Unhappy travellers let fly at Qantas
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Cactus
The paying public have the right to complain about service,
How much does a simple smile cost? Ans:F@#$all.
One dot low
How about the QF 737 running of the strip in darwin at night and in **** weather,Funny what gets kept quite,They even tried to hide the a/c in a RAAF hangar,pitty the tail didnt fit in.
The paying public have the right to complain about service,
How much does a simple smile cost? Ans:F@#$all.
One dot low
How about the QF 737 running of the strip in darwin at night and in **** weather,Funny what gets kept quite,They even tried to hide the a/c in a RAAF hangar,pitty the tail didnt fit in.
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Fact is people, all airlines have their problems.
QF's problem has long been it's inconsistent and reactionary approach to it's customers and to competitors in that order.
Steps are being taken to address this problem. No carrier is immune to the problem of bad service (United, Virgin Atlantic, BA, et al have all had their share of hard knocks from the travelling public). Virgin Blue are just as guilty of poor service as QF, albeit on a much reduced scale.
Virgin - just like QF, and every other airline - has problems with safety that arise, quite often than not, from human factors and training issues. Not new problems by any means, but certainly not restricted to any one particular airline.
There is always room for improvement when it comes to service. And to a degree, there are those crew in QF who deserve the 'push'. But getting rid of older, more experienced crew isn't necessarily the answer - you will find just as many stroppy younger aged crew flying as there are older, more experienced crew. So does sacking those we deem to be 'terrible' solve our problem in the short or long term? No - nor will it ever solve the problem.
I think the problem is broader than most believe...
Geoff Dixon have made no secret that they wish to cut costs - for the most part, this has been borne by the employees. They have had to endure restructure after restructure, redundancies, doom and gloom mantra, etc. for too long now...they are bitter, over it and quite frankly, they've had enough (I sure as hell have).
Just look at airlines such as Frontier or Southwest in the US - companies that actually value their employees by spending money to make money (happy employees mean happy customers - simple). Unless QF feels threatened, it 'reacts' by holding onto its' purse and continuing to talk about how hard done by they are (yeah - their second biggest competitor went bust, and their neighbours in the region are all hurting in one form or another).
My formula for happy employees = happy customers may sound over-simplified, but I challenge anyone on this board to show me an airline where a responsible, driven management that shows respect and values its employees has done bad. I can name at least three airlines in the US where employees are valued and as such, the airline benefits from continued and new patronage - Frontier, Southwest (of course) and Continental Airlines.
I think the solution to this problem is quit making QF staff the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with QF ("Labour costs account for up to 30% of our total expenditure"..."we must streamline our business with more efficient [read: lowered] conditions"...). Unions don't run QF, nor will they ever run QF - but they are an important part of employee representation. I shudder to think what would come of QF without union representation (and I ask that you all keep any responses to this statement mature people)...
Value your staff Mr Dixon. Reward them for doing well, instead of routinely punishing them with cut after cut to their way of life and job security, which eventually impacts and upsets the people responsible for our income - the passenger.
And if you think that spending money doesn't necessarily equate to improvements in general (such as service, market share, punctuality, etc) , I suggest you read Gordon Bethune's book (Continental CEO) book called "From Worst to First" - an inspirational piece of literature I'm sure QF could learn a great deal from, for the benefit of employees and passengers alike.
And now I'm off my soapbox.
QF's problem has long been it's inconsistent and reactionary approach to it's customers and to competitors in that order.
Steps are being taken to address this problem. No carrier is immune to the problem of bad service (United, Virgin Atlantic, BA, et al have all had their share of hard knocks from the travelling public). Virgin Blue are just as guilty of poor service as QF, albeit on a much reduced scale.
Virgin - just like QF, and every other airline - has problems with safety that arise, quite often than not, from human factors and training issues. Not new problems by any means, but certainly not restricted to any one particular airline.
There is always room for improvement when it comes to service. And to a degree, there are those crew in QF who deserve the 'push'. But getting rid of older, more experienced crew isn't necessarily the answer - you will find just as many stroppy younger aged crew flying as there are older, more experienced crew. So does sacking those we deem to be 'terrible' solve our problem in the short or long term? No - nor will it ever solve the problem.
I think the problem is broader than most believe...
Geoff Dixon have made no secret that they wish to cut costs - for the most part, this has been borne by the employees. They have had to endure restructure after restructure, redundancies, doom and gloom mantra, etc. for too long now...they are bitter, over it and quite frankly, they've had enough (I sure as hell have).
Just look at airlines such as Frontier or Southwest in the US - companies that actually value their employees by spending money to make money (happy employees mean happy customers - simple). Unless QF feels threatened, it 'reacts' by holding onto its' purse and continuing to talk about how hard done by they are (yeah - their second biggest competitor went bust, and their neighbours in the region are all hurting in one form or another).
My formula for happy employees = happy customers may sound over-simplified, but I challenge anyone on this board to show me an airline where a responsible, driven management that shows respect and values its employees has done bad. I can name at least three airlines in the US where employees are valued and as such, the airline benefits from continued and new patronage - Frontier, Southwest (of course) and Continental Airlines.
I think the solution to this problem is quit making QF staff the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with QF ("Labour costs account for up to 30% of our total expenditure"..."we must streamline our business with more efficient [read: lowered] conditions"...). Unions don't run QF, nor will they ever run QF - but they are an important part of employee representation. I shudder to think what would come of QF without union representation (and I ask that you all keep any responses to this statement mature people)...
Value your staff Mr Dixon. Reward them for doing well, instead of routinely punishing them with cut after cut to their way of life and job security, which eventually impacts and upsets the people responsible for our income - the passenger.
And if you think that spending money doesn't necessarily equate to improvements in general (such as service, market share, punctuality, etc) , I suggest you read Gordon Bethune's book (Continental CEO) book called "From Worst to First" - an inspirational piece of literature I'm sure QF could learn a great deal from, for the benefit of employees and passengers alike.
And now I'm off my soapbox.
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By the way, no one needs a dispensation to fly 95 hours per month. Never have! 100 hours in 30 days is the legal limitation. I have safely flown over 100 hours per month for many months on end whilst operating overseas. Not too sure what your point was there. As I said, be great to keep the conversation constructive.
so, there is nothing wrong with QF unless you find something wrong and we probably tried to hide in the first place and then well everybody has their shortfalls and why are you being so un-australian in pointing that out to everybody and anyway you should be on our side and it is not our fault that we as staff are a bunch of grumpy militant unionists because we should not have to be professional and keep our chin up in the public eye and we should be able to blame someone else for the situation we find ourselves in even if it means the people paying our wages do not get a reasonable service and why should we accept any level of criticism about the way we carry ourselves as we are not interested in feedback of any kind for we do not see that there is any problem with the way we do our job and why are you not looking at someone else because we think there is an unfair scutiny of our operation and we just want you all to go away.....
edited for spelling.
edited for spelling.
Last edited by nike; 25th Aug 2003 at 12:27.
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Nike - was that response meant to be in response to my post?
Got lost trying to read your post - somewhat lacking in punctuation.
If it was - and I'm assuming it is - my response is as follows:
* What do you think Continental Airlines was classed as before Gordon Bethune's appointment as CEO? I can tell you this - the staff were WORSE than QF's and so was the operation. Read the book and I think you'll find very clear comparisons between the two!
* QF has it's faults, as well as grumpy staff - never said that it didn't. But look deeper and you may find the reasons behind these faults. Nothing is black and white in this industry, least of all QF. Demotivation, complacency, etc. are all endemic in an industry that is trying to pick itself up from what has been a terrible two years...a frequent one that I see at airports is under-resourced staff (all fair and well telling people to do a good days work - bit difficult if you don't give them the equipment/staff to do it properly!)
* I don't work for QF directly, but for a subsidiary. Either way, we're all tarred with the same brush aren't we, as all the other QF employees who do a great job? The compliments QF receive are a 3:1 ratio to complaints. If QF was as bad as it's been stated here, why then would we receive compliments? Sure, improvements can be made - but give them the chance to take effect.
* Sometimes the facade of keeping your 'chin up' slips. I didn't realise QF staff weren't meant to be human. Professional yes, but emotion/human nature is known to override professionalism on occasion. Qantas is not alone in this.
* I think you will find that the staff are more than willing to receive feedback. I believe strongly that it is in the upper echelons where you will find a distinct set of 'blinkers' to passenger feedback.
* Nike - have you ever worked for a company where your ideas are not listened to? Ideas that may improve customer service (at a cost, mind you)? Where everything you do is tied to costs at the end of the day - not the customer? Where your company waits for someone else to come up with better passenger services before they do anything (PTV's in Y class anyone - how LONG did it take for QF to install these?)
Qantas is a reactionary carrier - always has been, always will be. It's all fair and well being cost-conscious, but when it impacts on the customer (ie. recent changes to frequent flier system), who wears the wrath of the customer?
The staff. And no, it's not their job to be blamed for things way beyond their control (ie. changes in upgrade policy, etc).
Nike, if passengers yelled at you every day, every shift, I'm sure you wouldn't be a bundle of smiles either.
I suggest criticism should be aimed at the Geoff Dixon end of the spectrum - he who holds the purse strings and prevents innovation from entering his airline in any way, shape or form (well, until a competitor comes up with a market share winner - then we'll do it!)
Got lost trying to read your post - somewhat lacking in punctuation.
If it was - and I'm assuming it is - my response is as follows:
* What do you think Continental Airlines was classed as before Gordon Bethune's appointment as CEO? I can tell you this - the staff were WORSE than QF's and so was the operation. Read the book and I think you'll find very clear comparisons between the two!
* QF has it's faults, as well as grumpy staff - never said that it didn't. But look deeper and you may find the reasons behind these faults. Nothing is black and white in this industry, least of all QF. Demotivation, complacency, etc. are all endemic in an industry that is trying to pick itself up from what has been a terrible two years...a frequent one that I see at airports is under-resourced staff (all fair and well telling people to do a good days work - bit difficult if you don't give them the equipment/staff to do it properly!)
* I don't work for QF directly, but for a subsidiary. Either way, we're all tarred with the same brush aren't we, as all the other QF employees who do a great job? The compliments QF receive are a 3:1 ratio to complaints. If QF was as bad as it's been stated here, why then would we receive compliments? Sure, improvements can be made - but give them the chance to take effect.
* Sometimes the facade of keeping your 'chin up' slips. I didn't realise QF staff weren't meant to be human. Professional yes, but emotion/human nature is known to override professionalism on occasion. Qantas is not alone in this.
* I think you will find that the staff are more than willing to receive feedback. I believe strongly that it is in the upper echelons where you will find a distinct set of 'blinkers' to passenger feedback.
* Nike - have you ever worked for a company where your ideas are not listened to? Ideas that may improve customer service (at a cost, mind you)? Where everything you do is tied to costs at the end of the day - not the customer? Where your company waits for someone else to come up with better passenger services before they do anything (PTV's in Y class anyone - how LONG did it take for QF to install these?)
Qantas is a reactionary carrier - always has been, always will be. It's all fair and well being cost-conscious, but when it impacts on the customer (ie. recent changes to frequent flier system), who wears the wrath of the customer?
The staff. And no, it's not their job to be blamed for things way beyond their control (ie. changes in upgrade policy, etc).
Nike, if passengers yelled at you every day, every shift, I'm sure you wouldn't be a bundle of smiles either.
I suggest criticism should be aimed at the Geoff Dixon end of the spectrum - he who holds the purse strings and prevents innovation from entering his airline in any way, shape or form (well, until a competitor comes up with a market share winner - then we'll do it!)
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Mr Seatback.
SQ - one of the worlds most profitable airlines and yet one of the worst employers around.
SQ are using SARS to drive down wages and force un paid leave and then sack pilots and FA's despite using no paid leave to ensure this didnt happen.
More sackings coming in Sep.
SQ have proven that an employee is just a number that is to be manipulated by them at will - look at how Silk dealt with crew.
SQ - one of the worlds most profitable airlines and yet one of the worst employers around.
SQ are using SARS to drive down wages and force un paid leave and then sack pilots and FA's despite using no paid leave to ensure this didnt happen.
More sackings coming in Sep.
SQ have proven that an employee is just a number that is to be manipulated by them at will - look at how Silk dealt with crew.
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Qantas supporters , please dont get upset because some is stating some facts. Instead be proactive and seek out the problems (if you are QF employees)and try and turn things around. I think it would be good job security.
I am a expat pilot and travel every month overseas. I will not travel Qantas due to the bad service. I travel SQ which the cattle class is equal to qantas business class ( except for the seating).
I recently traveled QF to Adelaide domestic and was battling to get a second cup of tea, then it was delivered with a look that if I order again I have my first born killed.
I would like to travel QF again and support our national carrier but they have to come a long way yet before I will be convinced.
I am a expat pilot and travel every month overseas. I will not travel Qantas due to the bad service. I travel SQ which the cattle class is equal to qantas business class ( except for the seating).
I recently traveled QF to Adelaide domestic and was battling to get a second cup of tea, then it was delivered with a look that if I order again I have my first born killed.
I would like to travel QF again and support our national carrier but they have to come a long way yet before I will be convinced.
Mr seatback 2 - no my post was NOT in response to your post, in fact I shall now go and read your post as I hadn't prior to posting mine.
The lack of punctuation is representative of the impression I get from reading anti QF threads.
QF supporter's need to pause a moment and add in some coma's, periods and the like before they run off down the 'don't pick on me it's not our fault road'.
In fact your response to my post is a classic example.
OK Mr Seatback 2, I have now read your posts, not sure why you would think I posted mine in DIRECT reply to yours.....but thats not important anymore.
You are quite excitable and have obviously put alot of thought into your situation. Top notch.
Send a copy of Gordon Bethune's book to this Geoff Dixon guy, it sounds like a good read.
The lack of punctuation is representative of the impression I get from reading anti QF threads.
QF supporter's need to pause a moment and add in some coma's, periods and the like before they run off down the 'don't pick on me it's not our fault road'.
In fact your response to my post is a classic example.
OK Mr Seatback 2, I have now read your posts, not sure why you would think I posted mine in DIRECT reply to yours.....but thats not important anymore.
You are quite excitable and have obviously put alot of thought into your situation. Top notch.
Send a copy of Gordon Bethune's book to this Geoff Dixon guy, it sounds like a good read.
Last edited by nike; 25th Aug 2003 at 13:23.
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ABN Amro and Maquarie research advised investment folk today that SQ will be shortly in discussions with the federal government for open skies as well as advising of them a possible third entrant, that being SQ in some way shape or form.
No wind up intended here, just what was in ABC business section.
Could QF have a sniff off the SQ plans and be hurrying to try and thwart them?
No wind up intended here, just what was in ABC business section.
Could QF have a sniff off the SQ plans and be hurrying to try and thwart them?
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Wouldn't surprise me...reactionary as ever, our dear QF.
Nike - love your work! Yes, I am quite excitable when it comes to people complaining about Qantas staff (not that you were) and blaming them for everything under the sun.
Some select, minority staff do deserve to be given a good flogging - but the majority of QF staff are great people, trying to do their best in the face of very anti-employee tactics at the 'Roo.
Fingers crossed that one day, the situation will improve and we'll have a board of management that recognises and appreciates the contributions that employees have made to improving QF's bottom line time and time again since privatisation.
Nike - love your work! Yes, I am quite excitable when it comes to people complaining about Qantas staff (not that you were) and blaming them for everything under the sun.
Some select, minority staff do deserve to be given a good flogging - but the majority of QF staff are great people, trying to do their best in the face of very anti-employee tactics at the 'Roo.
Fingers crossed that one day, the situation will improve and we'll have a board of management that recognises and appreciates the contributions that employees have made to improving QF's bottom line time and time again since privatisation.
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I work with Australian Airlines. I'm sure most of you all know, that we have started flying out of Sydney and Melbourne to Bali and Sabah. On those services i constantly recieve complaints about the the level of service they recieve from my parent company, and how it has declined over the past few years. I'm a big suppoter of Qantas, being an ex Qantas employee before joining the cabin crew ranks at AO.
My point is.... Qantas is and will remain a great airline.. It's staff are among the best in world, despite a few who let the team down. Staff are under alot of pressure and are being put through constant change. It would interesting to see how the staff react to a new subsidiary on the domestic market. hmmmmmmmm
I have question. Has anybody flown on AO?, if so what are your thoughts?
My point is.... Qantas is and will remain a great airline.. It's staff are among the best in world, despite a few who let the team down. Staff are under alot of pressure and are being put through constant change. It would interesting to see how the staff react to a new subsidiary on the domestic market. hmmmmmmmm
I have question. Has anybody flown on AO?, if so what are your thoughts?
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Anyone care to comment on this carrier being Impulse/Airconnex restructured with 737 in the fleet.
And what of those Cairns base Impulse rumours? Is that our AO domestic connection?
Serious comment and debate greatly appreciated.
And what of those Cairns base Impulse rumours? Is that our AO domestic connection?
Serious comment and debate greatly appreciated.
Last edited by cabin secure; 27th Aug 2003 at 19:38.
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Some might complain about the cabin service on Qantas on long haul flights - although on the few times I have travelled overseas on Qantas I saw no problems in that area. But I choose the White Rat when flying overseas because as a nervous pilot passenger I have total confidence in the competence, professionalism and flight safety ethos of the people running the sharp end. No loss of face dangers when it comes to operational decision making - just good old Australian pragmatism.
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I think no mater what ,you need bums in seats to make money,Even if this means ,smilling and being nice to the fat,Drunken ass hole in row 12.Its all about being proffesional.Thats what you are being payed for!I have at times felt sorry for F/A on flights Ive been on.QF staff your issue are with your employer not the travelling public!!Never had any probs when flying Ansett
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I couldn't agree anymore about the sentiments being expressed here...
You're right - the problem is with the company, not the passengers...but sadly, there are those who let the team down (couldn't have said it better mid assist).
Get them in every airline - Qantas is not alone in this regard (that however, does not excuse the behaviour of select individuals).
And what of Impulse/Airconnex getting the 737's??? AT least I believe that's what you're implying cabin secure - unless you mean Jetconnect the NZ subsidiary??? Interesting times ahead - me thinks, this will be where the low cost carrier will start from (they have an AOC, cost base that is now LESS than Virgin's and with refurbed 737's...it all makes sense).
The CNS rumour has been doing the rounds for at least a year...but then again...who knows??
Anyone heard anything different?
You're right - the problem is with the company, not the passengers...but sadly, there are those who let the team down (couldn't have said it better mid assist).
Get them in every airline - Qantas is not alone in this regard (that however, does not excuse the behaviour of select individuals).
And what of Impulse/Airconnex getting the 737's??? AT least I believe that's what you're implying cabin secure - unless you mean Jetconnect the NZ subsidiary??? Interesting times ahead - me thinks, this will be where the low cost carrier will start from (they have an AOC, cost base that is now LESS than Virgin's and with refurbed 737's...it all makes sense).
The CNS rumour has been doing the rounds for at least a year...but then again...who knows??
Anyone heard anything different?
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We know about the NZ Jetconnect.
Impulse/Qantaslinks ID's have a company name of Airconnex on them is my understanding.
A separate airline company perhaps???
Impulse/Qantaslinks ID's have a company name of Airconnex on them is my understanding.
A separate airline company perhaps???
Last edited by cabin secure; 27th Aug 2003 at 19:38.
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I have seen 2 QF skippers lose face to date. Unfortunately it does happen and they do chuck a nasty tantrum, what makes it worse is that 1 is in the training department. Luckily Safety of Pax was not in question over the incidents, just a 4 bar wearers pride.
Its Rather shocking seeing 50 year olds chuck tantrums. Now i know how my old man felt when i was in that early teenage and younger years stage.
Its Rather shocking seeing 50 year olds chuck tantrums. Now i know how my old man felt when i was in that early teenage and younger years stage.
Probably one of the hardest things to do is to put one's personal thoughts to one side when in the public eye.
But thats the challenge......to put on a brave face.....even when you may believe you are not getting a fair go. Even when the guy in front of you may be an absolute w@nk3r and deserves 50,000 uppercuts.
This is the key. To be as professional as one can, or at least thats my interpretation of the situation.
To fight the battle on the correct front.
But it can be hard for sure...thats why I have total respect for those who I see trying their best in trying circumstances.
But thats the challenge......to put on a brave face.....even when you may believe you are not getting a fair go. Even when the guy in front of you may be an absolute w@nk3r and deserves 50,000 uppercuts.
This is the key. To be as professional as one can, or at least thats my interpretation of the situation.
To fight the battle on the correct front.
But it can be hard for sure...thats why I have total respect for those who I see trying their best in trying circumstances.