Coroner v CASA over 404 crash.
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Coroner v CASA over 404 crash.
Yes, I know that is pretty GAish, but this is of far wider import I think.
This is about the 404 that crashed at JT with 2 deaths and the other 4 still recovering from burns.
From ABC news: Coroners inquest hearing is on for next April.
They asked CASA for the pilots quals etc, and got nothing until they obtained a court order for CASA to hand over the details.
They have asked MANY times for the details of the fire service being pulled, and are still waiting, as CASA have said nothing.
So, now is the time to get on to your local member and get them to ask in Parlement why, and how much they claim to have saved.
BTW, anyone know what happened to the JT fire station?
This is about the 404 that crashed at JT with 2 deaths and the other 4 still recovering from burns.
From ABC news: Coroners inquest hearing is on for next April.
They asked CASA for the pilots quals etc, and got nothing until they obtained a court order for CASA to hand over the details.
They have asked MANY times for the details of the fire service being pulled, and are still waiting, as CASA have said nothing.
So, now is the time to get on to your local member and get them to ask in Parlement why, and how much they claim to have saved.
BTW, anyone know what happened to the JT fire station?
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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G'day farqueue,
Interesting question you ask about cost savings. Whilst not applicable to aviation, I recently saw some figures where volunteer bush fire brigade contribution in terms of days worked, property saved etc amounted to something like 7 million dollars for which they received grants totalling less than $500,000.00
The FRS at Jandakot was pulled many moons ago maybe early 90s. The buildings are now used by the airport owners to store their maintenance eqpt.
The question as to whether or not FRS presence on the field would have made any difference to the final outcome in this instance was the subject of much debate at the time.
Interesting question you ask about cost savings. Whilst not applicable to aviation, I recently saw some figures where volunteer bush fire brigade contribution in terms of days worked, property saved etc amounted to something like 7 million dollars for which they received grants totalling less than $500,000.00
The FRS at Jandakot was pulled many moons ago maybe early 90s. The buildings are now used by the airport owners to store their maintenance eqpt.
The question as to whether or not FRS presence on the field would have made any difference to the final outcome in this instance was the subject of much debate at the time.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 5th Nov 2004 at 13:28.
farqueue Yes it was in the early nineties, I will see if I can find the date/year.
Airport RFFS was then under the behemoth known as CAA which then split in to AirServices and CASA. AirSevices are now responsible for RFFS.
Was the crash site accesible for a fire appliance of any size?
Don't the GA airports now have a poor mans fire/emergency truck provided by the airport owners rather than AirServices?
Airport RFFS was then under the behemoth known as CAA which then split in to AirServices and CASA. AirSevices are now responsible for RFFS.
Was the crash site accesible for a fire appliance of any size?
Don't the GA airports now have a poor mans fire/emergency truck provided by the airport owners rather than AirServices?
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Simply no, at least not IMHO of a size that could have achieved very much in the time required. These fires are very intense and lethal within the first minutes.
I suspect that an airport based RFFS would not have made all that much difference.
I suspect that an airport based RFFS would not have made all that much difference.
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Last time there was a aircraft fire on the field which from memory was the R22 prang, the initial response capability was a few fire extinguishers chucked into the back of the Holden Rodeo.
Fortunately both instructor and student managed to get themselves clear with relatively minor injuries.
Fortunately both instructor and student managed to get themselves clear with relatively minor injuries.
The site was accessible but having Fire Services on the field would have made no difference to the outcome in this case.
The injuries sustained in this terrible accident happened in a split second upon impact and the spontaneous fire.
The crew was burnt immediately whilst escaping the burning wreckage.
I am an advocate for having a fire service on the field be it one operated by all the companies on the airport or otherwise.
The injuries sustained in this terrible accident happened in a split second upon impact and the spontaneous fire.
The crew was burnt immediately whilst escaping the burning wreckage.
I am an advocate for having a fire service on the field be it one operated by all the companies on the airport or otherwise.
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The site of the crash was accessable, in fact it was where they used to do their hot fire practice I believe. Sort of like the fish jumping into your bucket!
Has the ATSB released the full report yet?
Has the ATSB released the full report yet?
Putting aside this unfortunate accident, the removal of the RFFS came about at a time when the old Dept of Transport was dissected into FAC and CASA/AsA, with both the latter splitting up to be their own entities and self-funding - let's not go there for the time being, including Mr "affordable safety".
RFFS were removed from virtually all GA airports including town airports receiving scheduled RPT jet services e.g. Mt Isa, as was the tower service. My recollection of YPJT was that the industry did not want to pay for it and I'm sure there have been posts on this forum about this in the past.
If an emergency is declared the local service can attend (this happened just recently for a QF service into Isa with a brakes problem) but unless this happens nobody will get there in time to deal with a serious post-impact fire.
My view - unless this country stops the selfish user-pays approach where the big players will only pay for what they use and go back to an Australia wide network approach, forget about ever seeing RFFS in-situ at GA airports. The pollies will do all the usual pay-lip service type things but will hit a brickwall when the big end of town (int'l/dom airlines) get involved.
RFFS were removed from virtually all GA airports including town airports receiving scheduled RPT jet services e.g. Mt Isa, as was the tower service. My recollection of YPJT was that the industry did not want to pay for it and I'm sure there have been posts on this forum about this in the past.
If an emergency is declared the local service can attend (this happened just recently for a QF service into Isa with a brakes problem) but unless this happens nobody will get there in time to deal with a serious post-impact fire.
My view - unless this country stops the selfish user-pays approach where the big players will only pay for what they use and go back to an Australia wide network approach, forget about ever seeing RFFS in-situ at GA airports. The pollies will do all the usual pay-lip service type things but will hit a brickwall when the big end of town (int'l/dom airlines) get involved.
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Cost of a fire service is around $5,000,000 per annum allowing for a return on capital used on the establishment of the service.
Comments on large capacity RPT are justified as ICAO says you must have them, Australia does not comply nor has it advised ICAO of this non compliance. The airlines apply the ICAO rules to their international flights, for being members of IATA they must comply, but not domestic flights.
On the other side it is stated not 1 life in 25yrs in Australia has been saved by these services, when the disaster occured unannounced ie. NO prior emegency advised by PIC. (Is this an urban myth or true?)
I would not worry your local member re CASA not responding. The Coroner has very strong legal powers, including enforced appearance and document search.
My guess is he is stating now "co-operate more speedily or expect trouble"
Comments on large capacity RPT are justified as ICAO says you must have them, Australia does not comply nor has it advised ICAO of this non compliance. The airlines apply the ICAO rules to their international flights, for being members of IATA they must comply, but not domestic flights.
On the other side it is stated not 1 life in 25yrs in Australia has been saved by these services, when the disaster occured unannounced ie. NO prior emegency advised by PIC. (Is this an urban myth or true?)
I would not worry your local member re CASA not responding. The Coroner has very strong legal powers, including enforced appearance and document search.
My guess is he is stating now "co-operate more speedily or expect trouble"
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Without sounding like a CASA lover, could the delay have been caused by not knowing where the information as to why the removal of the RFFS is. Asking CASA to find the information that now lies in AirServices files, is a bit like asking Qantas for information that is held by Virgin.
I could, and have often been, Wrong of course.
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I could, and have often been, Wrong of course.
BM
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Coroner warns CASA
WA coroner Alastair Hope warned the CASA of a possible adverse finding during an inquest into the deaths of two passengers in a Cessna 404 Titan which hit trees and exploded just after take-off on August 11 last year at Jandakot, reports said.
During a directions hearing, the police officer who investigated the crash, Sen. Const. Scott Walker, said he had written to CASA's legal counsel requesting details on safety audit procedures at Jandakot and asking why emergency services at the airport were downgraded in the early 1990s.
During a directions hearing, the police officer who investigated the crash, Sen. Const. Scott Walker, said he had written to CASA's legal counsel requesting details on safety audit procedures at Jandakot and asking why emergency services at the airport were downgraded in the early 1990s.
justapplhere the answer is in WALLEY2's post. An international airport must have an aiport based RFFS (as required by ICAO) but at a non-international airport CASA do not regulate the same rules. While the value of life may be constant, the rules are not.
Like WALLEY2, many people have told me that an airport based RFFS hasn't saved anyone at an Australian airport since the Wright Brothers died. Do we have a PPrune reader who can add to our knowledge in this area?
Like WALLEY2, many people have told me that an airport based RFFS hasn't saved anyone at an Australian airport since the Wright Brothers died. Do we have a PPrune reader who can add to our knowledge in this area?
