Qantas Incident????????
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Anyone remember a certain incident involving a Qandom Captain, initials JP, who, being dyslexic (covered it up for many years) turned the wrong way at Canberra, and ALMOST claimed the lives of all on board?
Makes one wonder how all of that was brushed under the rug does it not?
Another HIGH ranking TAA / Australian Captain had the nick name of Captain Salt and Pepper. I'll let people ponder that one, but a hint is Port and Starboard...
Makes one wonder how all of that was brushed under the rug does it not?
Another HIGH ranking TAA / Australian Captain had the nick name of Captain Salt and Pepper. I'll let people ponder that one, but a hint is Port and Starboard...
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Yes it is amazing how the wheel turns hey swinefest. You red tails are just the same as the rest of us pal. We are ALL fallible. Thankfully most of us realise that!
These poor buggers flew all night from Perth and of course mistakes are more likely to be made at that time of the day after a duty as described. The biggest problem is trying to convince the manure for brains management/rostering people of the dangers of back of the clock flight with innadequate rest prior to or post flight. Guess it will take a hull loss before we see any REAL recognition of our inherrent problem.
These poor buggers flew all night from Perth and of course mistakes are more likely to be made at that time of the day after a duty as described. The biggest problem is trying to convince the manure for brains management/rostering people of the dangers of back of the clock flight with innadequate rest prior to or post flight. Guess it will take a hull loss before we see any REAL recognition of our inherrent problem.
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OK. So the technology worked. Thankfully.
I certainly know that if I was flying for god knows how many hours from Perth to CAN and ariving at prior to 5 am, I'm certainly unlikely to be operating at 100%.
Just another wake-up call. Sorry about the pun.
Must be that red blood in the veins, human I suppose.
No Radar terrain assistance there then ? Curious..?
I certainly know that if I was flying for god knows how many hours from Perth to CAN and ariving at prior to 5 am, I'm certainly unlikely to be operating at 100%.
Just another wake-up call. Sorry about the pun.
Must be that red blood in the veins, human I suppose.
No Radar terrain assistance there then ? Curious..?
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Plas Teek,
I know little about the incident but from other posts it sounds like they were holding while waiting for ATC to get out of bed.
I guess the RADAR services weren't on offer yet so it's up to the guys to sort themselves out.
Glad a tragedy didn't ensue.
I know little about the incident but from other posts it sounds like they were holding while waiting for ATC to get out of bed.
I guess the RADAR services weren't on offer yet so it's up to the guys to sort themselves out.
Glad a tragedy didn't ensue.
Nunc est bibendum
I don't know anything about the incident at all but I do find something interesting. In trying to ensure a greater level of safety (with having ATC available for their arrival), have the guys found themselves in an less safe situation by having to hold after they've been flying all night in an area of high terrain where minor errors can have big repercussions.
I guess it just goes to show that sometimes, directives that are supposed to make a situation 'safer' may inadvertantly be part of the error chain that leads to an accident or incident. If that was the case in this incident (and again, I know zero about it other than what I've read on this forum) then it is a good example again of the latent effects that each organisation has.
I guess it just goes to show that sometimes, directives that are supposed to make a situation 'safer' may inadvertantly be part of the error chain that leads to an accident or incident. If that was the case in this incident (and again, I know zero about it other than what I've read on this forum) then it is a good example again of the latent effects that each organisation has.
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Why hold at 5000' in the first place.
Don't fly the 737 but in the 767 I would be up at FL250 saving fuel and having a coffee.
Did many SYD - PER - SYD horrors and it was just an incedent waiting to happen. So the last thing I would want to be doing in holding down in the hills.
Don't fly the 737 but in the 767 I would be up at FL250 saving fuel and having a coffee.
Did many SYD - PER - SYD horrors and it was just an incedent waiting to happen. So the last thing I would want to be doing in holding down in the hills.
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Info: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...CBII01-100.PDF
BTW: I notice there appears to be no curfew at CB. So, is QF coy policy to NOT land without ATC on duty? Or is it port specific? i.e. they obvioulsy do it at YAYE - why not CB? And if so, why not reduce speed enroute if you get a stronger than forecast jetstream, or delay departure time PH if forecast to be a shorter flight time to avoid the holding all together?
Honest questions.
BTW: I notice there appears to be no curfew at CB. So, is QF coy policy to NOT land without ATC on duty? Or is it port specific? i.e. they obvioulsy do it at YAYE - why not CB? And if so, why not reduce speed enroute if you get a stronger than forecast jetstream, or delay departure time PH if forecast to be a shorter flight time to avoid the holding all together?
Honest questions.
Nunc est bibendum
US, I'm not on the 737 so I don't know the policy re CB. I also don't fly into any aerodromes where ATC opening hours are a problem so I can't help with that one. Where possible though, we're supposed to remain in CTA. Obviously we have Ops all over the place that don't remain in CTA but where we can remain, we do. Whether this is a directive for the 737 guys at CB I don't know! If a greater need exists (fire or something else) then they go on and shoot the approach!.
The guys probably did reduce speed enroute. We all tend to do that. As for 'delaying departure', the 'preference' from what I remember is to go on time and lose time en route. Apparently, passenger feedback indicates that they don't like hanging around! Besides that, that bugger Murphy would suggest that as soon as you delay the departure (which is difficult to do in PH anyway due to the heap of turn arounds at that time of night), you'll cop all sorts of crap trying to get away, less strong winds and subsequently run late!
The guys probably did reduce speed enroute. We all tend to do that. As for 'delaying departure', the 'preference' from what I remember is to go on time and lose time en route. Apparently, passenger feedback indicates that they don't like hanging around! Besides that, that bugger Murphy would suggest that as soon as you delay the departure (which is difficult to do in PH anyway due to the heap of turn arounds at that time of night), you'll cop all sorts of crap trying to get away, less strong winds and subsequently run late!
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At this late hour I haven't been able to access the right charts, but I expect that holding at A050 would have been outside CTA. I expect a controller would have had the aircraft on radar and been providing a radar service. The simple facts are that enroute ATC are limited in their knowledge of what aircraft are going to do on approaches to an aerodrome in G airspace. If the captain decides to extend the downwind leg in a hold, who is the controller to question the actions. We are not trained in the details of each type of approach for all the aerodromes in our "G" airspace and whether the pilot intends to do an NDB approach or an OmniDME or whatever, his broadcasts on air would let other pilots know what he was doing, give the controller some idea of what the pilot is intending and puts the intentions on tape for later use if necessary. A bit oversimplified, but G airspace means you do what you want. We are not required to know DAPS and in most cases couldn't tell you where the initial approach fix/point is for a particular type of approach so how would a controller be expected to comment on such things. The aircraft certainly don't get rerouted in the TAAATS system to indicate the ammended tracking for the various approaches(it can be for GPS waypoints, but the system doesn't have them all and the second point is sometimes missing from the system maps(so how accurate is the reroute anyway).
Unfortunately my response reminds me of another tragic issue being discussed at the moment and although I don't have anywhere near all the facts, it is scary that through lack of understanding of certain aspects of what we do, what our training covers, what our obligations are and how the system works, certain parties and probably the media are going to hang someone out to dry.
Unfortunately my response reminds me of another tragic issue being discussed at the moment and although I don't have anywhere near all the facts, it is scary that through lack of understanding of certain aspects of what we do, what our training covers, what our obligations are and how the system works, certain parties and probably the media are going to hang someone out to dry.
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It is worth noting that whilst the comments Roger Standby make are correct, he is referring specifically to the 'Enroute ATC' (Centre), whose airspace responsibility may overlay a myriad of aerodromes with procedures not neccessarily known to him.
The Approach ATC where provided is however required to know all the details of the various IAL including IAF, MSA, MApT, Sector Entries, RLSALT etc., and the approaches are shown on the Radar Maps. Holding patterns and approaches are also radar monitored (See Approach Monitoring Service - wherever it is written these days!)
I only make the disitinctiion here because it does not appear apparent in quite a lot of exchanges between pilots and controllers who can do exactly what.
Keg: Thanks for the reply. I get your point about not delaying the departure - passengers are a funny lot.
[Footnote: The same thing is seen in the winter at YBCG. ATC APP and TWR is provided 0545-2300 local. How much extra would it cost to run from 0530 in the winter months? Probably around $40 all up. Don't ever tell me that safety is paramount in such decisions.]
The Approach ATC where provided is however required to know all the details of the various IAL including IAF, MSA, MApT, Sector Entries, RLSALT etc., and the approaches are shown on the Radar Maps. Holding patterns and approaches are also radar monitored (See Approach Monitoring Service - wherever it is written these days!)
I only make the disitinctiion here because it does not appear apparent in quite a lot of exchanges between pilots and controllers who can do exactly what.
Keg: Thanks for the reply. I get your point about not delaying the departure - passengers are a funny lot.
[Footnote: The same thing is seen in the winter at YBCG. ATC APP and TWR is provided 0545-2300 local. How much extra would it cost to run from 0530 in the winter months? Probably around $40 all up. Don't ever tell me that safety is paramount in such decisions.]
Last edited by Uncommon Sense; 21st Sep 2004 at 01:45.
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5000' is in CTA, the 4500' step goes out to 20 DME. I think procedures designed at controlled airports are designed to stay within CTA - someone with more qualifications may be able to help here. Obviously not a consideration when airspace is deactivated though.
I have to agree with Bingle, why descend to 5000' and mix it with the weather and terrain? I always briefed we would hold at 6000 minimum if required due to the DME and speed limitations at 5000'. You can still capture the localiser and glideslope comfortably from 6000'.
I have to agree with Bingle, why descend to 5000' and mix it with the weather and terrain? I always briefed we would hold at 6000 minimum if required due to the DME and speed limitations at 5000'. You can still capture the localiser and glideslope comfortably from 6000'.
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Canberra Jepp chart 10-1: Blue boxed note on lower left side of chart reads:
"CTA/CTR Below 8500' within 30nm of Canberra active only during TWR hours. O/T MBZ procedures apply Gnd-5500' within 20nm of Canberra."
"CTA/CTR Below 8500' within 30nm of Canberra active only during TWR hours. O/T MBZ procedures apply Gnd-5500' within 20nm of Canberra."
Channel 10 have just reported it as "breaking news" even though the event happened a month ago. They have been over melodramatic on a number of news items lately and it appears that management has given them instructions to sensationalise "news" to the max. Makes watching their news shows a bit hard to bear.
Just Binos
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I have no knowledge whatsoever of Ch 10's handling of this or any other story recently. What I do know is that the Channel 10 news is a national disgrace, not just for its treatment of aviation.
Sandra Sully has had all the requisite surgical bits done to make her look acceptable, and she can now appear in low cut dresses at public exhibitions, but she is still a bimbo reading a news bulletin whose director should be shot. Populist crap of the highest (lowest?) order, and a prime example of why the ABC must survive.
Channel 10 is the Picture magazine of news.
Sandra Sully has had all the requisite surgical bits done to make her look acceptable, and she can now appear in low cut dresses at public exhibitions, but she is still a bimbo reading a news bulletin whose director should be shot. Populist crap of the highest (lowest?) order, and a prime example of why the ABC must survive.
Channel 10 is the Picture magazine of news.
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A Bit of the Topography and Appch Detail Pliz
Does anyone have a link to a Canberra ILS Approach Plate that might show the dimensions of the problem and a few facts?
Obviously a tricky trap that one could repeat just about anywhere that the dimensions (and holding sides) of a holding pattern are terrain critical. You don't have to be fatigued to punch in an error - although it helps.
Might turn out to be a good learning experience.
Obviously a tricky trap that one could repeat just about anywhere that the dimensions (and holding sides) of a holding pattern are terrain critical. You don't have to be fatigued to punch in an error - although it helps.
Might turn out to be a good learning experience.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Okay, so in hindsight NONE of us would ever have done this.
Why don't all of you aces form your own "Failsafe Airlines"!!
I get MORE than just a little bit p!ssed off with hearing about why I wouldn't have fallen for what is obviously one of those "links in the chain"!!!
The INSECURITY some of you display here, in the pretexts of "professionalism", is unbelievable.
You seem to think yourselves more infallable than Jehova, AND J.C AND Mohammad, AND Buddha combined!!
Why don't all of you aces form your own "Failsafe Airlines"!!
I get MORE than just a little bit p!ssed off with hearing about why I wouldn't have fallen for what is obviously one of those "links in the chain"!!!
The INSECURITY some of you display here, in the pretexts of "professionalism", is unbelievable.
You seem to think yourselves more infallable than Jehova, AND J.C AND Mohammad, AND Buddha combined!!
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Air inquiry over mountain alarm
By Steve Creedy
September 22, 2004
THE Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating an early-morning incident over Canberra in which a Qantas aircraft flew close enough to a mountain to trigger a ground proximity warning.
The ATSB confirmed last night it was investigating an incident believed to have involved a Qantas 737 arriving from Perth about two weeks ago. But it would not elaborate ahead of a preliminary report expected to be released this week.
An ATSB spokesman said a notice on a professional pilots' website claiming the aircraft was forced into an emergency climb after it came within 150ft, or two seconds, of a mountain, "contained inaccuracies".
Other information on the website suggested the pilots involved reacted to the alarm using standard operating procedures.
"Both the airline and pilots involved are co-operating fully with the investigation, but until the ATSB has completed its investigation it's inappropriate to draw any conclusions based on anecdotal comments," the spokesman said.
The head of flight operations at Qantas, Chris Manning, said: "The information on the website is factually incorrect and the ATSB is investigating."
Mr Manning said the airline had promptly reported the incident to the ATSB.
The investigation comes as airspace activist Dick Smith ramped up his campaign to thwart Airservices Australia plans to roll back controversial airspace reforms.
A legal challenge by Mr Smith aimed at stopping the reversal will be heard in the Federal Court on November 1. Mr Smith claims Airservices did not take into account expert reports questioning the methodology used to support the reversal decision or concerns raised by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. He is also claiming the decision to introduce controlled "Class C" airspace without radar is unsafe.
The Australian
Source: http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10839567%255E421,00.html
By Steve Creedy
September 22, 2004
THE Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating an early-morning incident over Canberra in which a Qantas aircraft flew close enough to a mountain to trigger a ground proximity warning.
The ATSB confirmed last night it was investigating an incident believed to have involved a Qantas 737 arriving from Perth about two weeks ago. But it would not elaborate ahead of a preliminary report expected to be released this week.
An ATSB spokesman said a notice on a professional pilots' website claiming the aircraft was forced into an emergency climb after it came within 150ft, or two seconds, of a mountain, "contained inaccuracies".
Other information on the website suggested the pilots involved reacted to the alarm using standard operating procedures.
"Both the airline and pilots involved are co-operating fully with the investigation, but until the ATSB has completed its investigation it's inappropriate to draw any conclusions based on anecdotal comments," the spokesman said.
The head of flight operations at Qantas, Chris Manning, said: "The information on the website is factually incorrect and the ATSB is investigating."
Mr Manning said the airline had promptly reported the incident to the ATSB.
The investigation comes as airspace activist Dick Smith ramped up his campaign to thwart Airservices Australia plans to roll back controversial airspace reforms.
A legal challenge by Mr Smith aimed at stopping the reversal will be heard in the Federal Court on November 1. Mr Smith claims Airservices did not take into account expert reports questioning the methodology used to support the reversal decision or concerns raised by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. He is also claiming the decision to introduce controlled "Class C" airspace without radar is unsafe.
The Australian
Source: http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10839567%255E421,00.html
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Front page of today's Canberra Times as well - tho' not on/in the Internet version.
The ubiquitous Dick shoves his oar in at the end of the article. PpRUNe gets a mention as a "pilot's Internet site".
Just dropped the Domette at CBR and heard on local ABC en route a spokesman for ATSB getting all bitter that these cases get a run on anonymous fora before they've had a chance to finalise a report.
The ubiquitous Dick shoves his oar in at the end of the article. PpRUNe gets a mention as a "pilot's Internet site".
Just dropped the Domette at CBR and heard on local ABC en route a spokesman for ATSB getting all bitter that these cases get a run on anonymous fora before they've had a chance to finalise a report.
Yeah, well done everybody. Nice heads up effort to the media.
Judge, jury and executioner before the report comes out...again. Look at the Benalla accident and look at this case.
Woomeri, this sort of idle speculation and rumour mongering in the middle of an investigation does nothing to help anyone - least of all the reputation of this site. I would be interested to see the position PPRuNE would be left in should these types of posts be shown to have any influence on the outcome of an investigation and the procedural fairness of any ensuing criminal trial. The words "contempt of...." spring to mind.
I know this is a rumour network, but "rumours" and speculation relating to incidents or accidents under ungoing investigation are frankly inappropriate and utterly unprofessional.
Judge, jury and executioner before the report comes out...again. Look at the Benalla accident and look at this case.
Woomeri, this sort of idle speculation and rumour mongering in the middle of an investigation does nothing to help anyone - least of all the reputation of this site. I would be interested to see the position PPRuNE would be left in should these types of posts be shown to have any influence on the outcome of an investigation and the procedural fairness of any ensuing criminal trial. The words "contempt of...." spring to mind.
I know this is a rumour network, but "rumours" and speculation relating to incidents or accidents under ungoing investigation are frankly inappropriate and utterly unprofessional.
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 21st Sep 2004 at 22:51.