Dick Smith's Media Release for Monday 20 Sep 04
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Uncommon Sense
Relieved I am, I think.
My subconcious will struggle tonight with a fine dilemma, assuming I don't shut it down with a fine red or three.
Which is the lesser evil.
My closet socialist id fights with my Liberal background and breeding.
Hang on,Trev my next door neighbour psychiatrist just turned up with a cuppla reds, he is dead set Labour.............it's going to be an interesting night, our wives have fled to a movie and a meal, better order the thin crust and we'll have at it.
I will give you our verdict on the worries of the world in the morning, if I remember to write it down.
You know the drill, the next am, it was ALL so clear the night before.
Relieved I am, I think.
My subconcious will struggle tonight with a fine dilemma, assuming I don't shut it down with a fine red or three.
Which is the lesser evil.
My closet socialist id fights with my Liberal background and breeding.
Hang on,Trev my next door neighbour psychiatrist just turned up with a cuppla reds, he is dead set Labour.............it's going to be an interesting night, our wives have fled to a movie and a meal, better order the thin crust and we'll have at it.
I will give you our verdict on the worries of the world in the morning, if I remember to write it down.
You know the drill, the next am, it was ALL so clear the night before.
Just Binos
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Wish I could join you Gaunty.
Aviation is a conservative and self-interested industry, and I rarely bother getting involved in political discussions with its participants.
Over the last eight years I have taken faith in the fact that we are one of the lucky countries that gets the government we actually vote for. If it's not the one you want, well, be grateful that our system of checks and balances guarantees he's not going to be a murderous tyrant and that the will of the people prevails, no matter how uninformed that will may appear to be to those who disagree with the result.
This time I feel sad. Apart from the possibility of mass vote for Labor in Qld marginals, it appears apathy is going to rule. Scare tactics (how long are they going to keep bringing up 18% interests rates under Whitlam?) and a massively irresponsible spending spree designed purely to get Howard across the line as second-longest serving PM, together with the combined help of Murdoch and Packer, mean the Coalition will win tomorrow.
This is the 21st century version of the 1969 election. The true believers think it will happen, but it's still three years away. Unlike most people I would have no objection to a coalition government with Costello in charge, but the thought of this nasty blinkered little liar with not a hint of a vision or an agenda continuing to drag Australia's reputation down through sheer self-interest is almost too much to bear.
Somebody please tell me when he will surpass Hawke as second longest serving PM so I have some idea of how long we will have to put up with his self-serving lies.
Woomera, I could put in something about the execrable Anderson as an aviation-related matter to justify this post, but I ask that you let this run. After all the election result will probably be known in 24 hours. The other members of the Iraqi triumvirate have their long running threads on JB. We appear to be stuck with this as the closest thing. It would be a shame if such short term political commentary were banned when it will become irrelevant in a day's time.
As a disclaimer here, I declare on my mother's grave that I have never voted Labor in my life, but please let a minor miracle occur tomorrow.
Aviation is a conservative and self-interested industry, and I rarely bother getting involved in political discussions with its participants.
Over the last eight years I have taken faith in the fact that we are one of the lucky countries that gets the government we actually vote for. If it's not the one you want, well, be grateful that our system of checks and balances guarantees he's not going to be a murderous tyrant and that the will of the people prevails, no matter how uninformed that will may appear to be to those who disagree with the result.
This time I feel sad. Apart from the possibility of mass vote for Labor in Qld marginals, it appears apathy is going to rule. Scare tactics (how long are they going to keep bringing up 18% interests rates under Whitlam?) and a massively irresponsible spending spree designed purely to get Howard across the line as second-longest serving PM, together with the combined help of Murdoch and Packer, mean the Coalition will win tomorrow.
This is the 21st century version of the 1969 election. The true believers think it will happen, but it's still three years away. Unlike most people I would have no objection to a coalition government with Costello in charge, but the thought of this nasty blinkered little liar with not a hint of a vision or an agenda continuing to drag Australia's reputation down through sheer self-interest is almost too much to bear.
Somebody please tell me when he will surpass Hawke as second longest serving PM so I have some idea of how long we will have to put up with his self-serving lies.
Woomera, I could put in something about the execrable Anderson as an aviation-related matter to justify this post, but I ask that you let this run. After all the election result will probably be known in 24 hours. The other members of the Iraqi triumvirate have their long running threads on JB. We appear to be stuck with this as the closest thing. It would be a shame if such short term political commentary were banned when it will become irrelevant in a day's time.
As a disclaimer here, I declare on my mother's grave that I have never voted Labor in my life, but please let a minor miracle occur tomorrow.
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Like Ogsplash, I have not previously commented on Smith’s rantings, so as not to legitimize their credibility.
However, his latest effort regarding the QF incident really is completely over the top, and an outrageous and objectionable insult to all aviation professionals.
With this latest missive, Smith unequivocally reveals yet again, but this time even more clearly, his total amateurish, and abysmal ignorance of airline operations, air safety investigation, aviation systems, and aerospace technology.
And this is the man who ‘advises the Government’ on aviation.
With this kind of ‘advice’ it is easy to understand the reasons for the present NAS debacle.
Smith states:
‘Qantas were flying 1,600ft below the minimum safe altitude in darkness, playing a form of Russian roulette with the mountains which could have been 600ft higher than the altitude of the aircraft. Yes, I agree that at the time the Terrain Warning Unit alarm went off the ground was 2,500ft below. This was just luck. There could have been a mountain right in front of the aircraft’.
The statement would be laughable if it were not so pathetically, and tragically, ignorant.
This sensationalist rubbish comes from the ‘aviation authority’ the media so often turns to, no doubt in search of an instant headline.
To draw an analogy, if the Australian media wanted authoritative information on brain surgery, would they turn to a bloke who has taught himself a bit about first aid?
Luck had absolutely nothing to do with the QF incident. First class systems, good airmanship, and adherence to SOPs did. At no stage were the aircraft and its occupants in any danger.
His statements above show quite clearly that Smith has no knowledge whatsoever of the EGPWS system with which the QF B737 was equipped.
The aircraft’s EGPWS system contains a highly accurate terrain and obstacle database, and, using GPS-based references, it knows precisely where the aircraft is at all times in relation to terrain and obstacles. EGPWS warnings are activated accordingly, and appropriately.
The EGPWS system is perfectly aware if ‘there is a mountain in front of it’.
Russian Roulette? Blundering around at night? Luck? Only a fool would make such stupid claims.
Such statements are doubly tragic in their demonstrated ignorance of the real world of airline operations by a high profile adviser to the government. They are frightening evidence of the appalling level of quality of that advice. Worst of all, these kind of statements disseminate self-serving, destructive, scare-mongering and malevolent misinformation about aviation to the general public, the vast majority of whom have no specialist knowledge by means of which they could judge the veracity of such ridiculous, false and defamatory assertions.
As all professional and informed aviation people know, the EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) was introduced into commercial aviation largely as an outcome of the investigation of the AA B757 CFIT accident that occurred near Cali, in Colombia, on 20 December, 1995.
For its development of EGPWS, AlliedSignal Aerospace, Commercial Systems Division, won the Flight International Aerospace Industry Award in the Air Transport category in 1997.
Quoting from the citation:
"The EGPWS, which won US certification in 1996, integrates the latest advances in navigation and terrain-database technology, together with the traditional benefits of GPWS.
By doing this, the new system provides a full 60s advanced warning of hazardous terrain. A conventional GPWS may give pilots as little as 10s to take avoiding action. The system is also the first to allow pilots to select a visual display of hazardous terrain below and ahead of the aircraft - crucial in poor visibility or darkness".
The EGPWS system is designed to ensure that, if an aircraft should come into potential conflict with terrain or obstacles, due, for example, to data entry errors made by the crew, phased alerts and warnings are provided in ample time to ensure the complete safety of the aircraft. The ATSB report shows that this is exactly what happened in the present QF incident.
(More information on EGPWS can be found at: http://www.egpws.com/general_informa...n/features.htm)
Despite the ill-informed and sensationalist media reports stoked by Smith, the safe outcome of the QF incident was not luck; it demonstrated precisely what error tolerant systems in aviation are all about.
As for the absurd allegations regarding the ATSB, they are simply yet more hard evidence of the true nature and personal agenda of the writer. If there are any doubts about the objectivity, independence, courage and integrity of BASI/ATSB, have a careful read of the Systemic Investigation of the G Airspace Demonstration at: http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/sdi/gspace.cfm.
Previous evidence shows that Smith will never admit he was wrong, apologise, or issue any correcting statements on the QF incident, or any other aviation matter, regardless of the facts.
Ogsplash is spot on. It really is time Smith went as far away as possible, and let the true informed professionals in airline, government, military and general aviation organisations get on with the vital job of keeping Australian aviation safe, efficient, innovative and profitable.
However, his latest effort regarding the QF incident really is completely over the top, and an outrageous and objectionable insult to all aviation professionals.
With this latest missive, Smith unequivocally reveals yet again, but this time even more clearly, his total amateurish, and abysmal ignorance of airline operations, air safety investigation, aviation systems, and aerospace technology.
And this is the man who ‘advises the Government’ on aviation.
With this kind of ‘advice’ it is easy to understand the reasons for the present NAS debacle.
Smith states:
‘Qantas were flying 1,600ft below the minimum safe altitude in darkness, playing a form of Russian roulette with the mountains which could have been 600ft higher than the altitude of the aircraft. Yes, I agree that at the time the Terrain Warning Unit alarm went off the ground was 2,500ft below. This was just luck. There could have been a mountain right in front of the aircraft’.
The statement would be laughable if it were not so pathetically, and tragically, ignorant.
This sensationalist rubbish comes from the ‘aviation authority’ the media so often turns to, no doubt in search of an instant headline.
To draw an analogy, if the Australian media wanted authoritative information on brain surgery, would they turn to a bloke who has taught himself a bit about first aid?
Luck had absolutely nothing to do with the QF incident. First class systems, good airmanship, and adherence to SOPs did. At no stage were the aircraft and its occupants in any danger.
His statements above show quite clearly that Smith has no knowledge whatsoever of the EGPWS system with which the QF B737 was equipped.
The aircraft’s EGPWS system contains a highly accurate terrain and obstacle database, and, using GPS-based references, it knows precisely where the aircraft is at all times in relation to terrain and obstacles. EGPWS warnings are activated accordingly, and appropriately.
The EGPWS system is perfectly aware if ‘there is a mountain in front of it’.
Russian Roulette? Blundering around at night? Luck? Only a fool would make such stupid claims.
Such statements are doubly tragic in their demonstrated ignorance of the real world of airline operations by a high profile adviser to the government. They are frightening evidence of the appalling level of quality of that advice. Worst of all, these kind of statements disseminate self-serving, destructive, scare-mongering and malevolent misinformation about aviation to the general public, the vast majority of whom have no specialist knowledge by means of which they could judge the veracity of such ridiculous, false and defamatory assertions.
As all professional and informed aviation people know, the EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) was introduced into commercial aviation largely as an outcome of the investigation of the AA B757 CFIT accident that occurred near Cali, in Colombia, on 20 December, 1995.
For its development of EGPWS, AlliedSignal Aerospace, Commercial Systems Division, won the Flight International Aerospace Industry Award in the Air Transport category in 1997.
Quoting from the citation:
"The EGPWS, which won US certification in 1996, integrates the latest advances in navigation and terrain-database technology, together with the traditional benefits of GPWS.
By doing this, the new system provides a full 60s advanced warning of hazardous terrain. A conventional GPWS may give pilots as little as 10s to take avoiding action. The system is also the first to allow pilots to select a visual display of hazardous terrain below and ahead of the aircraft - crucial in poor visibility or darkness".
The EGPWS system is designed to ensure that, if an aircraft should come into potential conflict with terrain or obstacles, due, for example, to data entry errors made by the crew, phased alerts and warnings are provided in ample time to ensure the complete safety of the aircraft. The ATSB report shows that this is exactly what happened in the present QF incident.
(More information on EGPWS can be found at: http://www.egpws.com/general_informa...n/features.htm)
Despite the ill-informed and sensationalist media reports stoked by Smith, the safe outcome of the QF incident was not luck; it demonstrated precisely what error tolerant systems in aviation are all about.
As for the absurd allegations regarding the ATSB, they are simply yet more hard evidence of the true nature and personal agenda of the writer. If there are any doubts about the objectivity, independence, courage and integrity of BASI/ATSB, have a careful read of the Systemic Investigation of the G Airspace Demonstration at: http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/sdi/gspace.cfm.
Previous evidence shows that Smith will never admit he was wrong, apologise, or issue any correcting statements on the QF incident, or any other aviation matter, regardless of the facts.
Ogsplash is spot on. It really is time Smith went as far away as possible, and let the true informed professionals in airline, government, military and general aviation organisations get on with the vital job of keeping Australian aviation safe, efficient, innovative and profitable.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Talk about cutting to the quick 
As a young Baby Boomer - well actually, I tail end that classification..as do Binos and Gaunty - I was proud of the fact that I had been raised as a Liberal voter.
Bob Menzies... The Queen.....Winston Churchill......John Gorton....and *#&* all those commie, anti-Vietnam reds!!
Gough Whitlam was an airy-fairy artsy poonce, and Joh Bee-gel-kee was the bees knees!
Boy did HE show those SEQEB striking commies!!
But, then, Bobawke arrived on the scene.
And all of a sudden the charisma of Hawkie - with his visions of a glowing tomorrow. with fast rewards and gains for minimum input - far outshone the hard sloggings, and slowly gained achievements of the past decade or so under Malcolm Fraser, and his little tyrrannical "accountant", Lil Johhny (Howard).
I voted Labor, for the first time in my life....and it FELT RIGHT!!
Of course, I didn't know then, that Bobawke was a corrupt, con/deceitful, slimey little piece of toxic, malleable plasticine, willing to sell himself to the most influential bidder.
Rupert, at that THAT time, controlled Oz poli-ticks.
And it is NOW - almost 2 decades later - that we curiously find a Minister of the Commonwealth being drawn to a "romantic".
Dick ESPOUSES (loudly) much of what HE "believes" to be correct, but is unable to back it up with FACT!!
On the other hand, a lot of what might SEEM to be boring, repititious, FACT, is precisely that!!
Don't be fooled by the "gloss"!!
Just because it's "old", it doesn't mean it's past its "Use by" date!
In THIS case, the "tried - tested - PROVEN" slogan has shown that it SUPERIOR IN SAVING LIVES, to Dick's scatter-brained system!!
As a young Baby Boomer - well actually, I tail end that classification..as do Binos and Gaunty - I was proud of the fact that I had been raised as a Liberal voter.
Bob Menzies... The Queen.....Winston Churchill......John Gorton....and *#&* all those commie, anti-Vietnam reds!!
Gough Whitlam was an airy-fairy artsy poonce, and Joh Bee-gel-kee was the bees knees!
Boy did HE show those SEQEB striking commies!!
But, then, Bobawke arrived on the scene.
And all of a sudden the charisma of Hawkie - with his visions of a glowing tomorrow. with fast rewards and gains for minimum input - far outshone the hard sloggings, and slowly gained achievements of the past decade or so under Malcolm Fraser, and his little tyrrannical "accountant", Lil Johhny (Howard).
I voted Labor, for the first time in my life....and it FELT RIGHT!!
Of course, I didn't know then, that Bobawke was a corrupt, con/deceitful, slimey little piece of toxic, malleable plasticine, willing to sell himself to the most influential bidder.
Rupert, at that THAT time, controlled Oz poli-ticks.
And it is NOW - almost 2 decades later - that we curiously find a Minister of the Commonwealth being drawn to a "romantic".
Dick ESPOUSES (loudly) much of what HE "believes" to be correct, but is unable to back it up with FACT!!
On the other hand, a lot of what might SEEM to be boring, repititious, FACT, is precisely that!!
Don't be fooled by the "gloss"!!
Just because it's "old", it doesn't mean it's past its "Use by" date!
In THIS case, the "tried - tested - PROVEN" slogan has shown that it SUPERIOR IN SAVING LIVES, to Dick's scatter-brained system!!
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So does that mean Twohorse Town Airstrip, that has a GPS-NPA mainly because the RFDS fly there, will now become controlled airspace
My airspace design
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MR Contradiction
I have never claimed that the Qantas incident and the Benalla accident could have been avoided if the Australian airspace structure was designed to my specifications.
Both of these, both the accident that killed six people if we’d bought in the modern international airspace system, made it controlled, that wouldn’t have happened, six people would have been alive today.
Do Pilots make the Best Administrators
Bobster
Isn't Dick Smith a pilot too?
By your implied logic anyone who's been on the receiving end in a particular field, or earned money in a field, is automatically qualified for the job of administering it.
Isn't Dick Smith a pilot too?
By your implied logic anyone who's been on the receiving end in a particular field, or earned money in a field, is automatically qualified for the job of administering it.
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Lead Balloon
Reading earlier in this thread, and others, there is a call for professionals to get things running properly. Dick Smith is no aviation professional that I am aware of. Surely an ex TP would be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Just a thought.
Reading earlier in this thread, and others, there is a call for professionals to get things running properly. Dick Smith is no aviation professional that I am aware of. Surely an ex TP would be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Just a thought.
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Tunnan,
You surprise me.
It is clear that the QF 737 was in the wrong place at the wrong height, well below the LSA for the area.
You say “Luck had absolutely nothing to do with the QF incident”, as if you are saying the EGPWS was a primary terrain avoidance device.
Sadly, if you look at the human factors history, warnings are not always heeded, all too often they are treated as “false warnings”. And by the way, I am all too well aware of the potential shortcomings of the EGPWS, even though it is a great improvement on the older LRRA based systems.
Fortunately, in this case, despite all factors that got them where they were, the crew did finally react as trained. Other training should have prevented then being in the situation in the first place, but it didn’t.
When it’s the last hole in the Swiss cheese that didn’t line up, that too close for comfort.
What happened to several other slices of the cheese, positive surveillance from Melbourne, the radar on Mt.Majura doesn’t shut down when the Canberra TCU shuts, where was the TAATS terrain warning ?? During the slow hours, why does Canberra revert to G instead of E??.
Far too many things happened or didn’t happen here for any complacency.
Hermeias
You surprise me.
It is clear that the QF 737 was in the wrong place at the wrong height, well below the LSA for the area.
You say “Luck had absolutely nothing to do with the QF incident”, as if you are saying the EGPWS was a primary terrain avoidance device.
Sadly, if you look at the human factors history, warnings are not always heeded, all too often they are treated as “false warnings”. And by the way, I am all too well aware of the potential shortcomings of the EGPWS, even though it is a great improvement on the older LRRA based systems.
Fortunately, in this case, despite all factors that got them where they were, the crew did finally react as trained. Other training should have prevented then being in the situation in the first place, but it didn’t.
When it’s the last hole in the Swiss cheese that didn’t line up, that too close for comfort.
What happened to several other slices of the cheese, positive surveillance from Melbourne, the radar on Mt.Majura doesn’t shut down when the Canberra TCU shuts, where was the TAATS terrain warning ?? During the slow hours, why does Canberra revert to G instead of E??.
Far too many things happened or didn’t happen here for any complacency.
Hermeias
Grandpa Aerotart
Bobster once upon a time I was working in a really nice corporate jet job and we got a new (non flying)manager..ex Australian Army pilot one week retired from the army as a LtCol. He destroyed the operation in 6 months and was the most dishonest and incompetent individual I have ever come across in aviation. Previous/current qualifications as a pilot are no indication of skill in other areas...honesty and an ability to listen to qualified experts (as opposed to nutcases with a proven bad track record) work as part of a team and have no hidden adjendas is a good place to start. This chap from SA might be fantastic but I bet he won't be given the opportunity.
hermeias.
Why is it clear they were below MSA/MORA/LSA? I think I'd rather wait for the report myself. In a previous life we used to set off the GPWSs regularly...if visual/day we could just say "Noted visual" ...if not we climbed as per SOP. Why is it not deemed feasible that the QF crew were at LSA and got a spurious warning? They do happen you know...but at night you have no option than to react as per SOPs....as far as I understand QF crews don't have the option of ignoring GPWS warnings when visual. LSA/MORA/MSA give 1000' buffer to the highest terrain within a defined area at the altitudes they were flying at...it is not uncommon to get a 'hard' warning when approaching terrain at a higher rate than the black box can cope with but still never break a minimum safe altitude. As I understand it they recieved a warning 2500' above the obstacle....hardly worth reporting me thinks.
hermeias.
Why is it clear they were below MSA/MORA/LSA? I think I'd rather wait for the report myself. In a previous life we used to set off the GPWSs regularly...if visual/day we could just say "Noted visual" ...if not we climbed as per SOP. Why is it not deemed feasible that the QF crew were at LSA and got a spurious warning? They do happen you know...but at night you have no option than to react as per SOPs....as far as I understand QF crews don't have the option of ignoring GPWS warnings when visual. LSA/MORA/MSA give 1000' buffer to the highest terrain within a defined area at the altitudes they were flying at...it is not uncommon to get a 'hard' warning when approaching terrain at a higher rate than the black box can cope with but still never break a minimum safe altitude. As I understand it they recieved a warning 2500' above the obstacle....hardly worth reporting me thinks.
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Chuckles;
Seems like the Bobbsey twins have come out to play, I suppose it was inevitable now that the election is over.
I'm with you, there is much yet to be revealed on both the Benalla and QF reports, some of which might be very surprising, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Whatever the results may be after, nothing can justify Mr Smiths outrageous and irresponsible behaviour and statements regarding prior
Problem is we know that Smith and his mates are non pareil at conflating disparate issues with discursive polemic to have the sky fall in on demand, but the public sail along thinking they know of which they speak.
Seems like the Bobbsey twins have come out to play, I suppose it was inevitable now that the election is over.
I'm with you, there is much yet to be revealed on both the Benalla and QF reports, some of which might be very surprising, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Whatever the results may be after, nothing can justify Mr Smiths outrageous and irresponsible behaviour and statements regarding prior
Problem is we know that Smith and his mates are non pareil at conflating disparate issues with discursive polemic to have the sky fall in on demand, but the public sail along thinking they know of which they speak.
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Hello,
And if anyone is interested there is a short article on Flight International today, relating to this action by Mr D. Smith towards Air Services Australia...
Regards,
AIRWAY
And if anyone is interested there is a short article on Flight International today, relating to this action by Mr D. Smith towards Air Services Australia...
Regards,
AIRWAY
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And if anyone is interested there is a short article on Flight International today, relating to this action by Mr D. Smith towards Air Services Australia...
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When it’s the last hole in the Swiss cheese that didn’t line up, that too close for comfort.
I love talking about Dick's contribution, when quizzed on the matter in an international setting.
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UFB
No but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it wasn't true.
It would be nowabouts that the discovery process would have progressed a fair way along the put up or shut trail.
Smiths statements to others that he was prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this case is IMHO many orders of magnitude short of the real cost, try more than 6 figures.
That's a lot of money in an attempt to polish an ego with a very high probability of being found stark staring naked.
Settlement? for my money it should be him paying his piper and Airservices costs plus punitive damages and a formal public apology.
tobzalp
Dontcha hate that when you are preparing a post.......?
I am no lawyer but part of the "price" of withdrawal might be that as a result of that withdrawal Airservices have been denied the right to defend some very serious allegations and are therefore disadvantaged.
You can't, just for example take very visible private action against someone you think might be say a paedophile or in this case endangering the public, then having started the process just withdraw and walk away and not expect the aggrieved party to seek a remedy for relief. Especially when you hold a circus outside and inside their courts.
The courts take a very dim view of being used for such mischief.
You always have the right to be heard in a court but expect to get both barrels if you are found to have used the court for mischievous purpose without a reasonable foundation in fact. The responsibility for supervising that, as far as I understand it is the function of your solicitor.
They are officers of the court and bound to serve it. i.e. if you ask them to solicit a barrister to take an action to the courts on your behalf they must have a reasonably sustainable brief otherwise they will find it hard to find a respected barrister to take it on.
They both have an obligation to you to advise you of the likelihood of its success.
Their job and legal obligation is to find out how you might win and use their utmost skills to run your case, but if the defendent of a civil action or prosecutor, have say a cuppla hundred certifiably expert witnesses, public and private video and audio pointing at you holding the smoking gun, the best they can do is negotiate, what I think thay call in the US a "plea bargain". It's a bit back to front in a civil case but you know what I mean.
Remember they also have legal reputations to protect and have to live with the courts on a day to day basis.
If they find that they have not been provided with the full facts, the weight of which moves against their client, against which they must argue the case, and that is what the discovery process (you show me yours and I'll show you mine) is all about, they have the ability to decline to continue, if on their advice their client insists on doing so.
I think under certain circumstances they may even have to apply to the court to be released.
It's all in the balance and perspective and the principle of the court not being abused as a personal weapon. At least that is the way it's supposed to work.
Thankfully the judiciary remain the final arbiters of this process and are by the Separation of Powers enshrined in our constitution not subject to personal patronage or political pressure.
But I'm sure there are those who are actually expert on these matters who can correct on the finer points of the above.
No but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it wasn't true.
It would be nowabouts that the discovery process would have progressed a fair way along the put up or shut trail.
Smiths statements to others that he was prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this case is IMHO many orders of magnitude short of the real cost, try more than 6 figures.
That's a lot of money in an attempt to polish an ego with a very high probability of being found stark staring naked.
Settlement? for my money it should be him paying his piper and Airservices costs plus punitive damages and a formal public apology.
tobzalp
Dontcha hate that when you are preparing a post.......?
I am no lawyer but part of the "price" of withdrawal might be that as a result of that withdrawal Airservices have been denied the right to defend some very serious allegations and are therefore disadvantaged.
You can't, just for example take very visible private action against someone you think might be say a paedophile or in this case endangering the public, then having started the process just withdraw and walk away and not expect the aggrieved party to seek a remedy for relief. Especially when you hold a circus outside and inside their courts.
The courts take a very dim view of being used for such mischief.
You always have the right to be heard in a court but expect to get both barrels if you are found to have used the court for mischievous purpose without a reasonable foundation in fact. The responsibility for supervising that, as far as I understand it is the function of your solicitor.
They are officers of the court and bound to serve it. i.e. if you ask them to solicit a barrister to take an action to the courts on your behalf they must have a reasonably sustainable brief otherwise they will find it hard to find a respected barrister to take it on.
They both have an obligation to you to advise you of the likelihood of its success.
Their job and legal obligation is to find out how you might win and use their utmost skills to run your case, but if the defendent of a civil action or prosecutor, have say a cuppla hundred certifiably expert witnesses, public and private video and audio pointing at you holding the smoking gun, the best they can do is negotiate, what I think thay call in the US a "plea bargain". It's a bit back to front in a civil case but you know what I mean.
Remember they also have legal reputations to protect and have to live with the courts on a day to day basis.
If they find that they have not been provided with the full facts, the weight of which moves against their client, against which they must argue the case, and that is what the discovery process (you show me yours and I'll show you mine) is all about, they have the ability to decline to continue, if on their advice their client insists on doing so.
I think under certain circumstances they may even have to apply to the court to be released.
It's all in the balance and perspective and the principle of the court not being abused as a personal weapon. At least that is the way it's supposed to work.
Thankfully the judiciary remain the final arbiters of this process and are by the Separation of Powers enshrined in our constitution not subject to personal patronage or political pressure.
But I'm sure there are those who are actually expert on these matters who can correct on the finer points of the above.
Last edited by gaunty; 20th Oct 2004 at 03:28.
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What sort of out of court settlement?
1. Proceedings be dismissed.
2. No order as to costs.
Sources tell me the parties were in court today. You guys might be pretty close the the mark, UFB & gaunty
The overwhelming evidence supporting Airservices's case might have motivated a face-saving exercise.
The overwhelming evidence supporting Airservices's case might have motivated a face-saving exercise.
