MACC go on strike
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MACC go on strike
After reading about what people had to say about their meetings with Mr Everett the main consensus of opinion for people at MACC appears to be that they dont want to go go north and ideally they want to stay in Manchester. Without trying to sound too militant why are people not trying positive action such as striking? Maybe then NATS senior management would sit up and take notice of peoples wishes rather than just fob people off and hope things can be brushed under the carpet. From what I can deduce management know that basically people will rant and rave for a bit then just shrug their shoulders and accept it. Isn't it time to change this?
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Mr Radical Maybe they wont go on strike because there would have to be a national ballot and I think you would get
all support.(unless you use BA ground staff tactics).
All together now " You take the high road and I'll take the low road and I'll be in
land afore ye......."
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I don't mean to sound radical though I'm sure it comes across like that!
It's just a shame that all everybody seems to care about in this company is their own particular unit. If everybody stuck up for everybody else regardless off whether they're up in Scotland or down here at Swanwick we'd be a much more united workforce instead of the fragmented divided group we are now! Maybe I'm just being a bit too naive but don't we all pay our money into the same union who's supposed to represent every single one of us, not just the units with the most clout....? 
It's just a shame that all everybody seems to care about in this company is their own particular unit. If everybody stuck up for everybody else regardless off whether they're up in Scotland or down here at Swanwick we'd be a much more united workforce instead of the fragmented divided group we are now! Maybe I'm just being a bit too naive but don't we all pay our money into the same union who's supposed to represent every single one of us, not just the units with the most clout....?
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I was making a similar point earlier today mhk though not especially in reference to the move North.
If we hark back to the days pre-PPP most of us were dead against the move - to the point of threatening industrial action. fF we were so against and we had've walked out - or at least seriously planned to - the Government's hand would have been forced somewhat. *At least in theory*. This would have had to happen during the initial stages of PPP planning of course - anything after that would have been wholly attritional and probably ineffective.
My point is - we, generally speaking, moan and complain about things but,again generally speaking, when it comes to the push we compromise gladly and perhaps too easily.
And the same goes, to a certain extent, for the move from MACC. If we stood together as a whole unit then management will at least be forced to think again. That would be greatly undermined though should the rest of NATS not support MACC - a very real and maybe understandable possibility at the moment.
Who knows what the answer is at this stage?
What thing I have been wondering - since we're in dire straits financially at the moment where is the fiscal backing for the new centre going to come from? NATS can hardly be classed as a good investment and we're hardly good for yet another massive loan. So where's the cash coming from?
If we hark back to the days pre-PPP most of us were dead against the move - to the point of threatening industrial action. fF we were so against and we had've walked out - or at least seriously planned to - the Government's hand would have been forced somewhat. *At least in theory*. This would have had to happen during the initial stages of PPP planning of course - anything after that would have been wholly attritional and probably ineffective.
My point is - we, generally speaking, moan and complain about things but,again generally speaking, when it comes to the push we compromise gladly and perhaps too easily.
And the same goes, to a certain extent, for the move from MACC. If we stood together as a whole unit then management will at least be forced to think again. That would be greatly undermined though should the rest of NATS not support MACC - a very real and maybe understandable possibility at the moment.
Who knows what the answer is at this stage?
What thing I have been wondering - since we're in dire straits financially at the moment where is the fiscal backing for the new centre going to come from? NATS can hardly be classed as a good investment and we're hardly good for yet another massive loan. So where's the cash coming from?
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niteflight and mhk
Do you have any idea of how much money it would cost to replicate Manch's sectors here at Swanwick ? What have you got ... 10 sectors ? The NAS adaptation alone would cost millions. 10 new Lockheed Martin sectors plus a bit of spare would cost hundreds of millions.
Thought about why TC are bringing their system here and not getting LM type sectors ?
So you don't want to leave Manch. Not a problem. Get another job there as a non ATCO.
Industrial action ? To do what ? Go south ? Stay there ? Get more Luncheon Vouchers ?
Just choose your place of employment and give us peace. It will not be as an ATCO in the middle Manchester airport.
Do you have any idea of how much money it would cost to replicate Manch's sectors here at Swanwick ? What have you got ... 10 sectors ? The NAS adaptation alone would cost millions. 10 new Lockheed Martin sectors plus a bit of spare would cost hundreds of millions.
Thought about why TC are bringing their system here and not getting LM type sectors ?
So you don't want to leave Manch. Not a problem. Get another job there as a non ATCO.
Industrial action ? To do what ? Go south ? Stay there ? Get more Luncheon Vouchers ?
Just choose your place of employment and give us peace. It will not be as an ATCO in the middle Manchester airport.
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The only bloody reason we are being forced to that **** hole Prestwick is for political reasons!
We must have our own Parliament/Air Traffic facility/Money etc.....
They dont want to risk pissing off a few no marks in and around that part off Scotland ( and maybe elsewhere) so we must build a new centre there.
Why not Edinburgh?
Everyone aspires to a good life but we aint going to get that in and around Prestwick after moving from down here.
We have been told so many things over the last number of years including (from our last general manager) that it was unlikely to happen.
Down/Up/Not at all/Down again....... No wait Up..... we think.
If the staff at Prestwick/LATCC (as it was) were told that they were moving to a less desireable part of they country after being dicked around for years would they be happy?
NO!
AND A LOT FROM LATCC WERE NOT.
So why should we.
Now i see that although we are short we are being offered part time/sabbaticals to save money.
This is a company that has lost its way and is totally lacking in vision and leadership.
The move to Scotland is just one of many reasons for us here at MACC to feel angry and let down.
that part OF Scotland , my spelling leaves a lot to be desired after many bottles , several love interests and a sheep or 3 (they were for the cuddling afterwards).
Thankyou.
We must have our own Parliament/Air Traffic facility/Money etc.....
They dont want to risk pissing off a few no marks in and around that part off Scotland ( and maybe elsewhere) so we must build a new centre there.
Why not Edinburgh?
Everyone aspires to a good life but we aint going to get that in and around Prestwick after moving from down here.
We have been told so many things over the last number of years including (from our last general manager) that it was unlikely to happen.
Down/Up/Not at all/Down again....... No wait Up..... we think.
If the staff at Prestwick/LATCC (as it was) were told that they were moving to a less desireable part of they country after being dicked around for years would they be happy?
NO!
AND A LOT FROM LATCC WERE NOT.
So why should we.
Now i see that although we are short we are being offered part time/sabbaticals to save money.
This is a company that has lost its way and is totally lacking in vision and leadership.
The move to Scotland is just one of many reasons for us here at MACC to feel angry and let down.
that part OF Scotland , my spelling leaves a lot to be desired after many bottles , several love interests and a sheep or 3 (they were for the cuddling afterwards).
Thankyou.
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Surely it matters not a jot to you anyway Jocko0102 ... you're gonna be a 34 (or 35) year old ATPL student at Jerez this year anyway ain't ya ??
Good to see that we can still export world beating 'small man syndrome' Jocks from our little country. Who have an opinion and answer for everything.
I'd recommend people have a look at your previous posts .... there's quite a long list of targets that you have on your agenda ranging from Eastern Airways pilots to people asking about radio frequencies ... from airspace designers to your favourite topic of NATS Management. All get short shrift.
Not sure we even want you up here if it comes to pass anyway. The modifications to all the doors so you can get the chips on your shoulders through would cost us a fortune !!!
I'll defend your right to your opinion though. People can make up their own mind about you that way
Good to see that we can still export world beating 'small man syndrome' Jocks from our little country. Who have an opinion and answer for everything.
I'd recommend people have a look at your previous posts .... there's quite a long list of targets that you have on your agenda ranging from Eastern Airways pilots to people asking about radio frequencies ... from airspace designers to your favourite topic of NATS Management. All get short shrift.
Not sure we even want you up here if it comes to pass anyway. The modifications to all the doors so you can get the chips on your shoulders through would cost us a fortune !!!
I'll defend your right to your opinion though. People can make up their own mind about you that way
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2 six 4,
Thankyou for proving my point that the jokers at Swanwick think the whole world revolves around them! Don't even try and kid me, yourself or anybody else that if you were put in the situation whereby you were being told you were being moved 250 miles up the road you would quite happily accept it! You wouldn't! So don't start slating people at Manchester for wanting some sort of say in their future! What really p****s me off is the fact that the last time I was at Swanwick you lot were still moaning about how crap it was there and how you hated it and how the system was crap and BLAH BLAH BLAH! And now you have the gall to slate the Manch lot! Dearie me!
Thankyou for proving my point that the jokers at Swanwick think the whole world revolves around them! Don't even try and kid me, yourself or anybody else that if you were put in the situation whereby you were being told you were being moved 250 miles up the road you would quite happily accept it! You wouldn't! So don't start slating people at Manchester for wanting some sort of say in their future! What really p****s me off is the fact that the last time I was at Swanwick you lot were still moaning about how crap it was there and how you hated it and how the system was crap and BLAH BLAH BLAH! And now you have the gall to slate the Manch lot! Dearie me!
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Forgive me sticking my not very knowledgeable oar in, but can someone answer me this....
1) Are we as operational ATS staff not mobile grades?
2) Have we not known for years that MACC would eventually move?
1) Are we as operational ATS staff not mobile grades?
2) Have we not known for years that MACC would eventually move?
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I've seen my MACC colleagues in a new light since the announcement and I hope management get the message.
For the most part each is quietly developing a game plan in their own way , united by a common belief in the inability of Prospect to protect their interests.
I simply don't think management realise how many controllers they will lose until the one to one interviews start and even then many will want to keep their cards close to their chests for legal reasons.
You might not like the way Jocko puts his point but that doesn't mean he's wrong.
We all accept that MACC will close and go north.
There's no huff or puff - a lot of us will not move with the centre so we'll do what we need to do to secure a reasonable income. Striking is irrelevant besides our powder is too dry!
No we are not a mobile grade for the purposes of this exercise.
For the most part each is quietly developing a game plan in their own way , united by a common belief in the inability of Prospect to protect their interests.
I simply don't think management realise how many controllers they will lose until the one to one interviews start and even then many will want to keep their cards close to their chests for legal reasons.
You might not like the way Jocko puts his point but that doesn't mean he's wrong.
We all accept that MACC will close and go north.
There's no huff or puff - a lot of us will not move with the centre so we'll do what we need to do to secure a reasonable income. Striking is irrelevant besides our powder is too dry!
No we are not a mobile grade for the purposes of this exercise.
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Take the sabbaticals, then watch from your holiday as the whole bloody company crumbles.
If any further proof were needed of the lack of vision and total inability of the NATS beancounters to actually realise how vital controllers are to the business, this sorry episode is it.
P7
If any further proof were needed of the lack of vision and total inability of the NATS beancounters to actually realise how vital controllers are to the business, this sorry episode is it.
P7
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I don't think NATS'll lose as many controllers as you think MACC2, as with all previous contentious issues within NATS (although you have been moving for years) you'll huff and you'll puff and you'll huff and you'll puff........................then you'll go to Prestwick!
I'm afraid it's the same old story, lots of threats and hot air, but when it comes to the crunch......submission
I'm afraid it's the same old story, lots of threats and hot air, but when it comes to the crunch......submission
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I don't where the majority of MACC controllers live but I guess it's Cheshire. I've lived in Manchester and around ScATCC and I can tell you you'll be welcomed north of the boarder, your kids will get a better education and you can 3 times the house for your money.
Oh and the rush hour lasts 3 minutes.
Oh and the rush hour lasts 3 minutes.
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Some rather sad views being expressed but in many ways I understand why. If Manchester management had been half honest with their staff in the last 3 years much of this "debate" would not be taking place.
The final decision to move MACC into the then NSC was taken and published by the NATS board in October 2001. The fact that the Manchester management have failed to convey that simple fact and the associated business case is for MACC staff to ask of their managers.
It will be Prestwick and not another site because in addition to the fine MACC staff there will be over 600 of the present staff who will be working at NPC. Nobody has ever even contemplated a business case which moves the lot.
For the purposes of anything to do with NATS ATCOs, engineers and ATSAs are mobile grades. Those same mobile grades were moved to Swanwick and will be moving, without choice, from TC to Swanwick. I have to agree with other posts that you can choose to move to Prestwick or resign. There are no other logical offers.
If you read the notice on sabbaticals it quite clearly says that Operational grades are very unlikely to be included and read that to mean if you are an ATCO you can forget it.
The final decision to move MACC into the then NSC was taken and published by the NATS board in October 2001. The fact that the Manchester management have failed to convey that simple fact and the associated business case is for MACC staff to ask of their managers.
It will be Prestwick and not another site because in addition to the fine MACC staff there will be over 600 of the present staff who will be working at NPC. Nobody has ever even contemplated a business case which moves the lot.
For the purposes of anything to do with NATS ATCOs, engineers and ATSAs are mobile grades. Those same mobile grades were moved to Swanwick and will be moving, without choice, from TC to Swanwick. I have to agree with other posts that you can choose to move to Prestwick or resign. There are no other logical offers.
If you read the notice on sabbaticals it quite clearly says that Operational grades are very unlikely to be included and read that to mean if you are an ATCO you can forget it.
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Think back to the day you pitched up to attempt the initial ATCO selection. Just after you presented your proof of Identity and before they let you anywhere near the selection process, you signed a little slip of paper.
remeber what you were signing??
ATCO is a mobile grade and NATS can post you to any unit in Great Britain (although not any UK unit).
You will all go where you are told to, or leave NATS' employment. Same deal as we had from LATCC to LACC.
Deal with it.
remeber what you were signing??
ATCO is a mobile grade and NATS can post you to any unit in Great Britain (although not any UK unit).
You will all go where you are told to, or leave NATS' employment. Same deal as we had from LATCC to LACC.
Deal with it.
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Vector is correct. We are mobile grades, and have known this since day one. Look at staff from OKS who may have been there for years and have had to relocate. And the guys from Thames/SVFR.......ok, at the moment it's just across the road, but when the second big push south starts.
Being a mobile grade can be a great thing when it suits you (how many people at at the unit they started at?), but it was something you all agreed to when you started.
I think murmurings of industrial action over this is a little hasty
Being a mobile grade can be a great thing when it suits you (how many people at at the unit they started at?), but it was something you all agreed to when you started.
I think murmurings of industrial action over this is a little hasty
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ITSUX MADAD and any one else who thinks i am a gobby ****e......you are right!
I am not prepared (regardless of where i will be) to see management and Prospect muck us around.
The fact that we are a mobile grade is not really the problem to me and maybe many others here at MACC.The problems are that:
1.We have been fed so much crap over the last few years regarding a possible move.We have never been given a straight answer to any queries about it.
2.The NSC is a political decision and most people with half a brain know that.
3.Its not just a move down the road but a different country and culture.To a lot of people that is a huge change in life , that has far reaching consequences for them and their families.
As for me it does not matter but for the benefit of ITSUX MADAD and others you have not exported someone who suffers from small man syndrome but a Scotsman who is well aware of idiot jocks and their anti Englishness/the desire in Scotland to stamp its identity on everyone by being soooooo independent/the fact that i like everyone wants a good life (mine might get even better)
but a move up North is not for a lot of people going to enhance theirs.
I agree we are mobile but my what a way to make sure morale is kept nice and high!
I am not prepared (regardless of where i will be) to see management and Prospect muck us around.
The fact that we are a mobile grade is not really the problem to me and maybe many others here at MACC.The problems are that:
1.We have been fed so much crap over the last few years regarding a possible move.We have never been given a straight answer to any queries about it.
2.The NSC is a political decision and most people with half a brain know that.
3.Its not just a move down the road but a different country and culture.To a lot of people that is a huge change in life , that has far reaching consequences for them and their families.
As for me it does not matter but for the benefit of ITSUX MADAD and others you have not exported someone who suffers from small man syndrome but a Scotsman who is well aware of idiot jocks and their anti Englishness/the desire in Scotland to stamp its identity on everyone by being soooooo independent/the fact that i like everyone wants a good life (mine might get even better)
but a move up North is not for a lot of people going to enhance theirs.
I agree we are mobile but my what a way to make sure morale is kept nice and high!
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Having a mobility clause in your contract does not mean that you cannot claim redundancy when a Unit closes.
For reasons of their own our Union disagrees but here's one union that's more clued up
http://www.tssa.org.uk/advice/emp/emp23.pdf
For the more astute, NATS have enhanced redundancy terms which were in force at the time of the MACC Closure announcement
For reasons of their own our Union disagrees but here's one union that's more clued up
http://www.tssa.org.uk/advice/emp/emp23.pdf
For the more astute, NATS have enhanced redundancy terms which were in force at the time of the MACC Closure announcement
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The only clear answer in terms of the law is that there is no black and white answer. In some cases, the employees win, in others the employers win. You can argue precedent either way.
The generic advice I have is that if your contract includes a mobility clause, you may be obliged to accept the move to a new location, provided the wording of the contract is sufficiently clear, unambiguous, and not too wide in its scope. NATS will however be required to give you reasonable notice of any move (which they will easily comply with).
If the mobility clause is drafted too widely or is ambiguous, it may be invalid under the Unfair Contract Terms Act. To make such an assessment an appropriate Employment Law firm would need to see the clause and pass professional judgement on it.
Then it comes down to who has the cleverest lawyers.
The only clear answer in terms of the law is that there is no black and white answer.
In some cases, the employees win, in others the employers win. You can argue precedent either way.The generic advice I have is that if your contract includes a mobility clause, you may be obliged to accept the move to a new location, provided the wording of the contract is sufficiently clear, unambiguous, and not too wide in its scope. NATS will however be required to give you reasonable notice of any move (which they will easily comply with).
If the mobility clause is drafted too widely or is ambiguous, it may be invalid under the Unfair Contract Terms Act. To make such an assessment an appropriate Employment Law firm would need to see the clause and pass professional judgement on it.
Then it comes down to who has the cleverest lawyers.