Direct.no.speed,

Do you work in a Tower or Centre?

Direct no speed, you've just described my last two jobs.

The assessment days in Melbourne are fast approaching, anybody out there coming down for the test?

Does anybody know when the next training course is meat to start (after the one starting in Feb)?

N

There's a course starting the end of May.

Keep in mind, it could be 6 weeks after the assessment by the time you get an offer. Then you have to get a class 3 medical before you start employment and that could take as long as 3 months, I've been waiting 5 weeks so far. I rang CASA just before Christmas and they were still working on the backlog from late November, my paperwork wasn't even in the system then.

So don't expect to be starting this half of 2012. I'm not saying you won't, but don't hold your breath.

Spoke to CASA this yesterday, they are scanning medicals from around 9-10 December at present. Told to ring in another 2 weeks to chase up mine.

Hey everyone.
I'm thinking of giving ATC a go, I think I would really enjoy it. but I have a few questions.

1. From what I have read from this thread, management seems to be really poor, but can someone explain why that is??

2. If management is as bad as everyone here is saying, what upsides are there to the job if your willing to put up with poor management? So what im asking is why do you like/love your job??

3. I have a PPL, does that make the start of the course any easier study wise? or does it not really make any difference??

4. There is a lot of posts saying tower is really good, but I want to know what enroute is like?? Any guys/gals here do it and really like it?? I thought it sounded really interesting.

5. A few people here are saying to get down and check out a tower/center, but I called up airsevices the other day to try and get a visit to melb center/tower to talk to some controllers, but I was told they don't do that. The best they could offer me was a spot in the GA information night next month because I'm a pilot. Anyone here had any luck getting to visit melb tower/center??

Hopefully you guys can answer some of my questions.
Thanks.

1. A CEO unwilling to hear anything but "yes", who sees unproven technology & "creative" solutions as easy fixes (see point 1) & rules as something to be gamed, bent & warped (see point 1).

2. Personally I find the job interesting, stimulating & challenging, I work with a bunch of intelligent & interesting people, & there's minimal office politics. Unfortunately those who do like that sort of thing are often the ones who climb the greasy pole to escape controlling & participate in point 1.

Day to day you can largely ignore what management are up to & what happens at work stays at work, unless something really bad or unusual happens.

3. I'm not overly familiar with the current course but it'd only be basic stuff that was relevant, so not exactly hard to grasp or learn. Might mean an easy ride for a short time but don't bet on it.

4. Most of us work enroute so it can't be that bad! I've only worked enroute so can't personally compare but I enjoy it - the sectors I work have plenty of variety.

5. Unfortunately we work in a "sterile" environment these days & you don't get in without a valid operational reason. Take up the offer of the GA info night as you should get the opportunity to talk to an active controller who hosts them & have a tour of the ops room.

Thanks for the reply le Pingouin.

So it seems to be a good job then, it's just the bloke in charge can't run the place well? So do you see management improving in the foreseeable future? or is it something you have come to expect and just live with it/deal with it?

Hmmm sounds like a job I would enjoy then. I take it you don't stick with just the 1 sector? Does it change per shift or something??
Also just wondering what sort of overtime do you guys do, is it like an hour or so every few shifts? Or do they want you working several hours extra most of your shifts?

Ahh yeh fair enough, I suppose with security issues and I'm sure you guys don't want any added distractions. I think I will go to the GA info night then, might be a good chance to check out the place and talk to someone in person.

In the mean time I think i'll apply and have a crack at it.

Too much focus on looking for external business "opportunities" & too little focus on "core business". You just live with it & I doubt it will change much any time soon.

We work in groups that control multiple sectors - initially you hold one rating but gain more over time until you hold all in your group. What you work generally depends on who is due for a break from the console, so usually you work more than one sector in a shift. Also we combine sectors when it's quiet.

Overtime is mainly a whole shift to replace someone who has called in sick or a blank shift in the roster, so you're getting called in on your days off. Occasionally you do an extra hour or two at the end of a shift if there's something out of the ordinary like bad thunderstorms.

It's certainly not a job for everyone but if you don't try you'll never know. Do the GA night if you can.

If you get past the phone interview stage, I'd suggest trying again for a visit. I rang the 1800 number on Airservices' website and told them I had an assessment coming up. They put me straight through to the ops room at Brisbane, and Jumbo organised for me to visit the following week. I spent about 3 or 4 hours listening in in different groups and up in the tower.

CEO = No ATC experience, bonus driven, management layers below him tell him what he wants to hear, certain areas of the business are in a shambles and are being held together by work-face controllers, techs and support staff.

ATC's are results driven, you get real time feedback of how you are performing. You are constantly monitored as to your performance. If you f@ck up you pay a penalty. If you continue to f@ck up you can lose your licence, it can and does happen. ATC's get their nose out of joint when managers f@ck up and they don't take responsibility for their f@ck ups.

ATC's get their nose out of joint when managers lie about ATC's during EBA negotiations, ASA staff numbers have exploded in the back office but continue to decline ATC wise despite a significant growth in movements.

Once you are rated and feeling comfortable you don't take any work home with you. There is a real sense of accomplishment when you are doing your job well. When we had the appropriate staffing levels there was scope to get involved in projects etc.

Yes, very much so, any spare brain capacity that you can allocate to the more difficult learning tasks of the course will help you.

I've done en-route most of the time with a stint in a tower. Tower I couldn't stand and couldn't wait to get out of there (maybe it had to do with the aerodrome atmosphere, the facilities in the tower falling apart or being cooped up in a small work area with the same people day after day?) En-route is extremely varied, you can be doing full radar sectors, full procedural sectors, a mixture of both. There may be sectors that have a heavy workload during the night shift, sectors that are busiest along the times that business people want to travel etc

Do the GA info night, it's better than nothing. Unfortunately those nights show you around when there's not much going on, you don't get much of a sense of the job.

To those experienced Australians ATC out there,

Do you know how difficult it is to move up in Levels once you get your licence? How long does it take to go from Level1 to L2, 3, 4... 9? Is it based on merit or just number of years spent in the job?

Cheers

It used to be automatic, up a level every year of service. Now it's dependant on your 'work performance' i.e. how many sick days you take.

Journeymen controllers are being pushed onto training on the next sector on their group before they have had proper consolidation or are ready to do so. This is due to serious staffing problems on most groups. You'd think in return for achieving extra ratings that you'd skip a level or two.................not likely.

In rare cases you may advance two levels in one go, but I mean rare. You would have to do some serious ar$e licking to achieve that.

I have recommended 3 controllers for accelerated advancement - all were approved. All had performed work above that of those around them. They hadn't asked for or been offered advancement if they did the work. Funny how working a little bit better and being recognised for doing so is called arse-licking.

And there have plenty who have been passed over for an extra increment, despite putting in considerable extra effort. It's too dependent on the particular manager to be fair. A very flawed system.

Weeeeell Topdrop, great stuff :D And I have personal information of controllers who were promised one increment, not accelerated, and were gibbed in the process to have the 'promising' manager deny ever agreeing to the one increment let alone accelerated. Depends where you work and who your friends are I guess??

That there is not a standard process for these issues is a problem in itself is it not?

Then again if new controllers weren't sold out by their compadres in the first place with the 73 increments required now there wouldn't be a problem would there, yet again, that's a whole nother story isn't it?

If the Jouneymen to FPC process had stayed in place a controller gaining more ratings would be appropriately remunerated and there wouldn't be a problem would there??

Yep, the subjective 'working a little better' works well doesn't it?

Is it appropriate that for a controller to progress through ATC pay scales they have to do non ATC things?

Where I worked, all controllers received the next increment every year - those that warranted it received accelerated advancement.
could also be described as one where you get the increment no matter what you do - or don't do :ugh::ugh::ugh:
It all depends on your perspective.

ATC Interviews
 

Hi guys, wondering if anyone from the interviews in Melbourne in November has heard anything?
My referee was contacted but still haven't heard anything.
Cheers

Increments
 

Could it be that you were unwittingly the recipient of the licking Topdrop???

Let's just say I wasn't born yesterday. :}

Increments
 

Not correct. You get your pay increase on your 1st rating/endorsement aniversary. Sometimes the pay increase is back paid due to the paper work not getting put in quickly or their is a hold up in Canberra for one reason or another. In any case, the increments are automatic. So therefore L9 takes 9 years to achieve.

I also have recommended controllers for accelerated advancement. Unfortunately, not all were accepted by the GM ATC. Of course in those cases I was blamed, even though I have no control over that outcame. No arse-licking required or accepted by me either.

Hey Plaz, is GTS, OJTI, Technical Specialist non-ATC things? I think its all part and parcel of the organisation of providing ATC services. To have controllers you've got to train them, develop procedures, etc.



DP

The information on this page is pretty current. Online application > online testing > telephone interview > assessment centre.

I believe the recruitment team travel around to the different capital cities to conduct rounds of assessment centres, if you do get that far. You may or may not have a choice as to where you go for the assessment centre. E.g. I know of a person from Melbourne that did their assessment centre in Sydney.

A non-aviation background shouldn't be a problem; if you've got the skillset and what it takes to be an ATC, you've got what it takes. If you don't, you don't.

The online testing is similar to the SHL testing many companies use in their graduate recruitment processes. Also, this thread has quite a bit of useful information.

Good luck

Brisbane centre courses
 

Just wondering if anyone out there is able to provide some info on the courses being run out of Brisbane.

ie, general start times, facilities (classrooms, syndicate / study rooms), after hours access, gym?? and the like.

Starting course in a couple of months and trying to get a bit better idea of the daily routine and layout so I can get try and figure out a work/play/rest/travel ratio

Cheers

Hi Madbrid
I did my training in Melbourne so start times may be different, but we started at 7am at the earliest, 11am at the latest (they had courses spread out their start times to accommodate the sim).

Theres a couple of class rooms - you will probably be assigned one for your course so you don't have to move around. There's an area behind the TV room you could do some private study, or set up downstairs in the cafeteria (outside of lunchtime theres always plenty of room there). These areas (aside from the classrooms) will be accessible 24/7.

There is also a gym on site you will be able to sign up for once you get here that has all hours access.

Hope that helps

Courses in Brisbane
 

Hi Madbrid, and congrats on getting onto an atc training course.

In Brisbane, they are set up to have 2 courses at any time, due to the need to share the sim. You will work a basic 9-5 for the first 8 weeks while you do the introductory theory component of the course. Then you will be in the sim for the next 12 months basically, and work a 0700-1412 or 1148-1900 shift week about.

The training is normally delivered with about a 1 hour sim pre brief, followed by 5 hours in the sim (2 hours playing pilot and 2 playing atc) followed by a 1 hour debrief. There are 4 modules that you need to pass in the sim; DTI, non radar, radar and combined ops. There are also periods when theory trainng is also delivered concurrent with the sim program, for example, when you do the non radar module, you will also do your sep standards theory,which, naturally, is a critical subject.

The Brisbane training is done in the operations building ( unlike Melbourne, which is done in a separate stand alone facility) so you have easier access to
the gym, stand down areas, canteen etc etc used by the operational staff.

Good luck with the course.

Hi, can anyone give me idea how long it may take to start the course if i apply now?(if i successfully go through all steps & i live in melb)
and i am from non-English speaking background but as i finished my degree in finance n staying here for 7 yrs , so i am pretty ok in communicating but do i have to have a decent accent for the job ?

mrshaika,

You'll have to be assessed against an ICAO English language test which, I think, only RMIT does in Melbourne. I'm not sure what the citizenship criteria are.

"Training duration

Applicants with no prior experience (ab initio):
* Learning Academy: 12 months approximately
* Final field training: 4 – 6 months approximately"
source

However, it is my understanding that tower courses tend to get through the learning academy in less than 12 months, and the enroute courses may take slightly longer than 12 months.

ICAO requires ATCs to have at ICAO English Level 4 or above, and if you have been in Australia for 7 years, then chances are you probably should be at least at that level. However, the best thing to do is to contact [email protected] directly and ask for yourself.

"To be eligible for training, applicants are required to meet the mandatory criteria at the time of submitting their application. Applicants are required to:
...
* be an Australian or New Zealand Citizen or hold permanent residency status in Australia"
source

Thnkx for quick reply, I am holding australian citizenship so i am eligible on that term. But how long it takes for the interview process ? means duration between day 1(job application) and Final notification that u r selected for training ? how many months 4/5 ?

From what I've heard from people just starting in the Academy, it's about 6 months at the moment. Prior to that, it was out to 14 months for some people (me and just about everyone else who started around the same time :()

Anyone had any feedback re: the next steps from the telephone interviews conducted 19-20 Jan?

Hi All,

I'm going through the application process at the moment as well. I had my phone interview before Christmas and have yet to hear anything else. The lady who conducted my interview told me I would be going through to the next round, which for me is a full assessment day in Brisbane sometime in late March. The wait is getting very hard. I am practising my mental arithmetic though!

To anyone who just came out of the college, what does the take home salary equate to? I,ve seen the annual salary but just wanted to know the after tax value, is it fortnightly,monthly? Thanks

The basic method of calculating the take home salary is no different from any other job really. Take the gross annual income, work out which tax bracket you belong to to find out how much tax you'll have to pay, and then subtract the tax from your gross annual income to find your net annual income. And then divide by the appropriate number of pay periods, which, in the case of the learning academy, is fortnightly. Of course, this does not take into account any deductions, levies, monies withholding etc, that may vary with your own individual circumstances.

This post is not financial advice.

The biggest thing I noticed during testing is the lack of background knowledge others had. Yes it is true you can get by, but if you show no interest I.e not visiting any towers etc, or having a basic knowledge of what atc is all about, you are setting yourself up to fail at the college.

This post is not financial advise.....

Really? Didn't sound like it either. Hope you have professional indemnity insurance saying stuff like that!!

New Here!!
 

Hi,

I have really found this forum very interesting and resourceful-Thanks a lot!

I have recently applied for the ATC in take for 2012 on the 30th of January 2012 as advertised on SEEK website-does anyone know when is this intake for?? its for en-route positions though here in Melbourne.

anyone else applied recently in January through seek?

will keep posted!

Cheers

I also applied about 2 weeks ago though not through seek, I applied directly on their websites job listing. Looking at the seek listing it looks exactly the same though. I'm really keen to start getting through the recruitment process but it's all a waiting game I guess!

good luck and hopefully the norm has been around a month's time from the application date-you receive an invitation to complete online assessments and considering the closing date is 12th of March-its a waiting game.