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QF LCC to recruit externally..

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Old 10th Nov 2003, 17:57
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Lounge lizard,
What a load of crap. Where do you get your info from, certainly not from anyone with any remote connection with AIPA. From 400 Captains down the pilot group is united on this one. Mainline will crew the LCC....!! The line has been drawn, and if it needs to happen, it will be crossed led by AIPA and followed by 2200 very PISSED OFF pilots.

What is your agenda?? You have the ramblings of someone so bitter and twisted you must have trouble walking straight.

By the way, what 'rape' of 92? The one where AA kept the jobs they had, the flying hours they had, excellent pay, F/O's now all have commands 3-4 years faster than the average longhauler and, if they wish, a line into longhaul. Rape............ Yeh right!!!

Get a life
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Old 10th Nov 2003, 18:30
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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So many wannabes (scabs)...so few jets.
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Old 10th Nov 2003, 20:44
  #63 (permalink)  
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SHRAGS,

Jeeez, those last comments are a little unchristian of ya.

Yes it was a rape, you were probably still in nappies at the time.
Their careers were totally destroyed by AIPA's neglect and they only have their commands due to the Ansett collapse otherwise they would still be in the R/H seat 10 - 11 years down the track. And to have a chance to go to long haul, **** what an exciting prospect. That would be like waiting for an enormous bowel movement.!!!!! Well SHRAGS, certainly a hard and bitter one to swallow eh, but I'm sure your ol' jaw bones are certainly use to that. And as for mainline operating LCC's, HHHAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAA. Thanks for a bloody good laugh. And what are all 2200 going to do when no mainline operate the LCC, all go on STRIKE for your DOMESTIC children. Yeah right. Due to your deep QF indoctrination and conditioning, the blinkers, garage door, curtains and scales will probably never be ripped off the ol' eyes. And the final one of 2200 little red soldiers being branded together. Well, SHRAGS, AIPA had to do something for the boys and girls some time ago because they got a strong wiff that the 73/76 and classic drivers were so pissed off with the 400 club, they were all about to resign and get more appropriate representation. Strongly suggest you do some homework SHRAGS, there are some very ugly skeletons dingle dangling around in the ol' AIPA closet.

EPIRB,

Yes mate, this payment in the ol' hip pocket has been going on for many years now. The clowns obviously will strenuously deny such involvement, but I can assure you it is going on. And I mean bigtime. Dont expect any answers though when you start asking questions, you will only notice a lot of eye rolling, nervous fidgeting and then a fowl smell of bowel.

Your fellow brother for the cause,

Lizard
 
Old 10th Nov 2003, 21:02
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Thunderbox, what exactly do you mean?
I didn't realise anybody was on strike !!!
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Old 11th Nov 2003, 04:22
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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The Rape of '92?

Emotive language there LL.

Of course there is the counterview that the events of '92 are the longterm reason that QF shorthaul pilots didn't follow (or preceed!) their AN counterparts down the fiscal gurgler! But lets not let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

Your other point, reiterated by others on this forum, that AIPA did not support the AFAP during '89 begs a few questions.

With it not being AIPA's dispute, and a ban on secondary boycott's being in place, just what support did they expect? I have posed that question a few times on this forum and never recieved a reply.

Did you expect QF pilots to resign en-masse in support of a dispute that they were not involved in? I don't recall any request to do so at the time, with AFAP being so confident of its tactics.

I was flying 767's around at the time and know the level of domestic passengers we were carrying.... F..ALL!

So tell me, what support was realistically expected and not delivered?

As far as the topic is concerned, the issue of the LCC is one that is deeply troubling to the rank and file of AIPA. They are making their concerns known to the COM.

If this issue is not enough to force action from AIPA, nothing will.

Putatively, it does not affect people such as myself. However the thin end of the wedge is truly recognised. If the career path of every AIPA member below the rank of 767 Captain is to be maintained, anything less than flying the LCC aircraft at current 737 rates would be a disaster for AIPA.

The precedent would be set and the way shown for transferring aircraft such as the A330 to the LCC ... and who knows what else?

The line in the sand has been drawn.

..and another thing...

Can you explain how a pilot who was knocked back from Qantas in '87 achieved a 737 command in Qantas two years before longhaul pilots who joined in that year?

This pilot is now an A330 Captain, gaining access to that aircraft before any LH pilots did.

So who is being raped here?
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Old 12th Nov 2003, 20:28
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Cutie, get with the program.

There is a Guy who will be a QF 330 Capt. shortly (737-8 Capt now) who was a 'storeman and packer' in 1990!! He is not alone by far however, he is a good guy.

I am SICK of hearing this one sided B.S. that AN pilots were the 'only ones' and I am not one.........but then who cares.

"Kill Bill" kicks ass.
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Old 18th Nov 2003, 15:10
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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CoB,
I don't know what/if any support was offered by QF mainline back n 89, but the presedent of the AFAP told all athe rallies thaqt QF WOULD NOT FLY OVER DOMESTIC ROUTES. Wel;, let me tell you that they did, along with CX, SQ, ANZ and any other carrier who cared to have a go. But the president o f the AFAP swore blind that they weren't and wouldn't. Well what BS that was. More BS that was. No wonder that prick has stayed out of Austr alia for so long. He'd have been castrated some years ago if he'd had the balls to show up after his lies.
He's good company for the CP at VB who sold pilots out for shares the greedy bastard, but then he probably sold us all out back in 89 anyway.
BigJan they trot that one out when they like. Noone was on strike, therefore no scabs but it's the nastiest thing they can say in their silly name calling so they have to justify it. I wouldl willingly have scabbed back then if I knew that my future would involve this 5hithole.
And one more thing CoB, it's too late for AIPA action; the horse has bolted and you guys aqre going to get screwed. I hoped it would never haqppen because our only hope here was for you guys to retain good conditions, but it's all over now.
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Old 18th Nov 2003, 18:40
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

You really do need help mate!!!
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Old 18th Nov 2003, 19:41
  #69 (permalink)  
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VB Capt

Your words a just pure poetry. These QF boys sound like their getting a nervous twitch eh!!!
 
Old 18th Nov 2003, 21:10
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It's not over...

VB Cap and all....

It's not all over yet! There's no reason to suggest that mainline pilots will not work for an LCC. Southwest Airlines is one of the most competitively paying jobs in North America. The pay structure is slightly different than most, and is based on productivity and efficiencies, but the bottom line is the crew do have a life and they enjoy their jobs.

I have known a bunch of QF guys over the years who are looking for a break from long haul. I don't see any reason why the two groups, union and management can't figure it out.

As for me VB Captn. I'm typed on the 737 and still working as a captain on a biz jet for Netjets. I was supposed to go back to the airlines years ago, but I love this job way too much. The pay isn't that great but the treatment is fantastic. Barbados and Antigua are really cool, anytime of the year. I sure hope you find happiness Dude. I hate to see people that unhappy.
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Old 19th Nov 2003, 06:39
  #71 (permalink)  
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Just heard,
LCC will be offering SHORT term contracts to A320 endorsed crew.
Yet to be confirmed.
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Old 19th Nov 2003, 07:08
  #72 (permalink)  
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I think this is about the time that AIPA need to get very realistic if its not already too late. QF management, under the guiseof a "new" operation have effectively just set in motion the transfer of all domestic ops up to 200 seats to contract pilots. Medium haul ops (Australian Airlines) are already ripe for such a move and actually half way there.

And it would be extremely surprising if the A380 weren't to go to contract pilots, chosen from the ranks of rated 320 and 330 drivers. By the time the 380 comes there'll be hundreds of Airbus qualified pilots working in Qantas owned aircraft but not all "mainline" by a long way. What then will be the stopping power of AIPA if thecompany announces that a new long haul division will crew the 380 based on contracts? Remember that a fair number of the Airbus pilots at that time will have had no long term links (if any) to AIPA and many have already shown a willingness to either cross picket lines (the ex '89 mob) or offer themselves for service at below mainline rates. AIPA had a chance to insist on single line seniority and recruitment with Impulse Qantas Link etc but refused for a lot of reasons, smugness perhaps not the least. There was never, ever a reason why all pilots flying aircraft with the rat on the tail shouldn't have been equal in terms of opportunity that is. But that time has passed.

And now the storm clouds are practically overhead. Well its time to prepare the last ditch defences. Maybe AIPA COM could start distributing copies of "Zulu"...I recall that as an instructive piece of how to act when all seems lost. But it rested on good leadership and 100% solidarity.

Good luck.
 
Old 19th Nov 2003, 07:16
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Elektra, I'm no expert in AIPA but I thought that integration was shot down at the regional level, not by AIPA.
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Old 19th Nov 2003, 10:56
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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External recruitment....

Well....controversial I know, but external recruitment to highly experienced Airbus pilots may not be such a bad idea, if their backgrounds are alright. I would question a bunch of junior officers taking quick upgrades, or a fleet of aircraft being crewed by pilots with zero time on type.

I know everyone likes to pick on the Impulse guys, but in terms of cockpit technologies it's probably the closest to the Airbus.

What really needs to be done is an enormous solidarity drive with the Qantas Link and Impulse pilots to bring everyone on-board with a common goal.

We really have to get over ourselves. Have a few beers and iron things out now, this is Australia's only hope from escaping the pilot's own hall of doom that started with the botched mass-resignation in 1989. Sir Peter Abeles and Bob Hawke screwed things up, but we only have ourselves to blame for this present predicament.

It's time for all pilots to unite everywhere and agree on common treatment and work at achieving it everyday for the rest of our careers.

I have a farm near Port Macquarie, I've got to go back there in April, and one day I wouldn't mind returning to live in Australia full-time. A lot of people criticize the Yanks, but they do really get behind an idea and run with it, yes that includes some bad ones...but it's better than falling into the apathy that has swung through Australian labour.

As a former union air safety representative for an airline I worked for based in JFK International, I can tell you that unions are bloody hard work, for very little thanks and lots of criticism.

They are a very necessary evil!

I urge you one and all, join the "Dark Side"!
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Old 20th Nov 2003, 06:57
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Bitter Balance, someone sold you a furfy on link intergration. Pulse pilots said no due to their relative lack of overall seniorority.

Also is it true that Pulse FO's flying ICUS to get command time up to company minimum.
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Old 20th Nov 2003, 10:16
  #76 (permalink)  
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How to you think QF CADETS get upgrades??
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Old 20th Nov 2003, 14:05
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Vigi-one
Bitter Balance is correct.The Eastern australia pilots came up with some hare brained scheme to integrate their seniority with Impulse pilots allowing them some sort of progression onto a jet.
The Impulse guy's didn't want to have anything to do with it as it would disadvantage them in the future and only Eastern guy's would gain.It had nothing to do with AIPA.
I would have tried the same thing if I had been in the Eastern's guy's shoes.
As far as crewing the LCC goes, those of you still bleating about mainline crewing it, WAKE UP !!
It will either be crewed by Impulse or a greenfields company which I am sure will recruit their own crew.
Hopefully if it is a greenfields company they will not discriminate against current Qantas group pilots ie Easterns,Impulse and Sunstate pilots but I doubt it.
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Old 21st Nov 2003, 01:58
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Just to help the picture along a little with the UK experience of LCC's

Ryanair skipper's pull in 200,000 plus Oz dollars - I've worked for them and preferred to have a life.

I worked for go and my last full tax year showed an income of 174,000 dollars and I flew 750 hours. When the company was sold the bonus was more than 140,000 dollars cash. Cost of living differences between the UK and OZ are not the point of my post - believe me, as with Southwest, we weren't and aren't suffering compared to colleagues in the 'traditional' companies.

Perhaps the real point is that it doesn't matter if a start up is low cost or premium - there are so many pilots in, or wanting to return to, Australia that managers can just wait and allow you to cut each other off at the legs.

The profitable low cost carriers in Western Europe have not got cheap labour on the flightdeck - many of them are from your neck of the woods. They may well chip in to tell you how hard they work but I don't think they'll claim to get less than other aviators.

Regards
rob
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Old 22nd Nov 2003, 03:41
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... and finally truth becomes the casualty of the LCC crewing debate.

mppgf, bitter balance, d mcd, thumpa, james4th and any other ill-informed member of the IPG or its collaborators, please read on if you don't object to a little enlightenment...

How many of you actually sighted the proposal/discussion paper provided to the IP Council last year from the joint turbo-prop integration committee? - I don't expect a considered response, it's a rhetorical question.

Clauses like: ......" protection in all matters of seniority (inc. rostering, leave allocation, etc) for all currently-employed and temporarily redundant Impulse pilots, ahead of the turbo-prop pilot group, in perpetuity "...., come to mind.

In a nutshell, the IPG were never under any threat of predatory action by the remaining turbo-prop pilot group - it was my "hare(sic)-brained" and obvious attempt to restore some hope and unity to the ever-sickening state of our pilot community.
Sure, there was little on offer by way of promotional opportunity, but at the same time, nothing was being taken away from you. Instead, it would have provided the start of closer co-operation in our common goals.
Funnily enough, had the integration gone ahead, perhaps the current 'backs against the wall" scenario could have been avoided. I refer to the earlier IPG claims of "there's nothing else we could do" and "no-one would support us".
Make no mistake, the isolation that the IPG may now be feeling is of their own making.

mppgf,

As one of the architects of the Integration document, perhaps I'm entitled to feel just a little put out by your unfounded claims.

Regardless, the great paradox for me personally is that 12 years ago, after returning from an overseas job in the aftermath of that eventful year, I seriously considered a name change to insulate my 6y.o. from the sins of his father during his future pursuit of an aviation career. Now at the conclusion of his school life and after unfathomable changes in the industry, I counsel him to consider his other options.

For certain, the new generation of promising Australian aviators faces a bleak future of growing disparity and indignity within the workforce..

In offering services at the rumoured discount rate, I can only assume that the IPG has succombed to insurmountable fear and trepidation, collective insecurity and perhaps pressure from the younger members to expose the hand so early in your negotiations on this issue.
For certain though, this action provides no guarantee of a favourable outcome for you or you peers .... (no need to repeat the long list of other sentiments).

I hope that good sense will return to the heads of the incumbents soon and we can strive towards the only thing that will turnaround the current state - that is the insistence on greater unity within the aviation fellowship - it's the only path to recovery and defence to an eroding professional landscape.

Sure - I'm painfully aware of the perceptions of naivete I left behind in the ashes of integration last year, but equally, I'm comfortable with the fact that while I failed in my attempts at bringing unity to the QF regional group, I maintained integrity in my beliefs and hopefully led, in a very small way, by an example for others to follow.

To the topic of closer links with AIPA - it's an essential step, but a difficult marriage all the same. Perhaps, had there been greater visionaries among the QF pilot group on the whole (self, included in the criticism), we would now not be facing the greatest challenge ever to face us.
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Old 22nd Nov 2003, 04:57
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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What goes 'round, comes 'round. Remember it, IPG.
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