Three Bars
My reading of the tea leaves.
Pilots like myself at NJS & Jetstar & Virgin & the next will continue to accept the conditions offered by our respective employers, or potential employers because we can't make it through the QF hoops, or we don't want to.
We'll continue to be thought of as lower class pilots because we didn't/couldn't jump through the QF hoops, by some of our so called colleagues at QF, though from reading PPRuNe posts one could be forgiven for thinking that lots of QF pilots think this way.
We'll be denied group representation because we're though of as lower class, despite flying the same or similar equipment, to equally safe standards, providing equally good service to our passengers.
Then one day things'll get so bad that those at the top of the pile will realise that accepting us into the club and forming a united body looking after all of our interests, is in the best interest of us all!. Then things will start to improve.
As an aside, at an AFAP meeting in Perth in about '97, I was asked why I wasn't a member of AIPA, by an AIPA rep. When I explained that as far as I knew approaches had been made to have us join AIPA but been rejected, he said that was nonsense and would get back to me ASAP.
If he doesn't call me soon I'm going to suffocate.
My reading of the tea leaves.
Pilots like myself at NJS & Jetstar & Virgin & the next will continue to accept the conditions offered by our respective employers, or potential employers because we can't make it through the QF hoops, or we don't want to.
We'll continue to be thought of as lower class pilots because we didn't/couldn't jump through the QF hoops, by some of our so called colleagues at QF, though from reading PPRuNe posts one could be forgiven for thinking that lots of QF pilots think this way.
We'll be denied group representation because we're though of as lower class, despite flying the same or similar equipment, to equally safe standards, providing equally good service to our passengers.
Then one day things'll get so bad that those at the top of the pile will realise that accepting us into the club and forming a united body looking after all of our interests, is in the best interest of us all!. Then things will start to improve.
As an aside, at an AFAP meeting in Perth in about '97, I was asked why I wasn't a member of AIPA, by an AIPA rep. When I explained that as far as I knew approaches had been made to have us join AIPA but been rejected, he said that was nonsense and would get back to me ASAP.
If he doesn't call me soon I'm going to suffocate.
Three Bars
Important topic. Probably needed a more sensationalist headline though - " QF Longhaul Pilots Grossly Overpaid".
QF pilots have been fighting losing battles without even realising they are at war - Domestic B Scale, Australian Airlines, J* etc etc.
With the capitulation of wages and conditions by J* pilots and more recently NJS pilots, QF Long Haul wages are a gross aberration. I would even suggest the VB wage is looking lucrative!
With the opening up of traditionally protected QF routes, competitors against QF- Singapore, Cathay, Dragon, China Airlines, Emirates and more - will open up more and more "lifestyle" bases for Australian pilots. With 120K being the low ball going rate for domestic captains, I would suggest 160K be the going rate for the new generation of long haul pilots based in SYD. QF Longhaul pilots are now uncompetitive!
QF Management have played upon the desperation and despair of J* and NJS pilot groups. They have warmed and been rewarded for the capitulation.
QF Managements' trump card has not been played yet- greed and ambition. How much will J* pilots fly widebodies for? Mainline F/0's will end up accepting similar as this their only hope for command.
The QF Selection Proccess is becoming a useful double edged sword for management aswell. The psyche profiling seems to create pro-company and non-militancy. The other edge creates resentment at perceived elitism and high pay from less well off pilot groups ( sentiments witnessed here on pprune ).
"What to do?". Unity is fantasy. I would be looking at grossly undervaluing command wage expectations for QF pilots and playing dirty in keeping flying for the QF pilot group.
Important topic. Probably needed a more sensationalist headline though - " QF Longhaul Pilots Grossly Overpaid".
QF pilots have been fighting losing battles without even realising they are at war - Domestic B Scale, Australian Airlines, J* etc etc.
With the capitulation of wages and conditions by J* pilots and more recently NJS pilots, QF Long Haul wages are a gross aberration. I would even suggest the VB wage is looking lucrative!
With the opening up of traditionally protected QF routes, competitors against QF- Singapore, Cathay, Dragon, China Airlines, Emirates and more - will open up more and more "lifestyle" bases for Australian pilots. With 120K being the low ball going rate for domestic captains, I would suggest 160K be the going rate for the new generation of long haul pilots based in SYD. QF Longhaul pilots are now uncompetitive!
QF Management have played upon the desperation and despair of J* and NJS pilot groups. They have warmed and been rewarded for the capitulation.
QF Managements' trump card has not been played yet- greed and ambition. How much will J* pilots fly widebodies for? Mainline F/0's will end up accepting similar as this their only hope for command.
The QF Selection Proccess is becoming a useful double edged sword for management aswell. The psyche profiling seems to create pro-company and non-militancy. The other edge creates resentment at perceived elitism and high pay from less well off pilot groups ( sentiments witnessed here on pprune ).
"What to do?". Unity is fantasy. I would be looking at grossly undervaluing command wage expectations for QF pilots and playing dirty in keeping flying for the QF pilot group.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zer Gut Ya?
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Three Bars. An excellent, well thought out, aspirational and truly heart felt post. I don't think there would be a single pilot in Auustralia today who disagrees with your sentiments.
Unfortunately, it just isn't realistic. The world out there is dog eat dog.
I just can't see Australian pilots ever getting it together for the common cause, and Gnadenburg is correct.
Simply put: Pilots are just too selfish.
Unfortunately, it just isn't realistic. The world out there is dog eat dog.
I just can't see Australian pilots ever getting it together for the common cause, and Gnadenburg is correct.
Simply put: Pilots are just too selfish.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,971
Received 96 Likes
on
55 Posts
And as I have posted before on several occasions in a fashion;
If all Pilots do not (eventually decide to) hang together the managements of certain companies will ensure that you all hang separately!!!
Get the message yet?????
Schnauzer; With all due respect I hope that you are wrong but.....
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
If all Pilots do not (eventually decide to) hang together the managements of certain companies will ensure that you all hang separately!!!
Get the message yet?????
I just can't see Australian pilots ever getting it together...
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
