As the controller said the reason he gives this extra restriction is because flight crews don't comply to the already published restriction.....don't go complaining that a controller is making you waste fuel...go complain to your colleauges about not making restrictions....it's not that difficult.....:ugh:

ATC: "(callsign) squawk ident."

Pilot: SILENCE :ugh:

Hmmmmmm Here there are numerous complaints about this "precious" air time, and when the opportunity arises to push a button and keep your mouth shut....it is also a problem. If the box lights up, why have to confirm verbally?

If the squawk ident request is being used to identify the aircraft, you must verify that the aircraft squawking is the one you asked to squawk and not someone else who misheard your request. The ident and the acknowledgement must be received for the aircraft to be correctly identified.

Ferry Pilot DK
[quote] ATC: "(callsign) squawk ident."

Pilot: SILENCE :ugh:

Hmmmmmm Here there are numerous complaints about this "precious" air time, and when the opportunity arises to push a button and keep your mouth shut....it is also a problem. If the box lights up, why have to confirm verbally?
/QUOTE]

IF the wrong a/c takes the call, selects the sqk and i/d, then there is likely to be a mis ident which at best is a waste of time and annoying, at worst blxxdy dangerous.

I've read all these.As somebody said,slightly worrying.

For me the worst is

"G-ABCD, orbit left over Alderley Edge,1500 ft QNH,expect 45 minute delay due inbound IFR traffic"

They've got autopilots I haven't.

Not meant seriously but it did happen a few times.

That is allowed according to the CAP413 though, isn't it?

I got something similar at KLAS once, but either the controller decided to be nice and help me out, or he didn't want a light IFR airplane in his mix to handle.

ATC: Expect 1 hour delay for IFR traffic.
ME : Understood. Would you prefer I get an IFR clearance from FSS? Or can you handle a pop-up clearance?
ATC: Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace turn left heading..... remain VFR

Come to think of it, KLAS seems to be the worst offender in giving a very low priority to VFR light airplanes. Another time during VFR flight following, when I was overflying Bravo airspace but checked in for traffic advisories:

ATC: Turn right heading 270 for traffic
ME : Turning right 270 (90 degrees to my desired course)

After 10 miles:

ME : Cancel flight following. Turning back on course.
ATC : Uhh ok.

Now I don't bother checking in with KLAS approach when overflying them.

Starting initial calls with the word 'And'!

'And Ground...'
'And Tower...'

Grrrr. :mad:

Notably an Easyjet trait (gross generalisation of course...)

Much easier to give you "service" and get you out of the way rather than vector half a dozen (or more) heavies out of "your way". It amazes me that people assume there is no reason; oh yes that's right we always do it for controller amusement.

Use of "Say again", when "correction" is better:

ME: "Descend to seven thousand feet QNH 1013"
PILOT: "Descend to five {pause}, I say again, seven thousand QNH 1013"

Someone mentioned LIFFY.
Why do ATC insist on not publishing these handover agrements. 330 by exmor, 270 by liffey, 280 by otbed.etc etc. Pain in the arse on a trg flight. Things that need to be planned for on a trg flight need some form of reason. Just do it because it will happen isnt good trg technique. Espacially when it doesnt on occasion. Publish it , with caveats or it shouldnt be a requirement.
Oh and while Im here. 30 track miles should mean just that. Are you listening female controllers at manchester? Requesting to maintain 220kts at 5000 and 15 miles in a 757 with a tail wind and then turning on to the approach with another request for 160 to 4, then an immediate min approach request is pure bolox.

Obviously you fly into Manchester fairly often, if you look at MACC's airspace (which is published) you will see that all of these restrictions are to get you into MACC's airspace. No point in working LACC or Scottish that close to Manch with the volume of other traffic around. They are there to ensure the best efficient use of airspace, not to pi$$ off pilots. ;)

Any ride reports
 

It's annoying to be sure, but when you realize that cruise altitude is about the last opportunity to exercise their discretion allowed crews by todays tightly scripted airline operations along with the desire to give pax as good an experience as possible, very understandable.

Very interesting about the squawk ident. I have always been taught not to reply to this instruction unless there was a new transponder code given. (i.e. squawk 0470 and ident)

A/C: LONDON - ABC123 - PASSING ALTITUDE 2300FT - CLIMBING TO ALTITUDE 3000FT - SAM2V
ATC: ABC123 - LONDON - CLIMB FL80 - SQUAWK IDENT
A/C: CLIMB FL80 - ABC123

Had a look through CAP 413 and couldn't find anything. In the supplement in the Climb-Cruise-Descent section the last instruction is to squawk ident but they don't give a reply.

CEMJ

Quote:

---

Had a look through CAP 413 and couldn't find anything. In the supplement in the Climb-Cruise-Descent section the last instruction is to squawk ident but they don't give a reply.

---

Have a look at CAP 413 Ch2 RT Gen Procedures p1-2-12
Ch5 Rad Phraseology Rad id of a/c p1-5-3 para 1-3-2
And the Supp -Taxi and Take Off section p17 which I interpret as a general instruction as some of the items are unlikely to be included in normal Taxi-T/O situations.

"callsign, london, roger"

and then turns round and

To the management, "boo hoo hoo, im such a loser. i need to complain, IMMEDIATELY, go and do it for me, i couldn't possibly do it myself in a professional mature manner"

GunkyTom,

Thanks you, I hang my head in shame.

1985,

I am fully aware of why the restrictions are there. I am not aware of any reason why they couldnt publish these things next to the waypoints on the enroutes, terminals etc. These are what we use on a day to day basis, not dimensinal tables or aips. Have you sen a uk jepp 1/2 hi level recently? Have a look and tell me how hard it would be , as opposed to trawling the shaded areas for dimensions, reading the front of the chart etc etc, oh and trying to loose upto 7000 with a tail wind in 1/3 profile ie 21 miles when the london guy gives the exmor limit based on 1/3 descent.
Equally the 310 climb limit southbound, publish it somewhere and more people will achieve it with planning

FH

I presume you are talking about FL310 L AMRAL? If so thats not an agreement anywhere. Its a tactical restriction given by the controller based on other traffic going along UL9, the controller probably needs you to achieve that otherwise you are going to get a stepped climb under a transatlantic 747 or A340. Which would you prefer? If you can't make that one then just say so and the controller will sort it. If there is no conflicting traffic then the restriction won't be given.

Its the same with the Exmoor FL330 restriction. Usually this is given to take you out of the High Level sector (FL335+) and to deconflict you with high level cruisers going eastbound along UL9, but its still not a published standing agreement.

I agree if they are standing agreement that are written in our manuals then they should be published, ie the Liffey and Otbed ones, but we can't publish anything if nothing exists to be published

Amral is 270a.
Im on about 310 65 before mid etc. Im not disputing the need for them, but its should be promulgated. I train alot of ab initio f/o from cadet to jet. In the early stages you need something to hang your hat on. Trying to expalin a restriction that you cant prove is annoying.. Not a train smash just makes me hoarse, having to give heads up to unpublished stuff when planning exercises would be so much more beneficial if one could present all the info and let them figure it out. Second guessing a candidates knowledge is the worst form of demoralising technique. Bit of a tangent but my perspective.
Cheers

Crispey
 

Perhaps it was busy with IFR traffic that had been holding - I imagine any IFR aircraft would be a bit miffed if a VFR traffic pitched up and got straight in when they had been going around in circles for an hour!! :hmm:

louby

1985 - Etc.

Spot on, I don't care what the restrictions are, provided the are published on the Jepp plates we use and are available easily for us to see.

The climb restrictions are easy as well - just say no, can't do because of the laws of physics and ATC will always help.

As a pilot I have a few come backs about ATC voice procedure. I have sympathy with quite a few of the points mentioned before: I don't think that we're all perfect, and we are all moderately intelligent, so I think that as a rule we know what each other mean. Onto my gripes.

An unnamed airport in the West Midlands that when a clearance is issued mentions the flight level, which is exzctly that published on the SID chart. Same unnamed airport that when QNH dips below 1013mb makes a very pointed remark about SIDs climbing to a flight level ather than an altitude (the published SID is a flight level).

Over wordy descent clearances, such as coming North towards Avant the clearance is normally 'descend FL 250 to be level 10 miles before Avant'. It's always very busy through that bit of sky (I once had to wait 4 minutes before being able to check in with London there), so why not say dexcend FL 250 level by Susix' [which is 10 or 12 miles South of Avant].

Terminal radar controllers who when you check in, and mention the ATIS that you have already recieved, but whislt you are still cleared to a flight level tell you what the QNH is: it is confusing. Am I now cleared to an altitude? No: it is not relevant at this point.

Don't think there are any other winges for now.

Firestorm



I am not at TC but at any airport I have worked at, we are obliged to give or confirm the current ATIS along with the type of App and the QNH, regardless of your cleared level. CAP 413 Ch 6 App Phraseology P1-6-3 refers. The example is for a/c joining CAS but the principle is the same. I sympathise and personally, I don't mention QNH until I want the a/c to set it but I am wrong for doing so.

Louby

""Not meant seriously but it did happen a few times""

I meant my post wasn't to be taken too seriously!!I spent a lot of time circling Alderley Edge and a very fine place it is too.You can also count the shoppers in Wilmslow.Handy for keeping your orbits accurate too.

I trained at MFS at MAN so came into contact and became friendly with quite a few big iron drivers.ATCOs too.It was never a major problem.I needed help twice in my 10 or more years there.I got help twice,very quickly too.

100% agree. There are lots of restriction like that. I guarantee you the controllers are just as annoyed as you are. R/T congestion is a major problem. Some of them are in the process of being looked at, and altered hopefully.

When I used to work AMC, I would reply to initial calls with "ABC123, hello!" only. 50 per cent of pilots were happy with this, while the rest, obviously expecting something more, would reply with useless info like "we're ready for departure" or "established eight miles out" or whatever.

Oh, and while I'm at it, my pet peave: What in the world has happened to the concept of initial calls? Instead of the standard "Callsign, level" or "callsign, level passing, cleared level" I get presented with all sorts of useless info "inbound XYZ, out of airport ABC, executing SID whatever". I need your level passing to confirm the mode C readout (not allowed to use it for separation purposes otherwise), and I need your cleared level since the previous controllers might have made a mistake. Again I base my separation on your cleared level. So please, standard initial calls. If you then insist on tacking on extra info like a SID, so be it! :D

Is that something standard for Germany? IIRC, in the UK, it is a requirement to also include the SID (as well as passing and cleared level) once airborne.

Marseille good morning big airline 123 passing flight level 230 descending flight level 150 boeing 757 with information bravo requesting a visual approach and that you inform every other aircraft that we only speak and hear english.

big airline 123 good morning roger take up the hold expect 1 hour delay while we wait for the french only speaking pilots to finish their operation.

Confirm 1 hour delay big airline 123.

afirm - ICAO standard that calls be made in the language of the ground station or english if that is not possible. The language of this ground station is French can you speak french?

Oui bon matin, nous sommes prêts à une approche à vue lorsque disponible

:E

Regards,

DFC

Defruiter is entirely correct (from a UK perspective.)

The climb requirements are nearly always impossible with a loaded 320 or 321 - don't start on the Bus/Boing argument. I politely advise we are unable due weight and give my best level at the current speed. I am loath to reduce speed to try and achieve an unattainable level, only to then have to fly level to accelerate in order to climb. Hopefully, when enough folk do similar, sensible boundaries will be arranged :ok:

I agree with previous posters regarding the QNH, especially in the UK. It seems to me that every single person that I talk to gives me the QNH, I'll have repeated it 15 times before I get airborne. I'm expecting to have to read it back to the fuel guy soon...

You never know!

I agree this repeating of the QNH "n" times is quite OTT and certainly when combined with a Flight Level is open to error.

We seem to live in a world where slavish adherence to "procedures" is overriding good practice. Now don't get me wrong I am all for SOPs and correct phraseology but it is, in my opinion, better to do the "right thing" than to do "things right".

When you introduce a procedure to fix a "problem" you have to be careful that you do not generate a list of more potential problems. What I see in aviation these days are knee-jerk reactions because there has been one or two incidents instead of really thinking through the aim and ensuring all involved are correctly trained through understanding of the reasons behind why the procedures are in place.

I cannot see any really big deal with level restrictions though so long as they are given in a timely manner. If you can make the level it's ok and if you cannot it's still ok - just advise ATC accordingly.

Level by LIFFY (or 10 before)
 

DFC, Fork handles and others;

In our (Shannon) MATS part 2 Co-ordination procedures we have a Letter of Agreement (LOA) with each adjoining centre. Each LOA defines minimum radar separations for silent handovers, reduced separations etc. Included in the LOA for London are level restrictions for most EGxx ADES's.

London sets these levels, off hand they include:
LIFFY (any ADES in MAN/IOM area) max FL270 e.g. EGCC, EGBB
LIFFY some Northeastern ADES can have FL330, I think EGNX, EGUN etc.

STU/EVRIN
Any EGLL TMA Max FL330
Simultaneous OPS through STU and EVRIN(UL607) are allowed providing
1.Both are EGLL TMA inbound or
2.Both are overflyers
3.If one is inbound and the other overflying then the inbound has to be through EVRIN
STU Cardiff and Bristol max F310

BANBA Southbound DEPs from EIDW Max 270, EICK UB10 max 250

Thers are others, but LIFFY is a special case. Over DUB VOR we are trying to accomodate EGAx inbounds descending to F250 and in transfer to EIDW,
EGCC etc. inbounds descending to F270 and in transfer to MACC (anything higher and still descending has to be co-ordinated with EGTT sec 7, Outbounds from EGCC climbing to F280 looking for higher but have to co-ordinated with EGTT sec 7 before RAMOX. EGAx deps climbing to F240 looking for higher. Scottish TMA inbounds descending to Max F320.
East Midlands etc, inbounds descending to F330, Scottish TMA outbounds, climbing to Fl310 looking for higher.
And of course there's always some other looney doing something different in the mix, like RVSM excempt state a/c or SST trials in the Irish sea to complicate it further.

While I appreciate these things don't all happen at the same time It's not uncommon to have 6 or 7 a/c crossing in 3 dimension within 5 miles of DUB VOR.

Best practice should be common practice this is why the work is done early. A/c have to be level before transfer to another sector unless otherwise co-ordinated.
Thorisgod

ATC: "XXX, Report ready to copy ATC clearance"
A/C: "Standing by for ATC"

I wish I had a cent every time I have to guess if that was "standing by" or "standby".

Those, (both ATCOs and flight crew) who think it sounds cool to shorten the phonetic alphabet eg "X", "pap", "fox" etc. Just makes you sound like a chimp.

Phonetics
 

What about the large sections of our aviation community who say "Poppa" instead of "Pah-pah"

J

One many of my lot use:

"London Hotjet 123 good morning Flight Level 390 Brecon."

....when we are routing directly to, but still have 60nm to go to Brecon!

See http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=319439

I don't know what source that comes from, but it is the same in Germany. No mention of a SID anywhere.

"callsign descend to FL290, call radar on 123,425 goodbye" given by the french controllers all the time the callsign being said very slowly as well as the word descend but then the flight level together with the frequency in such a rapid manner wizz ze very euh frenchy accent euh...that's unacceptable really, you can give maybe a heading with a frequency change ut certainly not a flight level given the very few margin in a 1000ft RVSM environment.

Otherwise these "with you", "blocked" (just to be smarter than anyone else as anyway if no answer the controller will repeat and such "blocked" will use RT space), "who's calling?!" that you'll get maybe 50% of the time on first contact with a french controller. And last but not least, ton first contact to an approach controller wou give the information letter from the last ATIS, why would you give the QNH on top as anyway the controller will issue the QNH on first descent to an altitude...the british controllers ask you about it and will issue QNH almost everytime a further descent to an other altitude is given, this is a waste of time as well, believe me, all BA pilots do the same and its a pain when you have 15 airplane to monitor and someone is telling you his life on the VHF, almost giving the numbers of bolts in his aeroplane...:}

kepp it simple, in modern world, where ATIS gives you the QNH, stop saying that on the frequency, just say "...Aapproach, callsign, passing flight level 200, descending to FL160, information S". the aircraft type is on request by most approach places but anyway the controller has a strip of paper with all the infos which are correct.

Thank you!

So, just keep it non-standard then?;)

PP