Some truth about the ML incident
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Mr Kerans, I don't think a ex RAAF transport pilot carries any more qualification than most others. Some of those guys historically have more than their fair share of incidents/accidents. I also have nearly 15000 hours here and around the world, but I don't believe that gives me any more qualification than your advisors you mentioned. The simple fact remains this new system (NAS) is causing plenty of grief among professionals who operate in this airspace for a living. It's not a weekend hobby or a past time which is a bit of fun. It is the environment in which we earn our livelihood. The relevance of that being that the people who operate in this airspace for a living were by and large totally ignored by the beauracrats who promulgated the changes. This fact on it's own completely nulifies any argument of industry consultation.
Yes things may have needed a bit of tweaking, but to railroad the entire process by stealth without debate or even a hint of constructive criticism is in anyones terms farcical. I stand to be corrected in the fullness of time but I very much doubt that will happen with the current procedures in place.
Yes things may have needed a bit of tweaking, but to railroad the entire process by stealth without debate or even a hint of constructive criticism is in anyones terms farcical. I stand to be corrected in the fullness of time but I very much doubt that will happen with the current procedures in place.
Last edited by Sperm Bank; 10th Dec 2003 at 17:33.
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So you fibbed about having the FOI transcripts Snarek. You are the one making up stories. I have made a statement which is true, I have talked to the DJ pilots in question (although some don't believe this, not that I care) but unlike you am not willing to put one side of the story I have heard without hearing all sides. I will wait for the final reports. Why did you edit that out of your original post? I actually did try to see your point during the whole NAS debate but when you start making stuff up your credibility goes out the window.
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What do you means starting to lose credibility. He and his ilk never had any credibility in the world that actually exists beyond the kinda that is the AOPA board room. I have seen nothing but information and position that destroys all that we have left in Australian Aviation. I am still amazed that the government gives that organisation any credence. I must suppose however that this is a case of 'He who has the gold makes the rules'.
I sincerely hope that come the revolution, these pricks get made to pay for their blatant destruction of aviation safety in this country. Unfortunately with a goon like Latham at the helm of the Labor party, this review and any schmick of an idea in toto will be some time coming.
Perhaps I should run for my local seat.
I sincerely hope that come the revolution, these pricks get made to pay for their blatant destruction of aviation safety in this country. Unfortunately with a goon like Latham at the helm of the Labor party, this review and any schmick of an idea in toto will be some time coming.
Perhaps I should run for my local seat.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Pesawat terbang, great handle hombre, I was going to use that as an alternative user name. 
I'll have to use something like, Pesawat Udara now. 
Apakah anda berbahasa Indonesia?.
I'll have to use something like, Pesawat Udara now. Apakah anda berbahasa Indonesia?.
Sorry to diverge from the topic at hand.....
I was in bed ,fighting off the missus, trying to read an old copy of Aus Aviation and found an article regarding an ATC strike about 18 months ago over pay and conditions negotiations for ATC staff. I was just curious why ATC staff did not go on strike for the NAS implementation on 27/11/03. I know they all feel very passionate about this topic as we all do. I am not having a go at them ......if my company had asked me to stop work for the NAS I would have. Just curious thats all.......
Capt Stoobing.
Once again sorry to diverge from the current topic.
I was in bed ,fighting off the missus, trying to read an old copy of Aus Aviation and found an article regarding an ATC strike about 18 months ago over pay and conditions negotiations for ATC staff. I was just curious why ATC staff did not go on strike for the NAS implementation on 27/11/03. I know they all feel very passionate about this topic as we all do. I am not having a go at them ......if my company had asked me to stop work for the NAS I would have. Just curious thats all.......
Capt Stoobing.
Once again sorry to diverge from the current topic.
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I will rely upon Here to Help's translation in moderating your post.
If his translation is correct, had you posted the same post in English you may well have faced a cooling off period in the sin bin.
This forum is in English.
Woomera
If his translation is correct, had you posted the same post in English you may well have faced a cooling off period in the sin bin.
This forum is in English.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 11th Dec 2003 at 11:29.
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Anyone from Civilair
Can anyone tell me why Civilair have not released a media release stating that Night VFR actually happens in Australia and that the statement was incorrect about VFR not flying at night. And while you are at it, maybe you could also retract the statement about the VFR aircraft getting in the way of the SAAB into Canberra.
Are you honest enough to come clean about that?
TBT
Can anyone tell me why Civilair have not released a media release stating that Night VFR actually happens in Australia and that the statement was incorrect about VFR not flying at night. And while you are at it, maybe you could also retract the statement about the VFR aircraft getting in the way of the SAAB into Canberra.
Are you honest enough to come clean about that?
TBT
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Capt Stoobing
If anyone should be striking it should be the pilots. When this all does go wrong unless they hit right over the top of brisbane centre, I will be not dead. But then again, if pilots don't see this as dangerous then fine, ok, whatever, enjoy. I for one have given up caring. Non of the procedures that I can aprove will be approved by me so the rest is up to you guys.
If anyone should be striking it should be the pilots. When this all does go wrong unless they hit right over the top of brisbane centre, I will be not dead. But then again, if pilots don't see this as dangerous then fine, ok, whatever, enjoy. I for one have given up caring. Non of the procedures that I can aprove will be approved by me so the rest is up to you guys.
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Selamat sore PT,
Kalau anda mau berbicara darihal orang yang bukan berbicara bahasa Indonesia, anda harus berbicara dalam Bahasa Inggris.
...and if you can't understand my rusty Indonesian, and also for the benefit of others so that I am not seen as rude, I'll translate:
"Good day PT, if you want to talk about people who cannot speak Indonesian, you should talk in English."
Saying that you think one forum member is a big liar, and that another forum member is very rude and a clown, in another language, in a public forum is pretty bad form. I guess if you came out and said it in English you would expect to be censured by the moderator?
Closer to the topic - but not that close: Captain Stoobing, I believe that any ATC strike action would have been deemed "unprotected industrial action" and thus would have allowed Airservices to pursue damages from its employees.
Kalau anda mau berbicara darihal orang yang bukan berbicara bahasa Indonesia, anda harus berbicara dalam Bahasa Inggris.
...and if you can't understand my rusty Indonesian, and also for the benefit of others so that I am not seen as rude, I'll translate:
"Good day PT, if you want to talk about people who cannot speak Indonesian, you should talk in English."
Saying that you think one forum member is a big liar, and that another forum member is very rude and a clown, in another language, in a public forum is pretty bad form. I guess if you came out and said it in English you would expect to be censured by the moderator?
Closer to the topic - but not that close: Captain Stoobing, I believe that any ATC strike action would have been deemed "unprotected industrial action" and thus would have allowed Airservices to pursue damages from its employees.
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Can anyone tell me why Civilair have not released a media release stating that Night VFR actually happens in Australia and that the statement was incorrect about VFR not flying at night. And while you are at it, maybe you could also retract the statement about the VFR aircraft getting in the way of the SAAB into Canberra.
because if much of this is from regionals and controllers, in a few years time when you need GA to give you a hand, the wounds may not have healed
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Time Bomb Ted you ask this
There is a difference between Visual Flight Rules, and Night Visual Flight Rules. The difference is that thay are Rules you fly under, not a type of flight. VFR pilots are not allowed to fly at night, unless they have a Night VFR Rating. Recency rules are different etc. So to state that a VFR pilot cannot fly at night is correct, as a pure VFR pilot hasn't got a night rating, which was not stated. That's how I read it anyways. Like saying a VFR pilot cannot fly IFR, or can he?
Can anyone tell me why Civilair have not released a media release stating that Night VFR actually happens in Australia and that the statement was incorrect about VFR not flying at night.
PPruNaholic!
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Re: the Night VFR discussion above:
No: it relates to Ted Lang's scurrilous assertion, designed to further sensationalise the debate and alarm the travelling public, that because of NAS they should only fly at night... Nice one Ted!
Andy
I believe (but dont quote me) that the first statement is in regards to NAS VFR procedures at night
Andy
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Release of ATSB under FOI
Just for info ...
Information provided to ATSB for safety investigations and reports is not available under FOI nor can ATSB provide such information to civil courts.
Information is classified as ‘restricted information’ (TSI Act, Section 3 Definitions). Section 60 of the Act states that ATSB staff members must not disclose or produce to any person or court the whole or any part of restricted information unless, in the case of civil proceedings, the Executive Director signs a certificate stating that the disclosure of the information is not likely to interfere with any investigation. Records are not disclosed to civil courts. as it is likely to prejudice the future free flow of safety information and thus compromise future safety investigations. In addition, records of interview cannot be disclosed for criminal proceedings. Finally, records of interview and other restricted information are exempt from Freedom of Information claims.
For larger investigations, ‘directly involved parties’ will receive a draft copy of the investigation report before it is publicly released. The ATSB makes, copies of all its final investigation reports available to the public.
The ATSB information relating to this incident can't be obtained under FOI.
The "directly involved parties" will have 2-3 weeks to comment on the draft report before the final report is published.
Information provided to ATSB for safety investigations and reports is not available under FOI nor can ATSB provide such information to civil courts.
Information is classified as ‘restricted information’ (TSI Act, Section 3 Definitions). Section 60 of the Act states that ATSB staff members must not disclose or produce to any person or court the whole or any part of restricted information unless, in the case of civil proceedings, the Executive Director signs a certificate stating that the disclosure of the information is not likely to interfere with any investigation. Records are not disclosed to civil courts. as it is likely to prejudice the future free flow of safety information and thus compromise future safety investigations. In addition, records of interview cannot be disclosed for criminal proceedings. Finally, records of interview and other restricted information are exempt from Freedom of Information claims.
For larger investigations, ‘directly involved parties’ will receive a draft copy of the investigation report before it is publicly released. The ATSB makes, copies of all its final investigation reports available to the public.
The ATSB information relating to this incident can't be obtained under FOI.
The "directly involved parties" will have 2-3 weeks to comment on the draft report before the final report is published.
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Time Bomb Ted.
Is that the best you can come up with? We have an avalanche of misleading examples, half-truths and outright lies spouted by the pro-NAS camp. I would be quite happy withs Ted's advice to fly at night. Your chances of encountering a night VFR flight would be markedly smaller than a VFR during the day, especially in the E AIRSPACE TED WAS TALKING ABOUT.
What happened to snarek's post? Get some legal advice about "libel", "heresay", "lies" and "damages" did you? Lost all cred now. And people wonder why AOPA is held in such low regard. Still, seeing as what's been going on in the boardroom at AOPA, you should fit right in, Mr. Kerans.
As for the topic- the proNAS people can smokescreen as much as they want. It doesn't change the fact that the airspace is now more dangerous. And only half way through implementation! Good luck fellas.
Is that the best you can come up with? We have an avalanche of misleading examples, half-truths and outright lies spouted by the pro-NAS camp. I would be quite happy withs Ted's advice to fly at night. Your chances of encountering a night VFR flight would be markedly smaller than a VFR during the day, especially in the E AIRSPACE TED WAS TALKING ABOUT.
What happened to snarek's post? Get some legal advice about "libel", "heresay", "lies" and "damages" did you? Lost all cred now. And people wonder why AOPA is held in such low regard. Still, seeing as what's been going on in the boardroom at AOPA, you should fit right in, Mr. Kerans.
As for the topic- the proNAS people can smokescreen as much as they want. It doesn't change the fact that the airspace is now more dangerous. And only half way through implementation! Good luck fellas.
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For the benefit of the weekend warriors ( of which there seems to be plenty on this thread ), when you get an RA from the TCAS it is telling you that you could have as little as 15 seconds before impact,and is giving you 5 seconds to react to the warning.
I have yet to hear of a faulty RA from a TCAS and the apathy/attitude of the Cesspit pilot makes me hope and pray that he is not maintaining the standard he achieved in the RAAF, god help us if thats the standard of our air defence, mind you, he was only a trash hauler
I have yet to hear of a faulty RA from a TCAS and the apathy/attitude of the Cesspit pilot makes me hope and pray that he is not maintaining the standard he achieved in the RAAF, god help us if thats the standard of our air defence, mind you, he was only a trash hauler
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Ferris
No it is not the best I can come up with, however I'm trying to find out if Ted has Retracted his statement about the VFR aircraft getting in the way of the REX SAAB in Canberra. Civilair makes VFR pilots out to be "Time Bombs" waiting to destroy unsuspecting RPT aircraft. We don't want to cause problems any more than the rest of the aviation industry. It does make the job of the average Flying School hard to make a buck when folks believe the sky is full of GA pilots on a death wish.
Not so? Wander out to a flying school and ask.
No it is not the best I can come up with, however I'm trying to find out if Ted has Retracted his statement about the VFR aircraft getting in the way of the REX SAAB in Canberra. Civilair makes VFR pilots out to be "Time Bombs" waiting to destroy unsuspecting RPT aircraft. We don't want to cause problems any more than the rest of the aviation industry. It does make the job of the average Flying School hard to make a buck when folks believe the sky is full of GA pilots on a death wish.
Not so? Wander out to a flying school and ask.
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TBT
No it is not the best I can come up with
Don't know much about the CB thing you are talking about (as I'm not there ATM), except that it points out a glaring difference in attitudes between professionals and amateurs. TCAS used to be a last gasp arse-saver. Now, it seems, it is just another daily ho-hum. Except for airline pilots who have to react within 5 seconds (or it may well be their arse ).Wander out to a flying school and ask I assume you are implying that since NAS, flying schools have had a drop-off in business? I'd suggest that if that's the case, blame NAS! The death of GA has been a long and painful one, which IMHO has more to do with the charging system than the airspace system . You may have noticed the turmoil in the professional pilot community lately (LCCs, locked doors, loss of T&C etc). The job simply doesn't have the appeal it once had. How many pilots would recommend it to their kids? Granted, it's a sad state of affairs, but why aren't AOPA, Dick, the minister etc putting the effort into actually promoting aviation, that they are putting into NAS? PPLLLEEEAASSSSSSEEEEEEEE don't try and tell me it's because NAS will revitalise GA! In oz, aviation is treated as a revenue source for the govt. It's not in the US. That's the big difference .
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Given e spleen venting around here against anyone who dares to be in any way pro-NAS, I think the woomeri would see my comments for what they are.
A lot less harmless than others.
And besides, they are only insults if translated
I think all this anti-NAS stuff is just dribbling from the proverbial .............
A lot less harmless than others.
And besides, they are only insults if translated
I think all this anti-NAS stuff is just dribbling from the proverbial .............
Last edited by Woomera; 14th Dec 2003 at 05:27.
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Because we represent our members
Ferris
Because we are here to represent what our members want, not what RPT, Charter, military or ATC want.
If you look on our forum, this forum and AGAF (there you have to do a bit of filtering) you will see that about 90% of GA pilots support NAS. They are the members, they get to say.
We are however putting together an advertising campaign aimed at getting more terry towling hats on more young heads
(and perhaps it is because of insults like that that I and others just ignore most of what ATC and AFAP have to say on NAS).
AK
Because we are here to represent what our members want, not what RPT, Charter, military or ATC want.
If you look on our forum, this forum and AGAF (there you have to do a bit of filtering) you will see that about 90% of GA pilots support NAS. They are the members, they get to say.
We are however putting together an advertising campaign aimed at getting more terry towling hats on more young heads
(and perhaps it is because of insults like that that I and others just ignore most of what ATC and AFAP have to say on NAS).
AK
Last edited by snarek; 12th Dec 2003 at 04:42.