Capt Chambo

This is one of those areas that needs ICAO to resolve one way or the other. We should either all fly metric or FL. Having worked for many years in that in-between airspace where the ATCOs had to transition a/c from/to metric/FL, I know that it is another of those "holes" just waiting to line up to cause ..... And if we could get the politics out of the equation then the whole system would be a deal safer. Let's face it, the countries still persisting with metric levels are in the minority. In the meantime, fly safe when transitioning.

On the beach

Quite recently for military now using CAP 413 this has crept in a lot...

"XXX downwind to ehh... Low approach, overshoot, go around"

Also as others have eluded to is 'runway 06, QFE etc etc' 'roger is that left hand or right hand circuits'? :ugh:

@A32Oriental
Fair comment :ok:
Not fully conversant with ICAO doc but this seems a bit vague. What does "recent change" mean ? Is it when you've been doing left hand circuits & then been given a right hand one ?
Suppose you've had left & right circuits going simultaneously for 30 mins. - who says what & where ? :confused:
Is this supposed to be for traffic already in the circuit or does it apply to joiners as well ?
From a personal point of view, I'm happy for the circuit direction to be given in each position report, whatever it is - it's not unknown for joiners to go the wrong way :E

Concurrent left and right hand circuits are not that uncommon at uncontrolled aerodromes in the UK. Gliders one way, power another with microlights inside the larger power circuit at lower circuit height. And as for the the helicopters... This is usually stated in the published aerodrome information.

As an aside rule of the air 14 states:
(2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.
(5) Paragraphs (2) and (4) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.

When two gliders are on final to an uncontrolled runway, and the first lands, what is the second glider supposed to do?

P.S My favourite instruction from ATC after having received multiple heading changes to get me thoroughly lost when flying VFR in class D airspace is to be told 'resume own navigation'.

Was flying through Cairo FIR the other week (now theres a whole new thread by itself!) and the controller asked an aircraft to SQWAK ident on handover to him. The American female replied

"SQWAKING XXXX with a blaster"!?

Now in amongst the usual radio calls stepping on one another, the controller did not have a scooby and asked a couple more times for an ident, to which came the same reply!:ugh:

Probably not one of the best places in the world at the moment to start talking about blasting things anyway!

I've watched three gliders land abrest within ~15s; at a pinch another couple could have done the same.

Didn't especially annoy me, more amused me..

My instruction to US crew -

"callsign, descend FL110, expedite through FL150"

The readback -

"roger, down to eleven an' we'll scream through fifteen, here we go.."

:cool: Yee ha..

Similar situation a few years back - a US carrier #1 of a sequence of 10 told to maintain high speed on descent and min 180kts to 5 miles final - readback was "Let the good tahms roll" - then proceeded to cross 10 miles final at 6000 ft and no show of getting onto the ground so he annnounced he was entering a right hand orbit to loose height. Seemed a bit put out to be vectored straight across the airport at 5000 ft and made number 10. :=

ICAO Annex 10 vol II, "any level based on QNE shall be preceded by words 'FLIGHT LEVEL'" or some to that extent?

FD (the un-real)

Any time a pilot says "if able".....:ugh:

French speaking controllers....

Two days ago on a flight from LGW to DBV we where cleared direct TRA.
However, using the name of the VOR with heavy french accent will not be understood at all by us.

The conversation went like this:

ATC: ABCXXX Cleared direct Trasadingen (spoken with heavy french accent)
Us: Say point again for ABCXXX?
ATC: Trasadingen (even faster)
Us: Say again for ABCXXX!
ATC: Trasadingen ... Tango Romeo Alpha.
Us: Direct Tango Romeo Alpha, ABCZXXX
ATC: That's Correct.
-----

Later on when handed off to Swiss:
Us: Swiss Good Evening, ABCXXX, FL370, Direct Tango Romeo Alpha.
ATC: ABCXXX Good Evening, Maintain FL370, Direct Trasadingen (now the pronunciation is different but still not understandable)
Us: Maintain FL370 and say rest of message for ABCXXX?
ATC: Direct TAAAANGOOOO...RRRROOOMEOOO....ALPHAAA.. (Sloowly)
----

Why do controllers insist on using names of VOR's that are obviously hard to comprehend unless you're a native speaker? And our Callsign clearly should give clues to the controller that we aren't native.

I couldn't agree more. But the US controllers should be accommodating in this regard also.

"ABC123, fully ready"
Is this everyones pet gripe? Come on TRE's, get it sorted. Or maybe it's a flying school issue, it seems particularly prevalent in airlines with a younger pilot age profile.

ATC: "ABC123, is MAG/Omelo/GMH etc on your flightplan?"
ABC123: "stand-by" (or just silence).
Next time why not read your flightplan in advance and know where you're going?

"Hello London, ABC123 FL360 direct STU"
Whatever about non-locals to London ATC, can't at least the locals read the AIP about what/what not to correctly transmit?

"London, a very good morning to you, ABC123 FL360 (and probably direct somewhere)"
A simple "hello" or "good morning" will do, someone else may like to transmit before the morning is out.

"London, a very good morning to you, uhhh, sorry, in fact a very good afternoon to you"
Now it's getting silly, please can I have my turn before I reach 30 west?

"ABC123 request FL360 if available"
Glad you added that in, otherwise you may have been given it anyway. Nice of you to inform the ATCO you'd rather not collide with someone in your desire to be at 360.

"ABC123 requesting FL360 today (if available)"
Ah that clears it up, now everyone is clear you want 360 now, today, not on your late Malaga next Tuesday week.

"ABC123 standing-by for descent"
Really? that's nice. D'you want it now or in 100NM? Don't be shy, just ask for it, the correct phraseology is "Request descent".

"ABC123 request"
Oooh, a puzzle this one as always. Do you want a new FL, runway infomation or airplay of "Danger Zone" by Kenny Loggins? Must be a lot of shy pilots out there, but don't be, just ask for what you want.

ATIS: "Initial contact with approach with callsign only"
"Approach, ABC123, good morning to you, descending to 3000ft on qnh 1010, heading 100 degrees, speed 180 kts"
Is reading the bloody ATIS so difficult? In the mean time, as you spout forth your ignorance, I've been left high as the g/s disappears below.

Alt Crz Green, whilst agreeing with all the other points you make, I beg to differ on this one! On a longish sector we don't always know every single waypoint on the flightplan (when we do the FMC route check before departure it's done like the ATC Flight Plan Route with airway designators etc). So sometimes if we are asked (especially if one is not that familiar with the route which is possible) we have to scroll through the route to answer the question. So you might find us saying standby from time to time (obviously there shouldn't be silence) before we can answer the question. Ok I agree that ideally we should know but it's not always that simple.

Don't know where some of the points you mention come from, especially the "Request" thing on it's own!

AIP reading
 

Please when flying to an airport new for you please get some information about standar procedures in it. In GCLP we expect you to be ready for departure when you reach the holding point, so if you need extra time let our mate at GMC know and they will give you instructions to wait on the holding bay so as the traffics behind can overtake you.
"We will need X minutes at the holding bay" could perfectly fit
THANKS

NATIVE or not native
 

You should recall all information available for your flight before take off, including VOR names, and close airports... just in case!
Then you should understand anything in any "strange accent" because you expect these names to appear.
NATIVE controllers we try to understand your ·foreign accents as well.

I bellieve they dont
 

We are trying to collect how often the crews of that certain Irish low cost company ask for things they should know.
Please contact you unions and Professional associations as we can handle an european control complain against. it is not safe neither under rules to depart an airport without the whole flight plan route information as updated as possible,
We will help those pilots and will help passengers and will help ourselves doing so.
THNKS!!

With those management :
Knowledge of how ATC works is not needed to run an airline! | EGATS

No hope...

This is not always possible. Our company SOPS state we cannot enter the active runway to depart until we have "Secure" from the Cabin Crew. Occasionally the Secure is late if they have had a problem with a passenger etc.

What sorts of things are you referring to here?

Surely safer to ask if in doubt - advocacy?

Really? Then why do we have charts? Rather than VOR names why not use the identifier for easier understanding? Is it safe for pilots to recall all information? I think not!

I have used "Tango Romeo Alpha" instead of "Trasadingen". But when i give "Tange Romeo Alpha" most time (about 97%) reply was "Roger direct Trasadingen" (even foreign pilots Air China, Korean Air, Ryan Air)...

And if the pilot have a problem reading back "Trasadingen" my next message will be "direct Trasadingen Tango Romeo Alpha"...

cheers

Johannes

Hello.
That's good to hear that at least ATC is understandable that not everyone has years of experience and knows the names of each and every VOR. I guess it also depends on how fast it is read out and degree of accent. Believe my most of us are all trying to improve every aspect of our professionalism each time we fly, ATC is just one of those things.

Regards,
Proxus

When Delivery give me the ATC clearance, and then ask me to... "call when fully ready," I call fully ready. Often happens on busy days in the USA.

Long haul flight deck. 30 pages of FMS flight plan, and 20 pages of plog. A complex SID can take 4 pages of FMS alone. You need to remember that.

People do this on change over of FIR. ie If cleared to STU from the Irish FIR or Oceanic. ie not making the assumption that the 2 FIRs have communicated. The eastern med and the mayhem there and Africa makes pilots wary of the assumption that adjacent FIRs communicate.


I agree, but, not everywhere is the UK, or the USA, or Europe. If I launched into a complex request over China, or Brazil, or USSR asking to go 6 miles right of track, then back on track at TGZ, then heading 270 for 20 miles, I guarantee that I will get a long silence then a "say again." Saying "Request" Ts' up the controller that a non normal one is on its way.

You are correct, but in defence of others, that "Initial contact with approach with callsign only" request, is only ever made at LHR. Nowhere I have ever been, all round the world, does ATC made that request except at LHR going to 126.9. It is a UK thing.

Tiny England is just that, tiny. The world is a big place and it happens differently everywhere, and everywhere is different from everywhere else. Sometimes that nasty foreign stuff impinges on your tiny world and irritates the life out of you.

I will try harder, if you agree to go to counselling.

Also on the ATIS of SPL Approach if i'm not mistaken, and while I'm at it...really annoing to have (UK-)operators checking in with their whole lifestory (Speed, Heading, QNH, FL, FL cleared to, Acft type) during an inbound-rush. I really only need your heading and speed, and only if assigned by the previous controller.

All,

May I suggest a list of standard, "non-standard" phraseologies...then we can talk about the "non-standard", standard "non standard phraseologies!"

It's a big world. That is the beauty of it.

Anyway, if this is your major problem...controllers or pilots, then you have more than that to worry about!!!

TB.

I wouldn't mind doing a spin over XYZ in a Cessna 152 but only in VMC and with no one below. But to expect someone to do that in an airliner is asking for disaster. :}

Show this page to the trainee Spin (flight) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

"Fully Parked" used if no guidance to pull all the way on to stand but might look like we are from the tower, or if no APU and waiting for ground power before shutting down engines etc etc etc

Actually, that is one of the few non-UK specialities. Well, elsewhere it is not approach but rather director (feeder), but the same still applies.

Not non-standard, but pilots who request descent then, a minute later,when several aircraft below have been vectored out their way, say, "We'll call you leaving." :mad:
Big temptation to say, "Descent clearance cancelled , maintain FL360 to the hold." and put everyone back on own nav.




:ok:
There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy

to bArt2

i never met any *a couple of spins *or *bring the speed down*in the phraseology-sounds like a James Bond talking on the frequency.Not professionally,let alone saying you were talking to a crew that probably only has ICAO English level 4.
Ur trainee was getting irritated?Show him the documents.
And you probably noticed-was no problem at all for the crew to understand what he was saying when started to use aviation language.

Sorry bArt2-it wasnt ur trainee,i only noticed.anyway i was trying to say that some people shud think before talk on the fqcy

Lady-ATC I hope your spoken English is a bit more understandable than your SMS-speak here :O