MACC go on strike

[Loki]

I`m one of many who would have wished for more mobility in their careers....I had moves blocked on more than one occasion due to a shortage of personnel (surely not). However, I understand the reluctance of many settled people to suddenly have to uproot and start again in a distant location.

The key factor here is the lack of choice and consultation, but we should not imagine that NATS is much different from many other employers. If management perceive a benefit from moving MACC to Scottish, or the far side of the moon, they are pretty much obliged to do it if the benefit is large enough....usually involves money somewhere along the line.

There are plenty of people about who did not want anything to do with Swanwick. A few of us had an escape route (early retirement, a posting to TC, alternative employment etc).Most of us however had to go along with it. I do not remember anybody suggesting strike action, and I do not suppose it would have got any support from the rest of NATS staff anyway.

If you can get out of it, go for it, otherwise make the best you can out of what for you is a cr*p situation. You have my sympathy, but talk of industrial action is fanciful.

[250 kts]

It suited many of the staff at MACC to be mobile or have to move 200 miles when they failed to validate at LATCC both in AC & TC. You can't have it both ways.

NATS saves millions over the next few years with the 2 centre strategy-you can be part of its' future or not-your choice!!

It has been well known that this was going to happen but too many people at MACC believed naively that it wouldn't.

I look forward to seeing some of you down here to bolster our numbers but I suspect most will go north and actually enjoy it when you get there.

Also can't see too many taking redundancy under 50. In most cases once an ATCO always an ATCO and not too many area jobs out there within 200 miles of Manchester.

Without room to expand the present ops room at MACC what is the other logical alternative to what is planned-a single operation at LACC with all the concerns about contingency or a new centre at Prestwick with just the present operation there which is not viable financially? I don't think so-for once NATS has probably got its' long term strategy right.

[mhk77]

250kt, the main problem is that people at MACC DIDN'T know that this was going to happen. I was speaking to a number of MACC controllers not 3 months ago and they all had been led to believe that the 'West' side of the Ops room would go to Scotland and the 'East' side move to Swanwick. And this was the very worst case scenario as at that time there were still rumours that MACC might even go down to Swanwick as a whole operation! To use a quote of a friend of mine, the people at MACC have been treated by NATS and MACC management like mushrooms- keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em ****e!

[jocko0102]

For those who dont know what has been going on or think we are just suffering from sour grapes , then please understand that to have so many conflicting stories over many years and during that time never being asked our opinions quite frankly is a disgrace.

We are just the latest in a series of mismanaged blunders by this company and the union.

I have to agree that strike action would be a waste of time never mind the fact that i cant see how we could do it anyway.

Nobody has been honest with us and that is what so many people find so hard to take.

[250 kts]

Maybe it's time some of your managers resigned then. I know the GM has gone already and been replaced by someone who was close to the LACC move. But you're not telling me that the Manager ATC (area) was as in the dark as the rest of you seem to have been. Time for heads to roll methinks. He could always take a posting to ScACC should his position become untennable!!

[niknak]

Its obvious that the majority of staff who will be affected by the "enforced move", will be ATCAs, not ATCOs.

I don't mean to be rude guys, but from a management viewpoint, ATCAs are a very replacable commodity, after all, the local knowledge you have at MACC can be taught to the bright young things on the job market in Ayrshire.

ATCO's will be offered all sorts of inducements to move, and the majority will accept, the few who remain will be absorbed back into NATS or MAN PLC when they bring the running of MAN ATC back "in house".

Please don't delude yourselves that this will not happen, because it will, it's simply a matter of time.

[Arran's view]

jocko

The NSC is a political decision and most people with half a brain know that.

I don't think your half brain has been focused for the last couple of years. The NSC and now NPC business case has been one of the most complete and thoroughly tested business cases NATS has ever made. It has had to be because the original O date was 1996 and it has been examined by the CAA as owners, the Government as directors, the private sector as PFI bidders, the airlines as owners, the CAA as economic regulators and IATA airlines as customers. It must have passed you by somehow at Manch.

Basic fact - 2 centre strategy concentrated on the two current biggest sites.

2nd centre built at minimal cost using new technology which will be the proving ground for a possible Swanwick repalcement.

Never planned to go to Swanwick because the system there is too expensive to double in size and maintain. Just one of the many considerations is the cost of operating each sector. To take the 20+ sectors which are Scottish and Manch and staff it with LACC paid ATCOs and ATSA 4s in a permanent T,P & A operation is more staff than NATS has and more money than it will have.

There are lots of other parts of the business case which your managers know so why not go and ask them.

We have been fed so much crap over the last few years regarding a possible move.We have never been given a straight answer to any queries about it.

Most of the crap is because you haven't been watching what was being said elsewhere or asking questions of your managers. When the decision was announced about Manch coming north nearly 2 years ago what did Mr Robinson have to say to the staff ? What staff meetings did he hold ? What consultation did he hold about your options ? If you didn't ask him then don't expect too much sympathy from elsewhere.

Just one contrast in the approach from elsewhere. We recently heard that there was a proposal to change airspace in conjunction with the Irish. Staff here were upset to the point that the Director of Area services and Finance director came and spoke to the staff within a week. A well attended meeting with day section engineers and ATCOs as well as operational staff on their days off. Didn't solve all the problems but stopped the rumour mill dead in it's tracks.

The information has been there for years if you chose to read it instead of hoping it would never happen.

[Numpo-Nigit]

I can't help wondering what cries of anguish we would have heard if NATS had decided to relocate all the OKS staff to Scotland. Even the ongoing move to the sunny south coast has caused a rearguard action worthy of the retreat to Dunkerque!!! So many people, it seems, have discovered all-important reasons why they just MUST remain in the London area - even in that terrible West Drayton place which many avoided like the plague until recently!!!

The sad truth within NATS is that those who have to move usually don't want to, whilst those who want to are too vital to the operation to be released.

I wish those folks at Manchester who don't wish to emigrate north all the best in whatever game plan they have - just don't expect ANY help or sympathy from your GM.

[jocko0102]

Dear Mr Arran,

If the NSC had not been built in Prestwick there would have been cries of foul play from all sorts of people trying to point out that the poor areas of the country were being shat on or god forbid if they decided not to have one in Scotland at all!

The fact is NATS and good business cases dont go together.

Are you saying for example that a brown field site could not have been found in and around Edinburgh with lots of incentives from the local council etc to make Nats relocate there.

And your point about us not asking questions is absurd.
We have been asking questions for years and have never been told the truth. Not once have we been asked about our preferences if we were to be moved. As has been said we were even given the impression they might have moved half the sectors up and half down (and that was not that long ago).

We are just another in a long line of situations in which decisions are made without thinking properly about the impact to the staff.

[Arran's view]

jocko

Are you saying for example that a brown field site could not have been found in and around Edinburgh with lots of incentives from the local council etc to make Nats relocate there.

Well yes I am saying that. Inward investment grants are under the control of the Scottish Executive and even they might have spotted that closing a big business at Prestwick and expecting the public to move 600 people to a more expensive place is not a great plan for wasting public money. The 100 plus Manch jobs are going to Prestwick anyway so who is going to pay extra to move them elsewhere in Scotland ?

The fact is NATS and good business cases dont go together.

Not all the time do they get it wrong. They did manage to spot that having an ATC Centre in the middle of an international airport is not exactly good business sense.

And your point about us not asking questions is absurd.
We have been asking questions for years and have never been told the truth. Not once have we been asked about our preferences if we were to be moved. As has been said we were even given the impression they might have moved half the sectors up and half down (and that was not that long ago).

I do apologise. When were these formal meetings and where are the management statements which contradict the announced national policy ?

[Minesapint]

NSC IS a political decision - the only reason that the business case has been so "well tested" is because the thing has been dragging on for years.

Due to the strength of feeling at MACC its about time they re-thought where MACC should go. I say stick it into Swanwick on a NODE (existing type kit) or a SATCA system. Cheap alternative.

Only a fool would even consider wasting millions on plugging MACC into the NERC FDP system.

People first!

[Findo]

Only a fool would even consider wasting millions on plugging MACC into the NERC FDP system.

Where is that planned to happen minesapint ?

[jocko0102]

Its staying at Prestwick because they dont want to upset the bloody locals!

Nats is run by idiots who never get it right until years have passed and then they claim a success.

For those who have never been to MACC or dont know what has been going on , we have been asking for years and years about our future and have NEVER BEEN GIVEN AN HONEST STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER!!!!

So we are pissed off (not with the people at Prestwick) at the way we have been treated and our so called unions lack of urgency in pursuing answers for us.

Nats has a huge problem brewing here they better start doing something about it now!

[Greebson]

You chaps at MACC will get little or no sympathy from ANY other area controller outside manchester, because, you are all at the place the vast majority of area controllers would like to be. As they see it you've been lucky to get where you are, but it's time to move to join the folks that couldn't join you.

[2 six 4]

jocko0102 - I can't see that you have answered any of the points that have been made to explain what has happened.#

Your view always seems to be poor me nobody told me anything and I don't believe anything they say anyway. Maybe you (personally) and your management deserve each other.

My vote goes with greebson and 250kts but no doubt somebody will spend a lot of time and negotiate a nice package for you and you'll still whinge.

[250 kts]

And all this moaning from a unit which had the highest percentage of union NON-members. Bet they've all joined now so Prospect can be blamed for something we all knew was going to happen. I see the union has already taken stick over this-well it's only as strong as the members.

Greebson you're right there is NO sympathy down here for what is going on-just as I suspect there was little at MACC when Swanwick was being developed.

[jocko0102]

Ok for the benefit of some of you who still dont appear to accept that we here at MACC have been left in the dark.


As happens in this organisation rumour control is rife and many years ago it started circulating about a possible move.
However it did not specify where although as you can imagine several theories emerged as to why/where/when.

Now over the subsequent years we DID confront our managers about the rumoured move and were always told "nothing to worry about we know nothing and besides i doubt it would happen"

The staff at LATCC (as it was) were given 4 options i believe as to where they wanted to go. And 250 kts despite what you believe you did get sympathy from up here when it became obvious that you had been shat on and were being moved to Swanwick, which according to ex LATCC guys up here was not the most popular choice.

The staff at Prestwick were never in danger of going anywhere because the political powers that be were never going to let that happen.

From the moment the rumours started until the official "you are moving" announcement the staff (controllers and assistants) have been asking about our possible move.

Whether Swanwick or Prestwick back us is not so much of an issue to most people here.The staff here have a problem about being moved to somewhere they dont want to go to after many years of trying to extract the truth from mangement.

Despite what anyone outside Manchester believes or thinks they know there are a lot of staff here leaving/looking at alternative careers/requesting moves to Swanwick etc.

Yes people will move to the NSC but Nats have handled this so badly that yet again they have lost the trust of the staff.

[Findo]

jocko0102

I said some days ago -

The final decision to move MACC into the then NSC was taken and published by the NATS board in October 2001. The fact that the Manchester management have failed to convey that simple fact and the associated business case is for MACC staff to ask of their managers.

I think people will wonder why it has taken you nearly 2 years for this to be raised formally with your managers ( I presume it is now formal ). I wonder which "you are moving" announcement you are now talking about. Certainly for the last 2 years it has been a published part of NATS business plans that the 2 centre strategy has a date for all the moves to be completed.

[Minesapint]

Maybe NATS management should look to BA for what happens when staff are not consulted over large scale change. Its not enough to say that you are a 'mobile grade'. What is the cost differential in moving MACC to Swanwick? Could Swanwick take the extra staff on a TC like platform?

I think that its similar but Don't really know - does anyone? Has anyone asked?

Findo.

The MACC onto NERC system was a response to a previous post.

[250 kts]

Look at an earlier post-I heard that NATS saves £1bn+ on its' present strategy. Also would it really be worth building NPC just for the ScOACC operation-unlikely!!