Hilarious RT procedures in the states

[West Coast]

My point is to show that US controllers work alot of traffic, alot of it. The inference about them somehow not being up to whatever standards the original poster sets is absurd. I imagine he/she is a student who has no perspective on the overall picture.

If the post had specific suggestions or questions, asked in a proper manner, it surely would have been responded to in kind.

[TRF4EVR]

Well said West Coast. (also, Ralph, Final3Greens, ferris, ghostrider, and even Turkish, to a limited extent)

But, to Turkish, who in a very reasoned manner suggested that it was the Amerikans that started this slagging match, I refer you to the original post. Point me to the constructive part and I'll gladly aplogize.

As for "the war" and "American Nationalism", I'm at best ambivalent about our involvement in the middle east, and neither I, nor anyone I associate with sees a dissenting opinion as "treason", as long as it is expressed in a civil and intelligent manner.

And really. If you want to have a good natured slagging match with your yankee brethern, teach your heavy man some grammar.

P.S. Boeings are better than busses!

Just kidding. Maybe.

[Martin1234]

Even though I wrote my initial posts in a provocative way, to get attention and to start a discussion, I did expect more mature replies. It sure answered its purpose but the way I got responded strengthened my case.

I would be more than happy if Europe would change over its JAR and implement the FARs, and the list goes on. Just because I allegedly don't like something specific about the states doesn't automatically make me a terrorist, or maybe I am wrong?

I got the impression that they aren't very procedural on the radio in the states. It more feels like as you were talking on the phone and I don't feel comfortable with that nor that I don't need to read back the instructions I receive.

This is more of a statement and yes, I do exaggerate for illustrational purposes. I might have found ATCO's Achilles' heel of those in the states that take their profession seriously. However, I would appreciate if someone that is experienced in this matter could evolve the subject, preferrably in a serious way.

[iawix]

Imagine, daring to communicate with the proletariat in the tower. Next thing you know, you're going to find the mechanics walking fewer than ten steps behind.

Hang on a minute, that post made me want to run up and down my street waving an American flag. Hilarious!

[javelin]

Agree about the reply about slots. The number of times we get airbourne in Europe with no slot and then run into congestion - what is that all about ?

Compared to Europe ATC, USA ATC is clearer, simpler and more practical IMHO. You seldom get multiple instructions - I could offer a suggestion as to why but won't - and the best bit - THEY CAN SEE WEATHER !

Also you don't get minutes of unintelligable French, not being sure when to break in, unless you are working Montreal that is

[priscilla]

Javelin said US ATC is clearer, simpler...
I don't know for the rest of Europe, but In France we make things more and more complicated. When we think about a new procedure we always spend hours anticipating all kinds of technical failures...it makes ATC rules heavier to use...but perhaps more safely..?

As an exemple we cannot give a radar heading for departure, we have to give a full description of it, in case of airplane radio failure.(to join cruising level or holding pattern)...and so on...

Sure I agree we have to make it clearer and simpler....US ATC seems to be safe...even when technical problems occur...even without having spent hours thinking of them :-)

Airbuses are so lovely...(Girl technical opinion )

[strafer]

I'm a proud Englishman, but TRF4EVR is well ahead on points here Martin1234. He's the Matt Groening to your Syd Little

[Martin1234]

strafer, the problem is that everyone makes it a European against US war when I specifically pointed out the radio procedures!

Just because I mentioned the radio procedures doesn't mean anything else. The aviation industry in general is more efficient in the states.

To the best of my knowledge, TRF4EVR hasn't made a single point in regards to the radio procedures. Too many people here assume that I automatically attack the aviation industry in the states just because I don't like their radio procedures!

Stop assuming and start a new thread if you want to discuss "aviation industry in general, USA against Europe" or whatever you feel like.

[My names Turkish]

I agree on this post that you were tempted into it though.]

But, to Turkish, who in a very reasoned manner suggested that it was the Amerikans that started this slagging match, I refer you to the original post.

I never said that the first comment was reasonable, but you would have been better off to ignore the bit you thought to be sarcastic and rather than stoop to a lower level, make your point properly and win the argument like an adult.

The point I was trying to make was that on some threads there are some guys from the U.S who act like such morons. They think that using patriotism is an excuse for acting like rednecks. There was a thread where a guy asked a reasonable question about moving to Europe fro example. He wasnt complaining about the states, just said he needed a change. Comments such as "We dont need you" "Dont let your door hit you in the butt on the way out" and other such moronic comments. I just havent seen that sort of attitude in any other country and it amuses and intrests me.

The US vs UK rt thing is one of those little rivalries that will always be there. I think its a big shock for people to come from the strict and uniform procedures of the U.K to the more relaxed and less standard. There are some things that they could do better though. They have a high rate of runway incursion here in the U.S. In the UK you have to get a clearance to cross ANY runway, inactive or not. This is a better procedure than in the U.S and leads to less mistakes. But for some reason they wont introduce it in the U.S. As regards people chatting, I think there is a time and a place. Certainly not during the day. Imagine someone with an engine failure waiting to key the mike to make a Mayday call, and Berts telling frank about his Hash browns. Having a nice chat with controllers late at night when the freq is quiet is enjoyable. Its good to know that they are only human too.

[laidbak]

MARTIN1234

'..nor that I don't need to read back the instructions I receive.."

Not true.

A cursory examination of the FAR/AIM (which I'm sure you're familiar with,being an obvious paragon of procedure etc.) provides mandated procedure for readbacks etcetera.

Try not reading back an IFR clearance, or a hold short instruction, etcetera etcetera and see what happens.

Your post is jingoistic bs, pure and simple. I've experienced both styles of 'comms', in the UK (then RAF) and in the US (present - local 'podunk' airports and major airports /control centers).

Courtesy/friendliness, like a smile, costs nothing, and if it doesn't interfere with operations, is appropriate.

This whinge would definitely appear to be a manifestation of us/them egotism, inappropriate stiff upper lip-idness, 2X4 up the butt.

[Final 3 Greens]

Martin 1234

because I don't like their radio procedures!

That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with them, in the US.

Sounds like you're suffering form 'culture shock', a well recognised affliction in my line of business.

F3G

[Scott Voigt]

Turkish;

First off, <G> folks around here don't need any reason to act redneck. It's no act <G>....

Secondly, the US has been looking into changing FAR 129 about the crossing of runways. However, a study done using the NASA ASRS reports and other FAA reports shows that changing the rule would not make an appreciable difference. Most of the folks who get on runways that shouldn't didn't even know that they were on a runway or were on a runway that they had been instructed to remain clear of... The numbers just don't show it. As to the high number of incursions, well, you have to look at a couple of things. One is that we REPORT all of them. Secondly, we have just a wee bit more airports than y'all do <G>. Shoot, just in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex we probably have almost as many airports as most of Scotland... Last count, we had close to 100 airports in the metro area... Yes that includes grass <G>....

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Tech chairman

[Martin1234]

Final 3 Greens, it's very true that there must not be anything wrong with it just because it doesn't appeal to me.

[Final 3 Greens]

Martin 1234

I didn't mean the last post to sound so terse as it reads today -sorry for that.

Culture shock is potentially very dangerous as it impacts on one's judgement making capability by distraction or disorientation.

So even though the US procedures are 'ok', if you don't feel ok with them, then there is a real problem for you, which is what I meant to say in the last post, but failed to get across.

It took me quite a few flights, some good advice and lot's of studying of a book (think it was called Capt Carlson's guide or something similar) to 'get the picture and cope with the local variations