S/O fun & games in QF
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S/O fun & games in QF
Well it’s gone vewy vewy quiet on the qrewroom about fleet pay for S/Os. My source in the hallowed sanctum tells me that the word has gone out for AIPA to hush up on this one till the deal is done in the new EBA. After all, we can’t have lowly second officers kicking up a stink. They are unrepresented on COM by their ilk so when they get their lumps they should take them like, well errr….second officers!
Lets see, so far it’s no touchy touchy except in the cruise for A330 S/Os. They can now fiddle and diddle to their hearts content and of course we can’t pay too much for people who only fiddle and diddle. How long before the 400 troops follow?
What about overtime? When everything is on the table a good company negotiator would be remiss in his duty if he didn’t try and spear a hole in that one too. Only for S/Os of course.
Gunna be fun this EBA to see what pops out the other end.
Lets see, so far it’s no touchy touchy except in the cruise for A330 S/Os. They can now fiddle and diddle to their hearts content and of course we can’t pay too much for people who only fiddle and diddle. How long before the 400 troops follow?
What about overtime? When everything is on the table a good company negotiator would be remiss in his duty if he didn’t try and spear a hole in that one too. Only for S/Os of course.
Gunna be fun this EBA to see what pops out the other end.
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12 year 744 S/O's already get more per credited hour than 6 year 767 F/O's. If the A380 gets any sort of pay rise over the -400, and it should, we may be in the situation where an A380 S/O straight off the street is earning more per credited hour than say a 10 year F/O on the 767.
And that is before you factor in overtime.
Hardly fair and needs to be addressed.
And that is before you factor in overtime.
Hardly fair and needs to be addressed.
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Yeah Borg, but not as easy to fix as it seems.
Right on, Bonvol. Will be very, very interesting to see the result. Hope AIPA don't do anything they might regret later! S'pose the S/Os don't have much of a choice but to bend over & take what they get!
Right on, Bonvol. Will be very, very interesting to see the result. Hope AIPA don't do anything they might regret later! S'pose the S/Os don't have much of a choice but to bend over & take what they get!
TCOB - I hope that you are inferring that there should be a pay rise for First Officers to rectify the perceived remuneration imbalance? Surely you wouldn't be suggesting that someone else in the very same profession as you should be on the receiving end of a pay cut simply because of a pay inequality? 
Or are you advocating a race for the bottom from within the ranks at Q (in much the same way as other domestic operations)? - I really hope that isn't the case, because sure enough once one segment of the operation receives a pay cut, yours can't be too far away either..... 
Out of interest, how many 12 year S/O's are there at present....?
edit - I count 16 in bidbook - hardly worth causing a decrease in pay for the other 300+ S/O's. Maybe the 767 F/O's should push harder for a pay raise through the union
Or are you advocating a race for the bottom from within the ranks at Q (in much the same way as other domestic operations)? - I really hope that isn't the case, because sure enough once one segment of the operation receives a pay cut, yours can't be too far away either..... Out of interest, how many 12 year S/O's are there at present....?
edit - I count 16 in bidbook - hardly worth causing a decrease in pay for the other 300+ S/O's. Maybe the 767 F/O's should push harder for a pay raise through the union
Grandpa Aerotart
After the last 12 yrs of industry movement how the hell are there 16 fellows who have yet to be promoted?
Sounds like those 16 are the one's we always wondered about...like how the hell did he get into QF?
We all know one or two like that...it's a QF SOP.
Perhaps rather than give them a paycut they should be promoted...whether the like/want it or not...You'll never convince me these aren't guys who have just 'settled' in the jump seat happily being the highly paid paper pushers while unwilling/incapable of putting in the effort/passing the upgrade training.
Perhaps that's why AIPA is not terribly concerned about them.
Sounds like those 16 are the one's we always wondered about...like how the hell did he get into QF?
We all know one or two like that...it's a QF SOP.
Perhaps rather than give them a paycut they should be promoted...whether the like/want it or not...You'll never convince me these aren't guys who have just 'settled' in the jump seat happily being the highly paid paper pushers while unwilling/incapable of putting in the effort/passing the upgrade training.
Perhaps that's why AIPA is not terribly concerned about them.
Nunc est bibendum
Easy Johnny, I can guarantee you that Borg is NOT advocating a pay cut for anyone. I've not heard ANYONE advocate that on Qrewroom or AIPA. Further, anyone that believes that as the AIPA line is jumping at shadows that aren't there. I can guarantee you that the feeling from most of us on the 767 is that our pay rates are woefully under done when compared to the 744 S/O pay rates but that we should be lifting the 767 rates, not attacking the 744 S/O rates.
To address the actuall matter, fleet pay for S/Os makes sense- especially given the lack of 'choice' in the fleet type for S/Os as opposed to suckers like me who chose the $30K pay drop to be an F/O!
Considering the possible fleet moves for QF in the future, perhaps we'd be wise to lock in a 'pegged' rate now at B744 rates. That way whether we go for a combo of A380 and A340 (the latter should see pay rates less than the 744) or 777s (also less than the 744) or get rid of the 744s all together, we've 'fixed' in a solution to deal with a few of the eventualities. We'd be short sighted to NOT look at this. I'd hate for us to replace the 744s with 50+ 777s or A340s and have caused a pay drop for S/Os on that type whilst the S/Os on the 10 A380s get a pay rise! 
Imagine the blue if those A380 slots went to people off the street! 
To address the actuall matter, fleet pay for S/Os makes sense- especially given the lack of 'choice' in the fleet type for S/Os as opposed to suckers like me who chose the $30K pay drop to be an F/O!
Considering the possible fleet moves for QF in the future, perhaps we'd be wise to lock in a 'pegged' rate now at B744 rates. That way whether we go for a combo of A380 and A340 (the latter should see pay rates less than the 744) or 777s (also less than the 744) or get rid of the 744s all together, we've 'fixed' in a solution to deal with a few of the eventualities. We'd be short sighted to NOT look at this. I'd hate for us to replace the 744s with 50+ 777s or A340s and have caused a pay drop for S/Os on that type whilst the S/Os on the 10 A380s get a pay rise! Imagine the blue if those A380 slots went to people off the street!
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Maybe I am being naive here, but I don't believe Qf is trying to cut pay for SO's with the Fleet Pay issue for SO's. I think (Hope?!) they are trying to address the inequity in the hourly pay rate for SO's based on their day one lotto aircraft type. Now of course at the end of the day SO's will all earn differing amounts based upon how much they worked and overtime and the like. But it is hardly an equitable situation when SO's on the 400, 300, A330 and B767 all earn a different hourly rate - the job description is basically the same. Except of course , the SO's on the Classic who have to hold an additional endoresment and the additional Sim Checks which come with it on the Flt Engs Panel - I believe they get an hourly rate less than those on the 400 and also the A330 (but I'll stand corrected on that.)
So how is it solved?
Bring everyone up to the 400 hourly rates - keeps everyone happy (can't have that!)
Find a mid-range hourly rate = pay cut for 400 SO's not a good option for them.
Bring in new SO pay scale for new hires - A B-scale for SO's?!
Dunno
Yes the results from that EBA point will be interesting to see.
So how is it solved?
Bring everyone up to the 400 hourly rates - keeps everyone happy (can't have that!)
Find a mid-range hourly rate = pay cut for 400 SO's not a good option for them.
Bring in new SO pay scale for new hires - A B-scale for SO's?!
Dunno
Yes the results from that EBA point will be interesting to see.
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So Fellas,
Let me get this right, in the pecking order at the Rat as far as renumeration goes its a bit like this,
A380 Captain
B747-4 Captain
A330 Captain
B737 Captain
B767 Captain (Mainline)
B747-3 Captain
A380 F/O
B747-4 F/O
B767 Captain (Australian)
A330 F/O
A380 S/O
B747-4 S/O
B737 F/O
B767 F/O (Australian)
A320 Captain (Jetstar)
A320 F/O
If this is the case sounds like fleet pay would even things out.
Must be hard to justify paying S/O's more than Captains and Senior F/O's though!!!!
Bombs Away
Let me get this right, in the pecking order at the Rat as far as renumeration goes its a bit like this,
A380 Captain
B747-4 Captain
A330 Captain
B737 Captain
B767 Captain (Mainline)
B747-3 Captain
A380 F/O
B747-4 F/O
B767 Captain (Australian)
A330 F/O
A380 S/O
B747-4 S/O
B737 F/O
B767 F/O (Australian)
A320 Captain (Jetstar)
A320 F/O
If this is the case sounds like fleet pay would even things out.
Must be hard to justify paying S/O's more than Captains and Senior F/O's though!!!!
Bombs Away
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Keg took a $30K pay drop to be an FO. Isn't this the reason why there ARE 12 year SO's. There is simply little financial incentive or Reward to get promoted, plus due to the QF seniorority based bidding system these guys get to pick the eyes out of all the trips. And the Company wonders why FO's on the -400 don't jump at upgrades, the "system" provides little incentive, other than personal professional reward.
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Hey fellas - when you join any airline you are dealt a hand of cards. You can play them well or you can play them badly, BUT ................. you can never change'm ! 
