Crack grounds NZ Hercules in Indonesia
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As a Kiwi, what DO we know about foreign policy, given our Govt. reckons we "live in a benign strategic environment"?
And I heard that the "J's" weren't all that they were supposed to be... The Guys on the Hercs (H models) at the moment don't talk too highly of them...
And I heard that the "J's" weren't all that they were supposed to be... The Guys on the Hercs (H models) at the moment don't talk too highly of them...
Last edited by BCF Breath; 11th Jan 2005 at 07:51.
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Isn't it "half-bitten"???
Actually it's probably more like:
"half-baked",
"hard-bitten",
"half-cocked", or
"half-wit".
But not "half-bit".
Dumb kiwis...............
Actually it's probably more like:
"half-baked",
"hard-bitten",
"half-cocked", or
"half-wit".
But not "half-bit".
Dumb kiwis...............
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Milt, Dunno about the "E" model, but as it was traded, one would assume it was a complete airframe. maybe it was timexed or had some fatigue issues.
As for the "H" models, I dunno who's getting what, but the aircraft were definately traded on "Js".
ZK,
Just go's to show that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to be a lord or prime minister then.
I would be thinking your primary school teacher would slap you upside the head for your spelling, if they got to read this.
As for the "H" models, I dunno who's getting what, but the aircraft were definately traded on "Js".
ZK,
oh, my mistake, next time ile make sure i have a plum in my mouth before i say anything,
and just for your information, i went to a very good school that has produced not only lord ernest rutherford, but also at least 1 former prime minister, and 1 secutary general of the comenwealth. so i suggest to you rather than spend your time being petty , go and do something usefull.
and just for your information, i went to a very good school that has produced not only lord ernest rutherford, but also at least 1 former prime minister, and 1 secutary general of the comenwealth. so i suggest to you rather than spend your time being petty , go and do something usefull.
I would be thinking your primary school teacher would slap you upside the head for your spelling, if they got to read this.
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The "H" model is still in service, as you can see in the last paragraph of this link.
No sign of them being replaced by "J" models, as were the "E" models.
No sign of them being replaced by "J" models, as were the "E" models.
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Milt - Are you suggesting that because his spelling is not up to scratch, that NSJ is unprofessional?
I suggest you champion's try www.grammer&spelling.nerds.com/loser. Who gives a toss how he spelt the damn post, the point was clear. NZ will give what it can and what is appropriate whether that be finacial or equipment.
Trying to say New Zealanders dont care or are slackers because have only contributed $2.45 p.p is complete bulls*#t! The person who wrote that article need's to remove their head from their ars*hole.
This will not be a short term issue, 5 years from now there will still be work to be done in the damaged area's and im sure NZ will be there to help.
I suggest you champion's try www.grammer&spelling.nerds.com/loser. Who gives a toss how he spelt the damn post, the point was clear. NZ will give what it can and what is appropriate whether that be finacial or equipment.
Trying to say New Zealanders dont care or are slackers because have only contributed $2.45 p.p is complete bulls*#t! The person who wrote that article need's to remove their head from their ars*hole.
This will not be a short term issue, 5 years from now there will still be work to be done in the damaged area's and im sure NZ will be there to help.
The stripping of NZ defence capabilities is nothing short of bludging on a national scale. Helen Clarke abolished any meaningful combat capabilities, with promises of an upgraded defence force and a more applicable peacekeeping role. Nothing has been delivered only further erosion and embarrassment!
The New Zealand air force is at best a Police Air Wing. Probably the most expensive Police Air wing in the world considering what a nominal capability it delivers.
All of the present capabilities of the RNZAF could be replaced by civilian resources. Far cheaper too.
Old Orions replaced by Coastwatch style aircraft. Herc's contracted out to civillian freight lift companies . Helen's VIP 757's could be sold and the role given to AirNZ. Scrap the training aircraft and expensive training resources as why do you need military style training for a police air wing? Utility helicopters for civil defence contracted out and scrap the Bell 47's.
Millions could be saved by disbanding the RNZAF.
But not only are the Kiwi's bludgers, they are parochial bludgers at that!
Having a token defence budget gives their national psyche a conscience, when other countries soldiers are in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests.
The New Zealand air force is at best a Police Air Wing. Probably the most expensive Police Air wing in the world considering what a nominal capability it delivers.
All of the present capabilities of the RNZAF could be replaced by civilian resources. Far cheaper too.
Old Orions replaced by Coastwatch style aircraft. Herc's contracted out to civillian freight lift companies . Helen's VIP 757's could be sold and the role given to AirNZ. Scrap the training aircraft and expensive training resources as why do you need military style training for a police air wing? Utility helicopters for civil defence contracted out and scrap the Bell 47's.
Millions could be saved by disbanding the RNZAF.
But not only are the Kiwi's bludgers, they are parochial bludgers at that!
Having a token defence budget gives their national psyche a conscience, when other countries soldiers are in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 12th Jan 2005 at 06:16.
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Just curious
Gnadenburg
When were other countries soldiers put in harms way rescuing NZ nationals aboard? Maybe my memory is not what it used to be.
Gnadenburg
Having a token defence budget gives their national psyche a conscience, when other countries soldiers are in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests
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yeah?, please tell gnadenburg, you seem to be knowledgable in this area, or are you one of these types who like to shoot your mouth off with no evidence to back up your comments, if so quit it, our defence force may not be the best most well equiped in the world, it has been run to the ground by government after government, but they do a good job with what they have got, just ask any yachtie (from any nationality) who has been saved by an orion in the pacific ocean, or the people of east timor, and in various communities in southern iraq, afganistan and bosnia, as well as the mine clearing work in africa, are you saying thats not worth it?
Greetings ANZAC's
Treholer.
I do not have a crystal ball so I can not give an exact time in the FUTURE when NZ nationals will be stranded in a hostile environment or NZ economic interests under threat - without even mentioning "laughable" New Zealand Defence Policy of contributing to global security.
New Zealand's present humanatarian relief challenges with the Tsunami, will be compounded when a similar and future situation develops; which has people shooting back! New Zealand is now ill-prepared for a hostile contingency.
ZK-NSJ
East Timor was the swansong in NZ Defence capability- a contribution of land, ground and air forces. Lost and eroding capabilities since Timor include: a regionally effective fighter bomber, effective medium and light airlift ( Andovers gone and Hercules fleet struggling ), utility and scout helicopters obsolete and the understated deterioration of Orion capabilities ( there were sub-surface considerations in Timor evidently ).
The present day NZ defence force is eroded in warfighting capability.
You asked me - " Are you saying it is not worth it ? ". Probably not. Considering the nominal capability deliverd your defence force is a ridiculous expense.
I would suggest Helen Clarke goes one step further and disbands the New Zealand Defence Force. It would save the present wasted millions that your defence resources command, on what is just a blunt knife.
RNZAF replaced by a Police Air Wing, RNZN replaced by a coastguard and the Army replaced with an expanded police force with a sound investment in SWAT like capabilities.
Treholer.
I do not have a crystal ball so I can not give an exact time in the FUTURE when NZ nationals will be stranded in a hostile environment or NZ economic interests under threat - without even mentioning "laughable" New Zealand Defence Policy of contributing to global security.
New Zealand's present humanatarian relief challenges with the Tsunami, will be compounded when a similar and future situation develops; which has people shooting back! New Zealand is now ill-prepared for a hostile contingency.
ZK-NSJ
East Timor was the swansong in NZ Defence capability- a contribution of land, ground and air forces. Lost and eroding capabilities since Timor include: a regionally effective fighter bomber, effective medium and light airlift ( Andovers gone and Hercules fleet struggling ), utility and scout helicopters obsolete and the understated deterioration of Orion capabilities ( there were sub-surface considerations in Timor evidently ).
The present day NZ defence force is eroded in warfighting capability.
You asked me - " Are you saying it is not worth it ? ". Probably not. Considering the nominal capability deliverd your defence force is a ridiculous expense.
I would suggest Helen Clarke goes one step further and disbands the New Zealand Defence Force. It would save the present wasted millions that your defence resources command, on what is just a blunt knife.
RNZAF replaced by a Police Air Wing, RNZN replaced by a coastguard and the Army replaced with an expanded police force with a sound investment in SWAT like capabilities.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 13th Jan 2005 at 05:14.
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Gnadenburg: So when you said " when other countries soldiers are (note the use of that word) in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests " it was was just a lie ?
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from the rnzaf website,
Hercules Returns Home
One of the RNZAF C-130 Hercules, which has been flying relief operations in tsunami-affected areas, will today leave Indonesia.
The Hercules will fly to Darwin today (8 January) and is due to arrive at RNZAF Base Whenuapai tomorrow night (9 January).
Once back in New Zealand the Hercules and crew will continue with planned tasking, including supporting NZDF personnel rotations to Afghanistan.
Chief of the Defence Force, Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson says he’s extremely proud of the work done by the two C-130 Hercules, the Boeing 757 and their crews.
“The decision was made to send two C-130s to area. These aircraft were carrying defects at the time, however they were still able to fly valuable humanitarian aid in to Banda Ache,” he said
“To date the two C-130s have flown 75 hours on task. This is not a bad effort and should take precedent over the two relatively minor faults that have been repaired.”
“Those criticising should look at what the crews have done to keep the aircraft flying.”
“I’m immensely proud of the way my young men and women have come together.
I called them in at short notice, many came back from leave and they were all willing to deploy overseas and take part in the relief effort.”
“The Government has approved an upgrade project, which will effectively restore the aircraft to virtually new condition. Many nations around the world are watching what we doing with our C-130s as all nations who fly the aircraft face similar problems to us.”
“These young men and women they fly these aircraft should be praised and not criticised. They are proud of what they are doing – we all should be.”
The C-130 Hercules remaining in Jakarta will continue flying humanitarian aid to affected areas.
An RNZAF Boeing 757 will also continue flying relief missions.
Hercules Returns Home
One of the RNZAF C-130 Hercules, which has been flying relief operations in tsunami-affected areas, will today leave Indonesia.
The Hercules will fly to Darwin today (8 January) and is due to arrive at RNZAF Base Whenuapai tomorrow night (9 January).
Once back in New Zealand the Hercules and crew will continue with planned tasking, including supporting NZDF personnel rotations to Afghanistan.
Chief of the Defence Force, Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson says he’s extremely proud of the work done by the two C-130 Hercules, the Boeing 757 and their crews.
“The decision was made to send two C-130s to area. These aircraft were carrying defects at the time, however they were still able to fly valuable humanitarian aid in to Banda Ache,” he said
“To date the two C-130s have flown 75 hours on task. This is not a bad effort and should take precedent over the two relatively minor faults that have been repaired.”
“Those criticising should look at what the crews have done to keep the aircraft flying.”
“I’m immensely proud of the way my young men and women have come together.
I called them in at short notice, many came back from leave and they were all willing to deploy overseas and take part in the relief effort.”
“The Government has approved an upgrade project, which will effectively restore the aircraft to virtually new condition. Many nations around the world are watching what we doing with our C-130s as all nations who fly the aircraft face similar problems to us.”
“These young men and women they fly these aircraft should be praised and not criticised. They are proud of what they are doing – we all should be.”
The C-130 Hercules remaining in Jakarta will continue flying humanitarian aid to affected areas.
An RNZAF Boeing 757 will also continue flying relief missions.
Henry Crun
"WHEN" was used in the context that it is "INEVITABLE" that future conflicts will involve New Zealand nationals and interests in someway.
Will New Zealanders never be caught up in terrorism, civil war or social anarchy? Scenarios that are inevitable in our backyard.
Will New Zealand interests never be in jeopardy? Trade routes to Asia or the Mid East vulnerable in time of future war. The inevitable rogue state, whether under the pretext of a dictaorship or religion, destabilising a region or partaking in ethnic cleansing.
Helen Clarke has stated her 21st century Defence Policy includes contributions to all of the above scenarios under the guise of Global Security an Peace Keeping.
Her government has run down the NZ defence forces with the inevitable bludging on US, Australian and UK defence resources; aswell as those of emerging nations.
Remarks by NATO generals that NZ soldiers were so poorly equipped that they were a hinderence in basic peacekeeping efforts, or reports elite but poorly kitted NZ SAS initially dug latrines for German soldiers in Afganistan, indications NZ nationals ( albeit in uniform ) may have already been rescued or kept out of harms way by foreign troops!
ZK-NSJ
Would you be happy to send young New Zealand men and women to a future war with unservicable equipment?
Why have the Hercules not been replaced as per Helen Clarke's promises of years gone by? Is she a bludger or is bludging, collectively, a New Zealand pastime?
"WHEN" was used in the context that it is "INEVITABLE" that future conflicts will involve New Zealand nationals and interests in someway.
Will New Zealanders never be caught up in terrorism, civil war or social anarchy? Scenarios that are inevitable in our backyard.
Will New Zealand interests never be in jeopardy? Trade routes to Asia or the Mid East vulnerable in time of future war. The inevitable rogue state, whether under the pretext of a dictaorship or religion, destabilising a region or partaking in ethnic cleansing.
Helen Clarke has stated her 21st century Defence Policy includes contributions to all of the above scenarios under the guise of Global Security an Peace Keeping.
Her government has run down the NZ defence forces with the inevitable bludging on US, Australian and UK defence resources; aswell as those of emerging nations.
Remarks by NATO generals that NZ soldiers were so poorly equipped that they were a hinderence in basic peacekeeping efforts, or reports elite but poorly kitted NZ SAS initially dug latrines for German soldiers in Afganistan, indications NZ nationals ( albeit in uniform ) may have already been rescued or kept out of harms way by foreign troops!
ZK-NSJ
Would you be happy to send young New Zealand men and women to a future war with unservicable equipment?
Why have the Hercules not been replaced as per Helen Clarke's promises of years gone by? Is she a bludger or is bludging, collectively, a New Zealand pastime?
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so one of our sas guys getting his foot blown off when the vehicle he was in hit a mine was untrue then?, unless ofcourse he was taking a break from his latrine digging,, now i have been in the nz army myself for a short period, and i have various mates who still are there, one of which recently came back from 6 months in basra, another of which is learning how to drive a brand new lav-3 , believe me for the money these guys and girls get to do the job they do, its obvious they are committed to the cause, would you go to the otherside of the world and risk your life for under $25 grand a year, i doubt it, but these guys do, and you sitting on your lounge chair watching the cricket with the beers in the fridge feel obligated to comment on something that a) has nothing to do with the original thread anyway, b) you arnt in the nz military, you only read what **** for brains reporters write and obviously u believe what they say, notice how in the newspaper article it went on and on about the mechanical fault yet said little about what the crews had done while they had been there, 75hrs in only a few days delivering vital supplys, but ofcourse the reporter isnt sent there to report on the good side of things all they want to do is dig for skeletons , and then have the gall to critisise us for sending inadequate support, 2 or 3 years at journalism school, and they come out as bigger bull**** artists than politicians are. 
and are you calling bludging a new zealand pasttime???, if so go jump in the lake, tell my mate who works 3 jobs and 80hrs a week that, or myself i work 65hrs a week in 2 jobs to make a living, i detest the fact that u feel you can comment on such matters, when you dont even bloody well live here....
(from archived nzdf media)
NZ SOLDIERS INJURED IN AFGHANISTAN
Wednesday October 23, 2002
Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson, Chief of Defence Force, stated today that three members of the NZ SAS contingent serving in Afghanistan were wounded yesterday when the vehicle in which they were patrolling ran over a landmine and was destroyed.
“Our three soldiers, the only occupants of the vehicle, were on a routine patrol when it hit the mine,” said Air Marshal Ferguson.
“Their injuries are serious but not life-threatening. They were quickly evacuated to a military hospital in theatre where they are being treated. All are in stable condition. One soldier will be returned to New Zealand via Germany while the other two are likely to remain in theatre with their unit.
“I will not be releasing their names but their families have been informed of the incident and the injuries sustained by the soldiers.
“The coalition forces value highly the work being undertaken by our soldiers in Afghanistan and we can all take pride in the professionalism they bring to their often difficult, and, as shown by this incident, dangerous task.”
For further media inquiries, the Minister of Defence and the Chief of Defence Force will be holding a media conference at 11.45 am, Minister’s office, Beehive 5.3
ENDS
Released by
Wing Commander John Seward
digging latrines my f***ing arse
and are you calling bludging a new zealand pasttime???, if so go jump in the lake, tell my mate who works 3 jobs and 80hrs a week that, or myself i work 65hrs a week in 2 jobs to make a living, i detest the fact that u feel you can comment on such matters, when you dont even bloody well live here.... (from archived nzdf media)
NZ SOLDIERS INJURED IN AFGHANISTAN
Wednesday October 23, 2002
Air Marshal Bruce Ferguson, Chief of Defence Force, stated today that three members of the NZ SAS contingent serving in Afghanistan were wounded yesterday when the vehicle in which they were patrolling ran over a landmine and was destroyed.
“Our three soldiers, the only occupants of the vehicle, were on a routine patrol when it hit the mine,” said Air Marshal Ferguson.
“Their injuries are serious but not life-threatening. They were quickly evacuated to a military hospital in theatre where they are being treated. All are in stable condition. One soldier will be returned to New Zealand via Germany while the other two are likely to remain in theatre with their unit.
“I will not be releasing their names but their families have been informed of the incident and the injuries sustained by the soldiers.
“The coalition forces value highly the work being undertaken by our soldiers in Afghanistan and we can all take pride in the professionalism they bring to their often difficult, and, as shown by this incident, dangerous task.”
For further media inquiries, the Minister of Defence and the Chief of Defence Force will be holding a media conference at 11.45 am, Minister’s office, Beehive 5.3
ENDS
Released by
Wing Commander John Seward
digging latrines my f***ing arse
Last edited by ZK-NSJ; 13th Jan 2005 at 08:08.
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So when you said " when other countries soldiers are (note the use of that word) in harms way rescuing NZ nationals abroad or protecting NZ economic interests " it was was just a lie ?
You see, that monster of a PM hates the RNZAF. It is paying them back for when they had to rescue it from the ANsett baggage-snatchers who single-handedly brought New Zulland to its knees by corralling their PM with a bunch of baggage trolleys at Tullamarine a few years ago.
The RNZAF invaded us with a P-3 sent to rescue it and it had to sit on a life-raft drinking luke-warm tea stirred by the Nav's old fella.
Sending a P-3 instead of somthing more plush was payback for scrapping the A-4s.
This act by the baggies (which they still laugh about) was nearly cause for (a very short) war between our great nation and the other two states. Problem was, the Hobbitonians couldn't invade when they realised half of them were already over here bludging on the beaches.
The Moral of the Story? Never drink tea that isn't scalding hot.
Last edited by one ball; 13th Jan 2005 at 11:09.
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"ANsett baggage-snatchers who single-handedly brought New Zulland to its knees"?????
I just thought they parked a few airport vehicles around a 737 on the gate, crikey, I never realised that New Zealand was nearly destroyed by this action! I want some of whatever "one ball" is on, must be powerful stuff indeed to take you that far from reality.
And by the way Gnadenburg, you shouldn't really call all NZers bludgers. It is very dangerous to generalise in such matters, otherwise we could make the assumption that all Aussies were tossers (judging by some of the drivel that has been posted here)
The RNZAF has some stuffed old Hercs, but the crews that fly & maintain them were out there doing their best to help other people. If the most anyone can get out of this is a trans-Tasman slanging match, well that's a pretty sad commentary on your respective lives.
I just thought they parked a few airport vehicles around a 737 on the gate, crikey, I never realised that New Zealand was nearly destroyed by this action! I want some of whatever "one ball" is on, must be powerful stuff indeed to take you that far from reality.
And by the way Gnadenburg, you shouldn't really call all NZers bludgers. It is very dangerous to generalise in such matters, otherwise we could make the assumption that all Aussies were tossers (judging by some of the drivel that has been posted here)
The RNZAF has some stuffed old Hercs, but the crews that fly & maintain them were out there doing their best to help other people. If the most anyone can get out of this is a trans-Tasman slanging match, well that's a pretty sad commentary on your respective lives.
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I wouldn't just blame the existing Govt.
The previous one had a good run at winding it down. HOWEVER at least they had some plans to upgrade it prior to their defeat. EG, F-16s.
The current Govt is finally starting to do something after how many years in power??
Only now are the Hercs being upgraded (or about to be) the Choppers are finally about to get signed off.
The Army are finally getting some sort of Air Defence (which was a problem in Bosnia), the LAVs are new...and heavy. But how many Armys send tanks to war in aircraft? Normally by sea. But did we need 105, I don't think so.
We could've got half the number and STILL got the F-16s.
Mis-management at higher levels needs to be addressed before anything concrete can happen.
Anyway they're doing a job to the best of their abilities and those of the aircraft.
Lets not mention Aussie Subs.
The previous one had a good run at winding it down. HOWEVER at least they had some plans to upgrade it prior to their defeat. EG, F-16s.
The current Govt is finally starting to do something after how many years in power??
Only now are the Hercs being upgraded (or about to be) the Choppers are finally about to get signed off.
The Army are finally getting some sort of Air Defence (which was a problem in Bosnia), the LAVs are new...and heavy. But how many Armys send tanks to war in aircraft? Normally by sea. But did we need 105, I don't think so.
We could've got half the number and STILL got the F-16s.
Mis-management at higher levels needs to be addressed before anything concrete can happen.
Anyway they're doing a job to the best of their abilities and those of the aircraft.
Lets not mention Aussie Subs.
Last edited by Plas Teek; 13th Jan 2005 at 21:21.
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Fair enough.
Anyway just a few tidbits off the local rag........ the second is quite humorous. Just a pity it's true.
NZ Herald 14JAN05
Hercules fleet needs to be replaced and expanded, say critics
RNZAF Hercules.
14.01.05 1.00pm
Royal New Zealand Air Force Hercules aircraft are criticised every time one breaks down. The latest glitches in tsunami-devastated Asia have once more raised concerns that the fleet is too old and too small, Heather Tyler of NZPA reports.
Retired chief of defence Air Marshal Carey Adamson has great affection for the Hercules, dubbed Herc, hero of the skies.
He was one of the original crews to fly the first RNZAF Hercules, the C130H, into Wellington, 40 years ago in April this year.
But he says New Zealand's fleet should start to be replaced now, instead of being upgraded, and that more are needed.
"Even with the upgrades, sooner or later they will have to be replaced and it will cost hugely to do this. It's better to replace a couple now, at least. And we need more than five," he told NZPA in an interview.
He praised the Hercules' workhorse capability, saying they performed a wider range of functions now than ever, particularly for humanitarian relief efforts.
New Zealand's five Hercs were delivered between 1965 and 1968.
At least 60 countries fly the same aircraft.
Australia has 24 Hercules, its 12 C130H models in service since 1966 replaced by new C130Js in 1999. The other 12 C130Hs, in service since 1978, have been upgraded.
Britain's Royal Air Force has 49 of the aircraft, including five in reserve. It replaced 25 older types in 2000.
Air Marshal Adamson said New Zealand had the chance to buy C130Js in conjunction with an Australian deal with Lockheed in the late 1990s, but when Australia withdrew, New Zealand's opportunity disappeared.
The RNZAF was a victim of the fact it operated a very small fleet.
"One was always out of service for maintenance, in pieces on a hangar floor. In recent years aircraft could be overseas for more extended periods and one was always needed to stay in New Zealand in case of an emergency," Air Marshall Adamson said.
"Given the multiple tasks the Herc can perform, the fleet's resources were often stretched to the limit."
Apart from carrying troops and other personnel, the transport is used for search and rescue, as an aerial tanker, for humanitarian relief, as an airborne hospital, Antarctic support, weather reconnaissance and, to a limited extent, in a gunship capacity.
"We don't have a lot of flexibility," Air Marshal Adamson said.
"Air forces like to have aircraft in reserve. We don't have that luxury. The fleet is too small. We need more planes -- that's the way you run an air force."
One of the country's loudest critics of the ageing fleet is NZ First defence spokesman Ron Mark. He's become more irate since the combat wing of the air force was scrapped at the end of 2001.
Before he went into politics, Mr Mark was a military mechanical engineer.
He believes the Hercules fleet should be replaced, not upgraded as the Government plans with $226 million earmarked for modification.
It will be 2010 before the upgrades are complete and the aircraft will then last another 15 years.
It's the cheaper option for the Government -- estimated replacement cost of the five C130s is more than $800m.
Mr Mark says reducing defence spending is wrong -- it's downplaying possibly the best foreign aid tool New Zealand has to offer in terms of defence and disaster relief.
"It's foolhardy to focus on the so-called benign defence environment in the South Pacific and use that as an excuse for under-investment in defence obligations."
Mr Mark said New Zealand's ability to respond to an international emergency such as terrorism or natural disasters, at home or abroad, often hinged on how rapidly it could deploy defence resources.
"Quite clearly, with successive governments running down their commitments and expenditure on defence, our ability to respond is in question. It's clearly hampered by the unreliability of our aircraft."
In the past few days two Hercs were grounded during tsunami relief efforts in Indonesia -- one with a cracked engine manifold and one with a gas turbine compressor fault.
The Hercules have suffered a litany of well-publicised woes.
In the two years ended March 1999, 86 Hercules missions were delayed because of malfunctions.
In July 2002 the air force admitted its No 40 Squadron was at crisis point when the five Hercules and the two Boeing 727s were broken down or undergoing service at the same time.
Deployments to the Solomon Islands and Niue were also delayed last year due to breakdowns.
Mr Mark says Labour inherited the under-investment of past administrations, but failed to understand that by mothballing its combat aircraft, it would lose expertise vital to maintaining what was left of its airpower.
"What makes our air force fleets unreliable is our inability to provide enough manpower to maintain them to the military standards required. As the age of the equipment goes up, the servicing schedules and the workload generated from those service schedules becomes more complex.
"We are suffering a shortage of experienced expertise. They are the very people we need to maintain an ageing fleet."
The Hercules has been an unqualified success story for manufacturers Lockheed and is still in production more than 40 years after it was rolled out.
The hero of the skies was developed in the mid 1950s during the Korean War when the United States Air Force needed a military transport capable of flying combat troops over medium distances and landing them on short runways.
The Hercules is anything but glamorous, with a fat fuselage sitting low to the ground and four propellers on straight wings.
The turbine-driven props enabled the Herc to take off on short runways, even rough dirt strips.
RNZAF spokesman Ric Cullinane defended the Hercules' reputation, saying New Zealand's five broke down less often than those from other nations.
During missions in the first Gulf War and in Rwanda, American commanders praised the New Zealanders' Hercules for moving more freight and people per aircraft than any other nation, he said.
"The headlines do not reflect the Herc's true reputation. When a Herc breaks down in an isolated area on a relief mission, for example, there are no spare parts readily available and they have to be flown in. That could happen to any nation's aircraft."
The many missions to the Antarctic last year went without a hitch.
Five years ago a New Zealand Herc won an aircraft maintenance competition in Britain -- and it was the oldest in a competitive field of 27 from 15 countries.
Said Air Marshal Adamson: "Unfortunately ageing aircraft break down more. And when you have to replace one of ours that's broken down, you have to fly in another one.
"When you've got only five, it's clearly not enough."
Obviously!
Anyway just a few tidbits off the local rag........ the second is quite humorous. Just a pity it's true.
NZ Herald 14JAN05
Hercules fleet needs to be replaced and expanded, say critics
RNZAF Hercules.
14.01.05 1.00pm
Royal New Zealand Air Force Hercules aircraft are criticised every time one breaks down. The latest glitches in tsunami-devastated Asia have once more raised concerns that the fleet is too old and too small, Heather Tyler of NZPA reports.
Retired chief of defence Air Marshal Carey Adamson has great affection for the Hercules, dubbed Herc, hero of the skies.
He was one of the original crews to fly the first RNZAF Hercules, the C130H, into Wellington, 40 years ago in April this year.
But he says New Zealand's fleet should start to be replaced now, instead of being upgraded, and that more are needed.
"Even with the upgrades, sooner or later they will have to be replaced and it will cost hugely to do this. It's better to replace a couple now, at least. And we need more than five," he told NZPA in an interview.
He praised the Hercules' workhorse capability, saying they performed a wider range of functions now than ever, particularly for humanitarian relief efforts.
New Zealand's five Hercs were delivered between 1965 and 1968.
At least 60 countries fly the same aircraft.
Australia has 24 Hercules, its 12 C130H models in service since 1966 replaced by new C130Js in 1999. The other 12 C130Hs, in service since 1978, have been upgraded.
Britain's Royal Air Force has 49 of the aircraft, including five in reserve. It replaced 25 older types in 2000.
Air Marshal Adamson said New Zealand had the chance to buy C130Js in conjunction with an Australian deal with Lockheed in the late 1990s, but when Australia withdrew, New Zealand's opportunity disappeared.
The RNZAF was a victim of the fact it operated a very small fleet.
"One was always out of service for maintenance, in pieces on a hangar floor. In recent years aircraft could be overseas for more extended periods and one was always needed to stay in New Zealand in case of an emergency," Air Marshall Adamson said.
"Given the multiple tasks the Herc can perform, the fleet's resources were often stretched to the limit."
Apart from carrying troops and other personnel, the transport is used for search and rescue, as an aerial tanker, for humanitarian relief, as an airborne hospital, Antarctic support, weather reconnaissance and, to a limited extent, in a gunship capacity.
"We don't have a lot of flexibility," Air Marshal Adamson said.
"Air forces like to have aircraft in reserve. We don't have that luxury. The fleet is too small. We need more planes -- that's the way you run an air force."
One of the country's loudest critics of the ageing fleet is NZ First defence spokesman Ron Mark. He's become more irate since the combat wing of the air force was scrapped at the end of 2001.
Before he went into politics, Mr Mark was a military mechanical engineer.
He believes the Hercules fleet should be replaced, not upgraded as the Government plans with $226 million earmarked for modification.
It will be 2010 before the upgrades are complete and the aircraft will then last another 15 years.
It's the cheaper option for the Government -- estimated replacement cost of the five C130s is more than $800m.
Mr Mark says reducing defence spending is wrong -- it's downplaying possibly the best foreign aid tool New Zealand has to offer in terms of defence and disaster relief.
"It's foolhardy to focus on the so-called benign defence environment in the South Pacific and use that as an excuse for under-investment in defence obligations."
Mr Mark said New Zealand's ability to respond to an international emergency such as terrorism or natural disasters, at home or abroad, often hinged on how rapidly it could deploy defence resources.
"Quite clearly, with successive governments running down their commitments and expenditure on defence, our ability to respond is in question. It's clearly hampered by the unreliability of our aircraft."
In the past few days two Hercs were grounded during tsunami relief efforts in Indonesia -- one with a cracked engine manifold and one with a gas turbine compressor fault.
The Hercules have suffered a litany of well-publicised woes.
In the two years ended March 1999, 86 Hercules missions were delayed because of malfunctions.
In July 2002 the air force admitted its No 40 Squadron was at crisis point when the five Hercules and the two Boeing 727s were broken down or undergoing service at the same time.
Deployments to the Solomon Islands and Niue were also delayed last year due to breakdowns.
Mr Mark says Labour inherited the under-investment of past administrations, but failed to understand that by mothballing its combat aircraft, it would lose expertise vital to maintaining what was left of its airpower.
"What makes our air force fleets unreliable is our inability to provide enough manpower to maintain them to the military standards required. As the age of the equipment goes up, the servicing schedules and the workload generated from those service schedules becomes more complex.
"We are suffering a shortage of experienced expertise. They are the very people we need to maintain an ageing fleet."
The Hercules has been an unqualified success story for manufacturers Lockheed and is still in production more than 40 years after it was rolled out.
The hero of the skies was developed in the mid 1950s during the Korean War when the United States Air Force needed a military transport capable of flying combat troops over medium distances and landing them on short runways.
The Hercules is anything but glamorous, with a fat fuselage sitting low to the ground and four propellers on straight wings.
The turbine-driven props enabled the Herc to take off on short runways, even rough dirt strips.
RNZAF spokesman Ric Cullinane defended the Hercules' reputation, saying New Zealand's five broke down less often than those from other nations.
During missions in the first Gulf War and in Rwanda, American commanders praised the New Zealanders' Hercules for moving more freight and people per aircraft than any other nation, he said.
"The headlines do not reflect the Herc's true reputation. When a Herc breaks down in an isolated area on a relief mission, for example, there are no spare parts readily available and they have to be flown in. That could happen to any nation's aircraft."
The many missions to the Antarctic last year went without a hitch.
Five years ago a New Zealand Herc won an aircraft maintenance competition in Britain -- and it was the oldest in a competitive field of 27 from 15 countries.
Said Air Marshal Adamson: "Unfortunately ageing aircraft break down more. And when you have to replace one of ours that's broken down, you have to fly in another one.
"When you've got only five, it's clearly not enough."
Obviously!
Last edited by BCF Breath; 14th Jan 2005 at 04:55.