My clearance today (given whilst lined up and in the same transmission as my take off clearance) began:

"Remain outside controlled airspace".

I was already in controlled airspace........

"ABC123 descend Flight Level two seven zero"

"Roger, descending two seven zero ABC123 "

"ABC123 confirm thats FLIGHT LEVEL two seven zero"

"I say again we are descending two seven zero ABC123"

etc etc etc..........:ugh:

Shouldnt it be

"ABC123 descend to Flight Level Two Seven Zero"

Lets just add another to (two) in there....


TT

ATC: "(callsign) squawk ident."

Pilot: SILENCE :ugh:

Maybe it is hard to grasp, but what is not required at one airport, is required at the other. So just sometimes it happens you do or do not mention something because it is out of the ordinary. As well some calls are techniques which proved to be clear in most of the world. Therefore, when you have crews who fly worldwide making a call which works with 98% of ATC worldwide, please don't be annoyed by this. It is not bad will, simply at some stage you are forced so often to phrase non-standard just to a have clear and therefore more safe operation that when you fly in an area where CAP is the standard you kind of lose what is called standard.

Traffic2
In the UK :
descend flight level 270
descend to altitude 2000 feet
I realise this may only be a uk standard

louby

Where is the land of touques and poteen?

I sure hope pilots in the land of poteen don't believe this to be the case. :}

loubylou.....TT works in his own world, where rules and standards exist purely to be manipulated according to who he intends to wind up :eek: :E :p

It normally works mind.......

My pet hate is giving a pilot a frequency change instruction, which is immediately followed by someone else calling for something. (Not an emergency!)

Typically when I re-iterate to the first pilot his instruction, he has already left the frequency, so everyone else gets delayed whilst I check he has arrived with the new sector.

This is a rampant issue for GA pilots in receipt of a LARS service.

Kiltie....

[quote=ATC: "(callsign) squawk ident."

Pilot: SILENCE :ugh:[/quote]


What do you expect?......perfectly acceptable!!!!!!

"Request start in accordance with our slot".

WTF does that mean!:ugh::confused:

Giving a pilot a clearance and before he reads it ack another aircraft requests his clearance. Listen before transmitting please !!!!!

For everybody that is annoyed by us american pilots whining about ride reports and light chops while flying in the CONUS. I'm going to try to shed some light here...

Most domestic operations in the US, suffice their wx info pakcet requirements with giving us only the TAF/METARS of DEP,DEST,ALTN and AREA airports... nobody here gets a nice SIGWX chart or any other chart for that matter.

Some of us have turb plot messages but for the most part no charts at all.

Thats why the constant questioning about ride reports.... we really dont have the info in the cockpit.

Tower to a/c on first contact (inbound) : 'ABC123 continue approach"

Tower to a/c taxing to hold, after being cleared to hold by ground: "ABC123 continue to the hold" !!!

Talk about tits on a bull!!!!!!!!!!!

downwindabeam: you might wanna have a look at http://euro.wx.propilots.net if you're looking for SIGMETs and stuffs like that...

As for the subject of the topic, my pet hate is:
ATC: callsign, contact London xxx.xxx
Pilot: bye

[QUOTE]Kiltie....

I was under the impression that transponder operating instructions were required to be readback in full.

Likewise. Can anyone show any get-out-clause printed in MATS or CAP413? I certainly can't.

How would you otherwise know that the correct callsign knows to squawk ident and someone else hasn't taken the instruction in error?

I'm with Kiltie on this one... Not replying to a "squawk ident" instruction is plain rude if nothing else... especially as 9 times out of 10 it is issued as a first exchange of transmissions between a radar unit and an aircraft.

I'd like to get a verbal response as well as the actual physical response to let me know you have heard me and we have two way comms.

Any pilot that claims they are too busy to read back the instruction should not be flying!!

What do you expect?......perfectly acceptable!!!!!!
[/quote]




LIKLIK

I can't copy the ref. for this but CAP493 appendix E p9 specifies:-

Pilot readback of RTF messages
SSR operating instructions

Controllers are to prompt a pilot if a readback is not immediately forthcoming


Also in CAP 413 RT Manual (for pilots and ATC)

Is it really that bad to say you are "ready for departure in turn" when at the hold and ready for departure behind other aircraft?

It may not be CAP413 standard phraseology but at least you're letting ATC know that you're aware of the other aircraft waiting and not trying to jump the queue?

I think we use it more at my home airfield as the FIS guy sometimes gets shirty if we just say "ready for departure" when there are other aircraft waiting at the hold. Maybe I should adjust my language and suffer the wrath..?

I have to say, the majority of RT 'hates' posted on here don't bother me in the slightest, however, after giving tfc info, 'Got him on TCAS' does irritate as there is nothing ATC can do with that info. If you are not visual, it doesn't count. I am sure there is plenty that we do that irritate pilots too. A lot of it is down to not understanding why it HAS to be said and that applies to both sides.

In the first instance it implies that you're not cleared to land so it's very useful! Unless you'd prefer "go around I say again go around acknowledge" instead?

Thankfully we never hear " If you read this transmission squawk ident" then :p

However, Both the ICAO R/T manual and the local UK CAP 413 require either a readback or an acknowledgement of an instruction to squawk ident.

Regards,

DFC

This is all getting quite worrying :ooh:

same old same old, long time reader... etc. But I just HAD to add my two cents to this thread...

I'm surprised it hasn't been posted already but...
ATC: "ABC123 standby"
ABC123: "Copied, we'll stand by"

In frustration with one particular repeat offender I added
"ABC123 standby, I'll call you back"
to which he responds quite casually
"Okay, copied. We'll standby and wait for your call shortly...":{

'

Boy u must be busy! I present you this tool: "ABC123 standby, BREAK, ABC234 cleared whatever...."

Have to agree, as I see it every region seems to develop their own brand of phraseology, I remember as an ex-air traffic controller (US), my check pilot in the UK hammering me on my poor phraseology, he was dead on and I will always remember Mike at Caledonian. It seems to me that many of the worst habits seem to develop from Asia, like:

Approaching level....

We have him on TCAS...

Charlie, charlie...

Fully ready...

If available...

Bye...Germany?

Blocked...USA

Track shortening...HKG

Pass your message?? UK

On the good side, US pilots DO make turbulence reports, in Asia, such reports nonexistent.

Foghorn, we hear a lot of these "blocked" things in India and in the Middle East, where pilots change frequencies, press the mike, and fire the message. No listening or regard for whoever might be talking to the controller at that moment.:*

Geeez. What a depressing thread. Seems that no matter who I talk to, I will be upsetting someone. Guess CPDLC for all will solve the problem!! :*:*

I dunno, I think a bunch of you folks would go absolutely nutty listening to a typical weekend's chatter in the States. Standard phraseology, Whazzat???

"We have 'em on TCAS/Fishfinder" etc. -- Useless, please look away from the screen and out the window, let me know when you SEE the traffic.

Lately, every other turbine aircraft seems to need to tell me they will be ready at the end when they're still a half mile from the end on the taxiway. No kidding, you got both engines running? :rolleyes:

When changing freqs, LISTEN 15 seconds, then speak if appropriate.

If you hear me say "Nxxx, #4 standby", now is NOT a good time to ask for a shortcut. Your wish is suddenly on the very bottom of my "to do" list;
in very small print

;)

And another one...........

Inbound MAN, Shannon says - descend now, be level FL270, 10 miles before LIFFY.

Has the already low block standing agreement changed again ?

We will be level at LIFFY, we do not wish to squander another 200kgs of fuel being level 10 miles before LIFFY thankyou :sad:

thats a dangerous game to be playing javelin...

what if the level restriction is for seperation?? what if the shannon controller has another aircraft behind/in front that relies on that 10 miles before liffey?? Level restrictions aren't given just to piss you pilots off... they are given for a reason, normally a very good one!! someday you're attitude to them may bite you in the proverbial a**...

"Morning Ground, Callsign, B737, Stand x, information y, QNH, request clearance"

"Cleared to etc. information y, QNH"

"Cleared to, information y, QNH"

20 seconds later

"Callsign, request push and start""

"Callsign, say again stand number"

"Callsign, stand x"

"Callsign, push and start approved, information y, QNH"

"Callsign, push and start approved, information y, QNH"

I guess its all standard but just how many times do we need to tell ATC that we have the :mad: ATIS and QNH? The words Polly and Parrot sometimes comes to mind!

Javelin that is an absolutely disgraceful attitude which is an admission of a direct compromise of flight safety on your part.

I would like to re-assure controllers that such scoffing at a clear ATC instruction with intended non-compliance is extremely rare in my experience.

Me: " AAA Control, ABC123 FL120 H220 degrees"

ATC: "ABC123 good morning, turn right ten degrees, report new heading"

Errr what's that all about, does it just slip out due to habit or is it some kind of SOP?

Artie Fufkin wrote:

Turning that on its head....

Very recently, aircraft called for clearance, acknowledged the current ATIS gave me the correct QNH which I noted. When the crew later called for taxy, (no change in either runway or QNH) I said "Taxy to Holding Point XX" reply was "Taxy to Holding Point XX, errr err err Runway YY, QNH zzzz" - Reading back things not said!

:ok::ok:

DD

Let's not forget that standard phraseology for an ATCer is just that. For a pilot standard phraseology changes depending on where in the world he happens to be! I am all for as standard as possible, but we do hear variances even at different UK airfields, let alone what we hear once we have left these hallowed shores. Just a point in our defence!:ok:

PP

Visual on top
 

To issue a VSA I need to hear "visual" as in "can maintain continuous visual reference to the ground or water etc..." "Visual on top" is so frustrating - can't give you anything based on that cobber!

But USA military pilots definitely get my vote for bizarre RT:

"Comin' at ya, abeam the numbers, good gear, goin' nowhere" (Southern drawl)

Heard it 14 years ago on my first TWR rating, can still hear it plain as anything. For a minute there, I wasn't even sure it was English, then my supervisor managed to stop laughing long enough to say "base, 3 greens, full stop". Guess I haven't watched Top Gun enough.....:confused:

and the Shannon controller sees that you are unable to comply with the clearance by reaching the level 10 miles late so the next day they tell you to be level 20 miles before liffy. :)

How much fuel does that cost? :D

Can't believe that someone would not comply with a clearance without telling ATC first.

Regards,

DFC

Also surely level by clearances are a limit and not a target!

I thought I would wait a while........ I asked the fine gent in Shannon why 10 before. He said that sometimes aeroplanes didn't make the restriction and he prefered to hand traffic to MAN level. The remark about the BSA is my question, not a reply on air.

I agree, we sometimes get early descent to avoid conflict, but usually we have already spotted this on TCAS and also by being observant as to who is who coming off the ocean. In this case, I normally offer a level change to help.

While the BSA's work in reducing holding at destination, all I ask is for some consistency. If it's 10 before, publish it, let's not make it a restriction on the whim of a controller :ok:

Out of work, I sit on an airspace group to help coordinate ATC and GA aircraft. I also do Fam Flights for ATC so really, I do my bit to help !