Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
Just as a counterpoint.
The Virgin and QF pilot recruitment process are vastly different, with the QF process full of hoop jumping.
On the basis of some of the above comments, a reasonable argument could be made to say that the QF recruitment process is unnecessary, doesn't relate to the actual job and is discriminatory.
Each company has its target group of people to fill a particular role. How they screen people to fill those roles is their business I would have thought.
The Virgin and QF pilot recruitment process are vastly different, with the QF process full of hoop jumping.
On the basis of some of the above comments, a reasonable argument could be made to say that the QF recruitment process is unnecessary, doesn't relate to the actual job and is discriminatory.
Each company has its target group of people to fill a particular role. How they screen people to fill those roles is their business I would have thought.
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I havent yet observed one over 30.
Thought not.
Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately.
I know if i got to choose between a bunch of hot guys and experienced male CC (goodlooking or not) who could competently get my little self out of a burning a/c safely, I know which I'd pick! My 'visual enjoyment' of the flight may be less, but then most people don't go on flights to perve on CC.....
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Sinala, Caught up with a mate at VB in the hotel last time I was in Oz. I met a bunch of VB girls in the bar. I was only impressed by how vapid they were.
adj.
Lacking liveliness, animation, or interest; dull: vapid conversation.
Lacking taste, zest, or flavor; flat: vapid beer.
Is that your new word for today? I like it...
Today's intellectual debate stimulation brought to you by the letter V
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I know one of these ladies. I was recently involved in a federal court case where we diverted because of an unrully pax. I would much rather someone like Carol or one of her colleagues than a bimbo from DJ dealing with this scumbag.
You blokes should think a little bit more about this. It could be your wife daughter or even yourself. What if they want grey haired captains?
You blokes should think a little bit more about this. It could be your wife daughter or even yourself. What if they want grey haired captains?
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bimbo from DJ
The point is that age/weight/height are not the determining factors in the way a person asserts themself in a verbal confrontational situation. A physical situation, well thats different - most flight attendants are in general female, in general fairly petite. No offence or disrespect to Carol, but on what basis do you build your opinion that age=competency? From my personal experiences, this is fundamentally untrue...
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Hmm...vapid was probably not the word I was looking for given the dictionary definition of the word. Airheaded would be a closer approximation. These girls were certainly not unlively.
..Or perhaps not, Skysista. Make up your own mind.
Some snippets of conversation:
VB FA 1: "I've been in 3 commercials"
VB 2: "Well, I've been in 5"
VB 3: "Well, I've been in 6 AND I was an extra on ____"
Later..
VB 2: "Me and my husband live next door to this total loser and bogan. The other night my husband punched him out. It was Friday, not like it was late, only about 11pm and this guy complained that my husband was making too much noise doing burnouts in his ute, I mean, what a total loser.."
Really?..Who is the Bogan?
VB 1: " I was with Paris Hilton on the dance floor and she was really coked and then we PASHED. Everone was looking at us. It was so cool, she really came on to me but I let her down gently because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, not like guys. I really like it when a guy comes on to me and I can tell him to 'GO GET F#$%^YED. I love it; yell it right in their face. Makes me feel really powerful.."
Later: VB 1: "I love it when I see guys fight. It just is so much of a turn on. Especially when they one is a guy I am with. If a guy I am with wins, I give him the hottest sex afterwards.."
Another Bogan, evidently..and:
VB 3: "Ralph, are you gay"
Me: "No. Why?'
VB 3: "Because you haven't come on to me"
Me: "Should I?"
VB 3: "No, It's just that most guys try to come on to me, unless they're gay"..
..Or just not interested.
The saddest thing is that the above is not invention.
At all other Airlines that I worked for, some cabin crew may have been a bit slow or engaged in the occasional binge but they all had a modicum of that difficult to define quantity, let's just call it 'Class'. These 3 were totally devoid of this quality.
What I have come to realize from this encounter is the demise of the dignity that was previously inherent in the airline industry. Historically, the people employed by airlines were generally seen to be a cut above most in the general community. With the advent of Virgin Blue, I now see how this has changed. What we have witnessed is a cultural shift in the recruitment practices of the industry.
It is my most profound hope that this is a manifestation that remains limited ti Virgin Blue. It is for these reasons that Carol would probably not be happy at DJ.
..Or perhaps not, Skysista. Make up your own mind.
Some snippets of conversation:
VB FA 1: "I've been in 3 commercials"
VB 2: "Well, I've been in 5"
VB 3: "Well, I've been in 6 AND I was an extra on ____"
Later..
VB 2: "Me and my husband live next door to this total loser and bogan. The other night my husband punched him out. It was Friday, not like it was late, only about 11pm and this guy complained that my husband was making too much noise doing burnouts in his ute, I mean, what a total loser.."
Really?..Who is the Bogan?
VB 1: " I was with Paris Hilton on the dance floor and she was really coked and then we PASHED. Everone was looking at us. It was so cool, she really came on to me but I let her down gently because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, not like guys. I really like it when a guy comes on to me and I can tell him to 'GO GET F#$%^YED. I love it; yell it right in their face. Makes me feel really powerful.."
Later: VB 1: "I love it when I see guys fight. It just is so much of a turn on. Especially when they one is a guy I am with. If a guy I am with wins, I give him the hottest sex afterwards.."
Another Bogan, evidently..and:
VB 3: "Ralph, are you gay"
Me: "No. Why?'
VB 3: "Because you haven't come on to me"
Me: "Should I?"
VB 3: "No, It's just that most guys try to come on to me, unless they're gay"..
..Or just not interested.
The saddest thing is that the above is not invention.
At all other Airlines that I worked for, some cabin crew may have been a bit slow or engaged in the occasional binge but they all had a modicum of that difficult to define quantity, let's just call it 'Class'. These 3 were totally devoid of this quality.
What I have come to realize from this encounter is the demise of the dignity that was previously inherent in the airline industry. Historically, the people employed by airlines were generally seen to be a cut above most in the general community. With the advent of Virgin Blue, I now see how this has changed. What we have witnessed is a cultural shift in the recruitment practices of the industry.
It is my most profound hope that this is a manifestation that remains limited ti Virgin Blue. It is for these reasons that Carol would probably not be happy at DJ.
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Ralph
I have to say that I am 100% impressed with your powers of recall... its amazing that you can remember such detail from these conversations, when you were catching up "with your mate last time you were in oz", in a no doubt noisy bar situation..
Nice try pal, perhaps next time a little less detail will make you more believable...
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Sista.
There are two key aspects to relationships between cockpit crew and FAs. That is whether they would be good to look at and whether they are good to work with. The two can be interrelated.
And you query my talents with guessing one's age? Not particularly hard with VB FAs given that 30 really is ancient.
Angus, I'd suggest there are far more of those than there are VB FAs.
There are two key aspects to relationships between cockpit crew and FAs. That is whether they would be good to look at and whether they are good to work with. The two can be interrelated.
And you query my talents with guessing one's age? Not particularly hard with VB FAs given that 30 really is ancient.
Angus, I'd suggest there are far more of those than there are VB FAs.
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TIMMEE -
That's hilarious!
sinala -
Don't tell me Ralph was lying... After reading the conversation he was involved in I was all ready to apply at DJ! Jetstar girls talk about their rich husbands, Ansett, marriage, Ansett, babies, Ansett and using staff travel... BORING!
Ralph -
You talk of cabin crew historically being a cut above the norm... Yeh. It's these same ones who also have snobby elitest attitudes who take 'cut above' too far by being 'above' their customers. (Although there is ALWAYS lovely exceptions!) An attitude that is VERY rare at DJ but can be directly correlated to some of Australia's larger airlines, of both now and yesteryear. I think it's a great thing when customers are not too scared to approach the cabin crew. Seems crazy I know but DJ might just be on to something.
I think the Impulse/Jetstar recruitment team would make Carol happy. For such a young company we have stack of old boilers (male and female), who can't sing and are not all that pretty. AND they used to work for Ansett! No one eyed Aboriginal lesbians though, TIMMEE... Bring 'em on, I say!
That's hilarious!
sinala -
Don't tell me Ralph was lying... After reading the conversation he was involved in I was all ready to apply at DJ! Jetstar girls talk about their rich husbands, Ansett, marriage, Ansett, babies, Ansett and using staff travel... BORING!
Ralph -
You talk of cabin crew historically being a cut above the norm... Yeh. It's these same ones who also have snobby elitest attitudes who take 'cut above' too far by being 'above' their customers. (Although there is ALWAYS lovely exceptions!) An attitude that is VERY rare at DJ but can be directly correlated to some of Australia's larger airlines, of both now and yesteryear. I think it's a great thing when customers are not too scared to approach the cabin crew. Seems crazy I know but DJ might just be on to something.
I think the Impulse/Jetstar recruitment team would make Carol happy. For such a young company we have stack of old boilers (male and female), who can't sing and are not all that pretty. AND they used to work for Ansett!
No one eyed Aboriginal lesbians though, TIMMEE... Bring 'em on, I say!
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Fri "The Australian"
Experience 'gives a flying start'
By Kate Mackenzie and Steve Creedy
August 20, 2004
WHEN Lynne Collins began working for Qantas in 1965, the job ended when you turned 35 or got married - whichever came first.
An anti-discrimination hearing continuing in Brisbane today has heard claims the Virgin Blue airline has made a return of sorts to bygone days by hiring predominantly young flight attendants.
Eight former Ansett flight attendants aged between 36 and 56 when they unsuccessfully applied for jobs at Virgin Blue in 2001 told the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board heard this week only four of the airline's 803 cabin crew were aged over 35.
But Virgin Blue is vigorously defending the claim, and an earlier hearing found the airline had rejected a higher proportion of applicants in the 18 to 22 age group than those aged 43 to 47.
Ms Collins, 59, has worked as a Qantas flight attendant for 37 years and is the airline's fifth most experienced flight attendant worldwide.
Apart from a two-year stint in Papua New Guinea, she has always worked on Australian domestic routes as a flight attendant and on-board customer service manager.
There is no substitute for experience when it comes to dealing effectively with people who are frightened or aggressive, Ms Collins says.
"You get better at defusing situations," she said. "You learn to read people as time goes by."
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said yesterday his airline did not discriminate on the basis of age.
"I think we portray an image of sheer professionalism and also a company that supports all people - age, gender, you name it," Mr Dixon said.
"I just think that's the image that Qantas has always had. What image Virgin wants to build ... is their issue, not ours."
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia's Darryl Watkins said his organisation usually dealt with people currently in jobs, but ex-flight attendants should have an advantage in the market.
"We would argue regardless of age, that airlines should employ ex-flight attendants anyway because of their experience," Mr Watkins said.
More recent Qantas recruits such as Naomi Pickard, 27, who has been with the airline for 6 1/2 years, said experience was something the rookies appreciated in their peers.
Ms Pickard said new attendants at Qantas flew with a mentor for their first month in the air, which proved useful for learning how to deal with delicate situations such as passengers who were frightened of flying.
"Things like learning to anticipate people's needs - the longer you do it the more confident you become," Ms Pickard said.
==========================================
Experience 'gives a flying start'
By Kate Mackenzie and Steve Creedy
August 20, 2004
WHEN Lynne Collins began working for Qantas in 1965, the job ended when you turned 35 or got married - whichever came first.
An anti-discrimination hearing continuing in Brisbane today has heard claims the Virgin Blue airline has made a return of sorts to bygone days by hiring predominantly young flight attendants.
Eight former Ansett flight attendants aged between 36 and 56 when they unsuccessfully applied for jobs at Virgin Blue in 2001 told the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board heard this week only four of the airline's 803 cabin crew were aged over 35.
But Virgin Blue is vigorously defending the claim, and an earlier hearing found the airline had rejected a higher proportion of applicants in the 18 to 22 age group than those aged 43 to 47.
Ms Collins, 59, has worked as a Qantas flight attendant for 37 years and is the airline's fifth most experienced flight attendant worldwide.
Apart from a two-year stint in Papua New Guinea, she has always worked on Australian domestic routes as a flight attendant and on-board customer service manager.
There is no substitute for experience when it comes to dealing effectively with people who are frightened or aggressive, Ms Collins says.
"You get better at defusing situations," she said. "You learn to read people as time goes by."
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said yesterday his airline did not discriminate on the basis of age.
"I think we portray an image of sheer professionalism and also a company that supports all people - age, gender, you name it," Mr Dixon said.
"I just think that's the image that Qantas has always had. What image Virgin wants to build ... is their issue, not ours."
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia's Darryl Watkins said his organisation usually dealt with people currently in jobs, but ex-flight attendants should have an advantage in the market.
"We would argue regardless of age, that airlines should employ ex-flight attendants anyway because of their experience," Mr Watkins said.
More recent Qantas recruits such as Naomi Pickard, 27, who has been with the airline for 6 1/2 years, said experience was something the rookies appreciated in their peers.
Ms Pickard said new attendants at Qantas flew with a mentor for their first month in the air, which proved useful for learning how to deal with delicate situations such as passengers who were frightened of flying.
"Things like learning to anticipate people's needs - the longer you do it the more confident you become," Ms Pickard said.
==========================================
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Adding some more fuel
Hey guys, I'm a tall green eyed blond in my mid thirties! 5000 hours total time, heavy turbine time, loads PIC and CANT get a job flying for Virgin or ANY airline here. Shouldn't I have a chip on my shoulder??Gotta leave the country now!
PS I would even sing and dance!!!
PS I would even sing and dance!!!
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It was Yumour, kids - Yumour... 
I am embarrassed to be a member of the FAAA when they say stuff like just because you are a FA once you should be employed on that basis alone... What utter garbage!
Experience comes with doing the time and there is nothing you can really do to fast track that... But you cannot suggest DJ cabin crew are inferior to anyone because of their average age. Let Virgin employ who they want to employ. Why should they employ people who are quite possibly not going to embrace the company culture?
If I went for a job at DJ I would sing and dance because they told me to. Not expect a job based on my experience alone. (Though I certainly wouldn't rely solely on my singing skills either!)
If you think that ex-flyers (not of any airline necessarily) deserve a job based solely on their experience then ask yourself who might have the bigger one... Chip that is!
For better or for worse (we could argue all day!) there's a big cultural shift happening in airlines throughout the world. Whilst experience is definately an asset and an advantage you just can't preech it anymore. Times are changing.
I am embarrassed to be a member of the FAAA when they say stuff like just because you are a FA once you should be employed on that basis alone... What utter garbage!
Experience comes with doing the time and there is nothing you can really do to fast track that... But you cannot suggest DJ cabin crew are inferior to anyone because of their average age. Let Virgin employ who they want to employ. Why should they employ people who are quite possibly not going to embrace the company culture?
If I went for a job at DJ I would sing and dance because they told me to. Not expect a job based on my experience alone. (Though I certainly wouldn't rely solely on my singing skills either!)
If you think that ex-flyers (not of any airline necessarily) deserve a job based solely on their experience then ask yourself who might have the bigger one... Chip that is!
For better or for worse (we could argue all day!) there's a big cultural shift happening in airlines throughout the world. Whilst experience is definately an asset and an advantage you just can't preech it anymore. Times are changing.
Last edited by ditzyboy; 20th Aug 2004 at 00:50.
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If you think that ex-flyers (not of any airline necessarily) deserve a job based solely on their experience then ask yourself who might have the bigger one... Chip that is!
For better or for worse (we could argue all day!) there's a big cultural shift happening in airlines throughout the world. Whilst experience is definately an asset and an advantage you just can't preech it anymore. Times are changing.
For better or for worse (we could argue all day!) there's a big cultural shift happening in airlines throughout the world. Whilst experience is definately an asset and an advantage you just can't preech it anymore. Times are changing.
Something to think about?? That said though, I am not belittling the value of age or experience, but ultimately it comes down to a person-to-person analysis I guess!