The Day Britain Stopped - TV Programme
OK, so it wasn't 100% on the facts and its easy to nitpick bits that we each know well. It is a drama and is limited by the understanding and imagination of the scrip writer (much like a real documentary or news reel).
BUT
Which bit of this show was implausible?
Train collision? Subsequent strike? Total gridlock on the roads? Staff shortages exasperated by said gridlock? People freezing to death in the gridlock? ATCOs in court held up as scapegoats?
Sorry, but that is all too real and mostly seen recently.
So the scenario for the midair wasn't spot on, but make the gridlock due to e.g. sudden, unexpected snow (where have I seen that lately?
). Sudden runway closures for clearance. Gridlock on the roads (because you southern softies can't cope with a sprinkling of snow). ATCOs arriving late (like the next cycle). Others staying on late 'cos they can't get home anyway. Airports turning aircraft away due to limited parking stands. Lots of pressure to move aircraft with few staff and far from ideal conditions. Do none of you f**k up sometimes? Even more so when overloaded?
I think the underlying message in this mockumentary was all too urgent and should be a wake-up call rather than the "head in the sand" mocking shown by most of you here.
BUT
Which bit of this show was implausible?
Train collision? Subsequent strike? Total gridlock on the roads? Staff shortages exasperated by said gridlock? People freezing to death in the gridlock? ATCOs in court held up as scapegoats?
Sorry, but that is all too real and mostly seen recently.
So the scenario for the midair wasn't spot on, but make the gridlock due to e.g. sudden, unexpected snow (where have I seen that lately?
). Sudden runway closures for clearance. Gridlock on the roads (because you southern softies can't cope with a sprinkling of snow). ATCOs arriving late (like the next cycle). Others staying on late 'cos they can't get home anyway. Airports turning aircraft away due to limited parking stands. Lots of pressure to move aircraft with few staff and far from ideal conditions. Do none of you f**k up sometimes? Even more so when overloaded?I think the underlying message in this mockumentary was all too urgent and should be a wake-up call rather than the "head in the sand" mocking shown by most of you here.
...the thin end thereof
Join Date: Jun 1998
Location: London
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously from the reactions of informed ATCOs, the portrayal of the events leading up to the collision were uninformed nonsense. On the other hand, under completely different circumstances a similar near-miss incident did occur at LHR in 1997 (was this the incident they referred to at the end of the programme about the court case?)
Good point about the Bilbao flight being on a BPK departure! I suppose the fact that they got that wrong is a bit irrelevant though, in real life it would not really matter what the destination of the a/c was.
They did get some technical things right, even I know that the TWR freq at LHR is 118.7 (although I'm not an anorak!).
So a couple of questions for you ATCers - If LHR had to be closed, for the reason in the programme (no fire cover due to airport fire services attending the accident) or any other - with huge stacks of holding traffic, do the contingency plans include diversions to military airfields (eg Brize Norton/Lyneham) - and if so when do these come into effect? Would it ever conceivably be necessary?
Re: the TCAS. In real life it should have prevented the collision - but one question. I was once in the jumpseat on an LHR 9R departure, and shortly after rotation the TCAS came on "Traffic....Traffic.....". The pilots were not concerned so I assumed that it is normal to get a TCAS warning when taking off from a busy airport with so much other traffic about. But does this not mean that in the event of a real loss of seperation it would take longer for the pilots to react to the incident?
As a drama it was entertaining though, I especially liked the bit with Gary Lineker and Alan Hansen!
Good point about the Bilbao flight being on a BPK departure! I suppose the fact that they got that wrong is a bit irrelevant though, in real life it would not really matter what the destination of the a/c was.
They did get some technical things right, even I know that the TWR freq at LHR is 118.7 (although I'm not an anorak!).
So a couple of questions for you ATCers - If LHR had to be closed, for the reason in the programme (no fire cover due to airport fire services attending the accident) or any other - with huge stacks of holding traffic, do the contingency plans include diversions to military airfields (eg Brize Norton/Lyneham) - and if so when do these come into effect? Would it ever conceivably be necessary?
Re: the TCAS. In real life it should have prevented the collision - but one question. I was once in the jumpseat on an LHR 9R departure, and shortly after rotation the TCAS came on "Traffic....Traffic.....". The pilots were not concerned so I assumed that it is normal to get a TCAS warning when taking off from a busy airport with so much other traffic about. But does this not mean that in the event of a real loss of seperation it would take longer for the pilots to react to the incident?
As a drama it was entertaining though, I especially liked the bit with Gary Lineker and Alan Hansen!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cheshire, England
Age: 50
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing's for sure, an airliner crashing in the London area...it's happened before and it's bound to happen again some day. As the area becomes more and more populated, the greater the loss of life will probably be. All the more reason for good safety practises, and if this docuwatsit makes a few people look at things twice then it was worthwhile.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello again,
What none of you have answered is the point of the whole film which is that the UK's transport network is a breaking point.
My impression of the aviation industry as a whole at the moment is of an alcoholic who is in denial. The first step to solving the problems is admitting they exist. The second is to ask for help.
We the great unwashed can actually help.
I personally love to fly and have had a love of aviation for as long as I can remember. However what annoys me about the aviation industry is the smug, self righteous attitude of those upon who my life depends every time I take to the air.
It is the fact that in private amongst yourselves you express the same concerns as we the masses do. Furthermore you know exactly the problems and more importantly the exact solutions. Yet the speed with which you close ranks should anyone outside the circle dare to comment is staggering. I work in a industry, with competitive pressures, upon which the entire country is dependent. Without this industry nothing else would happen. We openly canvas comment and customer help in dealing with problems. The aviation industry is not essential. The whole thing could disappear tomorrow and the vast percentage of us would notice very little difference in our life. So our mail might take a little longer but other than that we would go about our daily lifes.
I apologise in advance for shouting but it is essential that this point is made:-
GET DOWN FROM YOUR HIGH HORSES
Let me put it another way. You are a service industry. Perception is paramount. Your customers percieve several potentially lethal problems. They also know that these are not insurmountable. This is not 9/11. There is no foolproof defence against a determined terrorist. All that can be done is to make it harder.
The problems in the aviation industry are able to be solved but not by sticking your heads in the sand at the slightest public concern.
What none of you have answered is the point of the whole film which is that the UK's transport network is a breaking point.
My impression of the aviation industry as a whole at the moment is of an alcoholic who is in denial. The first step to solving the problems is admitting they exist. The second is to ask for help.
We the great unwashed can actually help.
I personally love to fly and have had a love of aviation for as long as I can remember. However what annoys me about the aviation industry is the smug, self righteous attitude of those upon who my life depends every time I take to the air.
It is the fact that in private amongst yourselves you express the same concerns as we the masses do. Furthermore you know exactly the problems and more importantly the exact solutions. Yet the speed with which you close ranks should anyone outside the circle dare to comment is staggering. I work in a industry, with competitive pressures, upon which the entire country is dependent. Without this industry nothing else would happen. We openly canvas comment and customer help in dealing with problems. The aviation industry is not essential. The whole thing could disappear tomorrow and the vast percentage of us would notice very little difference in our life. So our mail might take a little longer but other than that we would go about our daily lifes.
I apologise in advance for shouting but it is essential that this point is made:-
GET DOWN FROM YOUR HIGH HORSES
Let me put it another way. You are a service industry. Perception is paramount. Your customers percieve several potentially lethal problems. They also know that these are not insurmountable. This is not 9/11. There is no foolproof defence against a determined terrorist. All that can be done is to make it harder.
The problems in the aviation industry are able to be solved but not by sticking your heads in the sand at the slightest public concern.
I'm Just A Lawnmower
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Over the hills and faraway
Age: 62
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which bit of this show was implausible?
The thing is, mid air collisions between public transport aircraft do take place - in Europe there was one last year but the previous one was in 1977. They are very infrequent. The chances of dying on a public transport flight is very remote but if you do, chances are it will because of some mechanical failure, pilot error or some religious fanatic blowing the damn thing up.
Controllers do make errors and the system is not flawless but those errors tend to lead to nothing more than brown trousers and a few sleepless nights. What's more, brown trouser incidents are getting less despite the traffic counts going up.
Despite this, the programme deliberately gave out the impression that there is a procedure in place at Heathrow that is so flawed that a collision is inevitable. It was sensationalist and unbalanced and may well put people off flying at a time when the industry is still reeling from the far more real issues thrown up by 9/11.
Of course we shouldn't be complacent. We should strive to make sure that the extremely remote threat of two airlines flying in to each other is made as small as possible. But I don't think a BBC programme designed to shock is the way to do it.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems like NATS aren't too happy at this either!!
http://www.nats.co.uk/news/news_stories/2003_05_13.html
http://www.nats.co.uk/news/news_stories/2003_05_13.html
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tim Q
The missed approach alarm is pressed by the tower arrivals controller in the event of a go-around. It sets off simultaneous alarms in TC, Thames Radar and Northolt and is paticularly useful in the event of an unexpected go-around.
The standard missed approach is designed to keep the go-around away from departing traffic (for example with comms failure), however the departures and arrivals controllers tend to be more proactive, providing early turns, altitude restrictions etc.
The worst case scenario, is CSA going round off 09L with radio fail and not following the standard missed approach(as it didn't in the TV show) and the northbound departure off 09R getting airborne and switching over frequency to London before being instructed to.
The missed approach alarm is pressed by the tower arrivals controller in the event of a go-around. It sets off simultaneous alarms in TC, Thames Radar and Northolt and is paticularly useful in the event of an unexpected go-around.
The standard missed approach is designed to keep the go-around away from departing traffic (for example with comms failure), however the departures and arrivals controllers tend to be more proactive, providing early turns, altitude restrictions etc.
The worst case scenario, is CSA going round off 09L with radio fail and not following the standard missed approach(as it didn't in the TV show) and the northbound departure off 09R getting airborne and switching over frequency to London before being instructed to.
The standard missed approach is designed to keep the go-around away from departing traffic (for example with comms failure),...
It looks to me as if the aircraft are not separated without proactive controller input. Am I missing something?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The missed approaches don't 'separate' , but do at least segregate the traffic. They were changed after a 1997 airprox very similar to the incident in the programme.
TCAS may have been omitted from the programme, but it's not failsafe , two recent incidents have taught us that. I would imagine it's much more difficult to fly an RA at 1800' than level 350 .
Maybe the programme makers were right to leave it out than confuse the issue by including it then discussing it's drawbacks.
People here seem much keener on picking up continuity errors such as northbound bilbao flights and wrong frequencies than the larger issues explored.
What about corporate versus personal culpability ?
Should you work beyond the end of your shift ?
What happens to the 40 aircraft holding for Heathrow if we lose both runways ?
Can anyone tell me how the go-around alarm would have helped in the incident detailed last night ? What could Northolt, Thames or Fin have done when tower had both aircraft ?
TCAS may have been omitted from the programme, but it's not failsafe , two recent incidents have taught us that. I would imagine it's much more difficult to fly an RA at 1800' than level 350 .
Maybe the programme makers were right to leave it out than confuse the issue by including it then discussing it's drawbacks.
People here seem much keener on picking up continuity errors such as northbound bilbao flights and wrong frequencies than the larger issues explored.
What about corporate versus personal culpability ?
Should you work beyond the end of your shift ?
What happens to the 40 aircraft holding for Heathrow if we lose both runways ?
Can anyone tell me how the go-around alarm would have helped in the incident detailed last night ? What could Northolt, Thames or Fin have done when tower had both aircraft ?
...the thin end thereof
Join Date: Jun 1998
Location: London
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post vertigo.
"What happens to the 40 aircraft holding for Heathrow if we lose both runways ?" Fair enough question to ask, but what is alarming is that you don't already know, looking at your occupation in profile!!
Care to take a stab at my two questions above? Are they relevant?
You are the first Atco I have seen who has not rubbished the programme and pointed out that despite a lot of factual inaccuracy it raised some serious questions.
"What happens to the 40 aircraft holding for Heathrow if we lose both runways ?" Fair enough question to ask, but what is alarming is that you don't already know, looking at your occupation in profile!!
Care to take a stab at my two questions above? Are they relevant?
You are the first Atco I have seen who has not rubbished the programme and pointed out that despite a lot of factual inaccuracy it raised some serious questions.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like bookworm I too would like to know what happens in the tower during a missed approach at LHR to ensure aircraft seperation. In the programme there was virtually no communication between the 3 ATCOs controlling the approaching and departing A/C!? I have heard a 'go around alarm' mentioned, anyone care to elaborate?
As the arrivals controller, as soon as I notice, for argument's sake, an a/c not slowing down (through the final director forgetting, or the crew forgetting, or deciding to ignore the speed control, whatever the reason) I'll take some action, I certainly would not be sitting there fat dumb and happy somehow managing to not look at my radar or out the window, idly waiting for apporach to phone me to instruct me to send it around! Tee up the one ahead, maybe get the second one to reduce to a lower speed, or slow it down to min approach speed, I'd tell the departures controller sitting next to me that it would be tight, so if he had a possibly conflicting departure, he could send it straight ahead if airborne, or keep it on the runway. If it was looking like he wouldn't get a landing clearance, I'd see if I could switch one or the other to the other runway. In any situation like this, Arrivals and Departures co-ordinate very closely. It cannot be any other way.
Like has been said above, the only realistic way this could happen is if the go around is unannounced, goes radio fail and flies straight ahead instead of the missed approach procedure, AND a conflicting departure switches over to TMA without being told to, or also goes radio fail, AND TCAS for some reason doesn't function.
Gonzo.
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BillHR,
Let me be the first to respond to you comment about high horses. I am sure I speak for all my colleagues when I say that I take the utmost pride in my job. And when a production like this highlights certain facets that are simply inaccurate, then you have to expect an emotional response (egs, controller being escorted from the front gates at LTCC by police, no mention of TCAS, portrayal of lack of communication between Approach and Tower).
However, you flippant comment about "smug, self righteous attitude of those who my life depends" reeks. I know I'm not infalliable, I am after all human. However, this doesn't stop me from providing the best service I can. Further more, you state the aviation industry is not essential. Who has their head in the sand now? It is a WORLDWIDE system that millions of people daily use. Mass population = mass transit. Following this premise, there are many things in life that aren't essential, but have become part of daily living (TV, Playstation, Home PC, Boat, Cat, Mobile Phone). And yes, I realise that this is along the same lines as your comment about UK transport network at breaking point. BUT, what you "assume" is a self righteous attitude from the poor guy sitting infront of a radar screen, talking to another poor bloke with 200 passengers strapped to his back is a very uninformed, narrow point of view indeed. Come to a centre or a tower one day....
You say you enjoy avition....is this you means of making a living? If not, what is you means of making a quid? You state you are staggered by how quickly we "close ranks" when directed comments from outside. Perhaps productions like this prove that the somewhat uninformed will believe and communicate incorrect information, seeing it as fact. How often have I picked up papers and seen articles on aviation that are sensationalist garbage ("Seconds from tragedy....." or "Concorde looses tail"). And when friends or friends of friends see this, the resulting questions always make me smile.
You wonder why we react like this...........I think you have missed the point. The program does raise some issues that require looking at, however there are some issues highlighted that are false, and it is these that I have the problem with. And being referred to as smug and self righteous.
Let me be the first to respond to you comment about high horses. I am sure I speak for all my colleagues when I say that I take the utmost pride in my job. And when a production like this highlights certain facets that are simply inaccurate, then you have to expect an emotional response (egs, controller being escorted from the front gates at LTCC by police, no mention of TCAS, portrayal of lack of communication between Approach and Tower).
However, you flippant comment about "smug, self righteous attitude of those who my life depends" reeks. I know I'm not infalliable, I am after all human. However, this doesn't stop me from providing the best service I can. Further more, you state the aviation industry is not essential. Who has their head in the sand now? It is a WORLDWIDE system that millions of people daily use. Mass population = mass transit. Following this premise, there are many things in life that aren't essential, but have become part of daily living (TV, Playstation, Home PC, Boat, Cat, Mobile Phone). And yes, I realise that this is along the same lines as your comment about UK transport network at breaking point. BUT, what you "assume" is a self righteous attitude from the poor guy sitting infront of a radar screen, talking to another poor bloke with 200 passengers strapped to his back is a very uninformed, narrow point of view indeed. Come to a centre or a tower one day....
You say you enjoy avition....is this you means of making a living? If not, what is you means of making a quid? You state you are staggered by how quickly we "close ranks" when directed comments from outside. Perhaps productions like this prove that the somewhat uninformed will believe and communicate incorrect information, seeing it as fact. How often have I picked up papers and seen articles on aviation that are sensationalist garbage ("Seconds from tragedy....." or "Concorde looses tail"). And when friends or friends of friends see this, the resulting questions always make me smile.
You wonder why we react like this...........I think you have missed the point. The program does raise some issues that require looking at, however there are some issues highlighted that are false, and it is these that I have the problem with. And being referred to as smug and self righteous.
Last edited by Jerricho; 14th May 2003 at 23:10.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: cardiff
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an ex LATCC and LTCC assistant, i was disappointed with the programme, the inaccuracies were woeful, and it seemed a classic example of a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. The producers had got into their heads that the EGLL go-around procedure is an accident waiting to happen, and then gone off the deep end from there.
I do believe that a mid air is going to happen somewhere over the London TMA, sometime in the next few years...the airspace is getting very crowded, and sooner or later 2 bits of aluminium will try to occupy the same bit of sky at the same time. For every ATCO saying "load of cobblers, it will never happen", there must have been more than a few saying " there but for the grace of god...."
I just hope that I'm not on duty when it does...
I do believe that a mid air is going to happen somewhere over the London TMA, sometime in the next few years...the airspace is getting very crowded, and sooner or later 2 bits of aluminium will try to occupy the same bit of sky at the same time. For every ATCO saying "load of cobblers, it will never happen", there must have been more than a few saying " there but for the grace of god...."
I just hope that I'm not on duty when it does...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The world's biggest beach
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My worry now is for any go-around at Heathrow the passengers on board who have watched the programme are gonna be bricking it.
The truth,
On average we have about 3-4 go-arounds a day at Heathrow. None of them anything special just a normal day.
Because they are a normal occurance we train for them and control them regularly.
Bookworm the missed approach of 09L would turn passing 1500' or passing 0 DME. therefore turning inside the departure. If the was no proactive controller input (as there wasn't in the show) then I and my colleagues are not doing our jobs. The remark about altitude restrictions refer to proactive controller input, that's my job. Any normal occurrance during a shift in the tower needs proactive controller input, that's one of the reasons we're there.
Heathrow learnt an awful lot and changed it's procedures after the very near miss in 1997. I fully agree that our skies and airports are at/over the limit, but the scaremongering in the programme is completely disgraceful.
The programme shows only what we know already the entire transport infrastructure of this country is a shambles thanks to years of lack of investment and no cohesive transport policy.
What would happen if Heathrow closed and there are40 holding? These are the real questions that should be discussed, and I'm happy to do so without closing ranks, denying the problem exists whilst being smug
BillHicksRules,
Your comments are very insulting to a sector of the aviation industry that is passionate about their jobs and the safe conduct of all flights, I can only hope they were made in the heat of the moment.
And,
Can someone tell how they thought that closing a runway because of short staffing would help. It would be very foolish to go single runway with those traffic levels. You would mearly impose inbound flow control and one controller would work both runways with a safe manageble level of traffic, as we do now when we are short staffed.
The truth,
On average we have about 3-4 go-arounds a day at Heathrow. None of them anything special just a normal day.
Because they are a normal occurance we train for them and control them regularly.
Bookworm the missed approach of 09L would turn passing 1500' or passing 0 DME. therefore turning inside the departure. If the was no proactive controller input (as there wasn't in the show) then I and my colleagues are not doing our jobs. The remark about altitude restrictions refer to proactive controller input, that's my job. Any normal occurrance during a shift in the tower needs proactive controller input, that's one of the reasons we're there.
Heathrow learnt an awful lot and changed it's procedures after the very near miss in 1997. I fully agree that our skies and airports are at/over the limit, but the scaremongering in the programme is completely disgraceful.
The programme shows only what we know already the entire transport infrastructure of this country is a shambles thanks to years of lack of investment and no cohesive transport policy.
What would happen if Heathrow closed and there are40 holding? These are the real questions that should be discussed, and I'm happy to do so without closing ranks, denying the problem exists whilst being smug
BillHicksRules,
Your comments are very insulting to a sector of the aviation industry that is passionate about their jobs and the safe conduct of all flights, I can only hope they were made in the heat of the moment.
And,
Can someone tell how they thought that closing a runway because of short staffing would help. It would be very foolish to go single runway with those traffic levels. You would mearly impose inbound flow control and one controller would work both runways with a safe manageble level of traffic, as we do now when we are short staffed.
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, thanks Yellow Snow, you just reminded me of something....
Reference the "closing a runway" bit of the show, didn't the controller say something about this would require even tighter spacing on final to get more a/c down on one runway.
Hmmmm, remind me, Single Runway Operation - 6 Mile spacing (or vortex of course *grin*). Good thing I can bandbox No. 2 then, isn't it. Seriously though, would we suspend departures and try and pack as many as possible?
I'll happily discuss the 40 holding senario. I guess it would degrade into some form of bidding situation "Right, who can hold for the longest and who for the shortest" while trying to establish which airports can take what. And during LVPS once, I had a United from the States in the hold at Bovingdon who was CAT 1 only, and diverted to Germany. So, there are other options. Any other thoughts?
Oh, and hope the power doesn't go off!
Reference the "closing a runway" bit of the show, didn't the controller say something about this would require even tighter spacing on final to get more a/c down on one runway.
Hmmmm, remind me, Single Runway Operation - 6 Mile spacing (or vortex of course *grin*). Good thing I can bandbox No. 2 then, isn't it. Seriously though, would we suspend departures and try and pack as many as possible?
I'll happily discuss the 40 holding senario. I guess it would degrade into some form of bidding situation "Right, who can hold for the longest and who for the shortest" while trying to establish which airports can take what. And during LVPS once, I had a United from the States in the hold at Bovingdon who was CAT 1 only, and diverted to Germany. So, there are other options. Any other thoughts?
Oh, and hope the power doesn't go off!
Last edited by Jerricho; 15th May 2003 at 00:33.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lancaster
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slightly off topic, but...
Are ATCOs insured in any way against such criminal prosecutions as the one in the programme? Seemed quite scary that the controller in the programme was immediately arrested under suspicion of 'multiple manslaughter'...
Do ATCOs (NATS), in their contracts, receive loss of license insurance as many commercial pilots do? Just an interesting thought. If any of you guys and galls in the know can clear this up, it'd be much appreciated!
And the programme itself...interesting points made, and disconcerting to watch, but I have to agree that too many technical errors and false representation of procedures were used to 'scare' the general public. Come on Beeb, get the facts right before taking the plunge.
Are ATCOs insured in any way against such criminal prosecutions as the one in the programme? Seemed quite scary that the controller in the programme was immediately arrested under suspicion of 'multiple manslaughter'...
Do ATCOs (NATS), in their contracts, receive loss of license insurance as many commercial pilots do? Just an interesting thought. If any of you guys and galls in the know can clear this up, it'd be much appreciated!
And the programme itself...interesting points made, and disconcerting to watch, but I have to agree that too many technical errors and false representation of procedures were used to 'scare' the general public. Come on Beeb, get the facts right before taking the plunge.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 43° 40' 47" , -80° 25' 28"
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard about this programme and then came looking for the info. I might well sit down later and watch the programme from the website.
I've been struck by many differences in the type of 'infotainment' that North Americans gravitate towards (as opposed to the UK). In general, my assessment has been that North America is all about sensationalism (eating bugs, jumping off buildings, backflipping snowmobiles,...) but NOT when it comes to plausible real-life situations. In the UK it is often doom'n'gloom when factually-based programmes appear on telly. And while they do make a valid point, you have to wonder what effect they have on the constructive efforts being made by those in the know.
Shouting at ATCOs and pilots that they've all got their heads in the sand is probably on a par with telling your waiter to get his finger out (I wouldn't eat that burger now). BUT WAIT, ATCOs and pilots are highly trained and extremely professional people, so we should let them dissect the programme and be secure in the knowledge that they are still taking away the 'real' issues that they haven't already considered.
My view - it's all a ploy by the Canadian government to divert attention from SARS.
I've been struck by many differences in the type of 'infotainment' that North Americans gravitate towards (as opposed to the UK). In general, my assessment has been that North America is all about sensationalism (eating bugs, jumping off buildings, backflipping snowmobiles,...) but NOT when it comes to plausible real-life situations. In the UK it is often doom'n'gloom when factually-based programmes appear on telly. And while they do make a valid point, you have to wonder what effect they have on the constructive efforts being made by those in the know.
Shouting at ATCOs and pilots that they've all got their heads in the sand is probably on a par with telling your waiter to get his finger out (I wouldn't eat that burger now). BUT WAIT, ATCOs and pilots are highly trained and extremely professional people, so we should let them dissect the programme and be secure in the knowledge that they are still taking away the 'real' issues that they haven't already considered.
My view - it's all a ploy by the Canadian government to divert attention from SARS.
Yellow Stone
It's 1500 ft or 0 DME whichever is later. The turn by 0 DME is by no means guaranteed.
That's a fair comment. But ATC procedures tend to be designed with a failsafe if there is no such intervention. Just as we trim our aeroplanes so they fly hands off, much of ATC procedure is designed in such a way that lack of action (or more importantly, lack of communication) doesn't lead to a hazardous situation. That's the whole rationale behind clearances. Without the need for a failsafe, we'd just have instructions. Of course you can't have an entire ATC system that requires no proactive controller input, in the same way that you can't fly an entire flight in an aeroplane without proactive pilot input. But we still trim, and procedures are still designed to be, for the most part, self-deconflicting. It's a question of stability.
Requiring such input, particularly where it has to be made on such an urgent timescale at such a busy time, does not make a procedure inherently unsafe, but it does make it more vulnerable than others to human fallibility, system failures and sheer bad luck. Some of each of those is typically involved in any aviation accident.
Bookworm the missed approach of 09L would turn passing 1500' or passing 0 DME. therefore turning inside the departure.
If the was no proactive controller input (as there wasn't in the show) then I and my colleagues are not doing our jobs. The remark about altitude restrictions refer to proactive controller input, that's my job. Any normal occurrance during a shift in the tower needs proactive controller input, that's one of the reasons we're there.
Requiring such input, particularly where it has to be made on such an urgent timescale at such a busy time, does not make a procedure inherently unsafe, but it does make it more vulnerable than others to human fallibility, system failures and sheer bad luck. Some of each of those is typically involved in any aviation accident.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only people I've noticed being smug about this is the BBC. Before the programme started they made a point of stating how it's content had been "extensively researched". This gives the impression that what followed had authority and integrity. Controllers are well used to the general ignorance amongst the public about their profession. The ordinary viewer is in no position to question any of the points made in the programme. The result is alarm amongst the travelling public, and the residents of Hounslow, for no good reason. No amount of reassurance from the profession is likely to allay this.
Much of what was portrayed was inaccurate and implausible. The whole scenario was contrived to achieve the points the programme makers wanted to get across. In my view it was shameful.
The "extensive research" failed to discover the London Air Traffic Control Centre at Swanwick, or consider what part it might play in this scenario. Perhaps it is just a mirage! Even the "expert" on Newsnight seemed unaware it had opened, all he knew was that it was late.
This leads me to wonder if the "expert" and "extensive research" are somehow connected!
Finally, and most telling of all, they would never hold an England friendly international on the Friday before Christmas!
Much of what was portrayed was inaccurate and implausible. The whole scenario was contrived to achieve the points the programme makers wanted to get across. In my view it was shameful.
The "extensive research" failed to discover the London Air Traffic Control Centre at Swanwick, or consider what part it might play in this scenario. Perhaps it is just a mirage! Even the "expert" on Newsnight seemed unaware it had opened, all he knew was that it was late.
This leads me to wonder if the "expert" and "extensive research" are somehow connected!
Finally, and most telling of all, they would never hold an England friendly international on the Friday before Christmas!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to wind things up, but yes the controller would probably be at very least interview by Police very early on...possibly arrested depending on the outcome of the initial investigation. As I recall the instructions given in the met police are that in general any person concerned in the death of another would be arrested.
The decision to prosecute lays not with Police but with the Crown Procecution Service, and the chances are in the case of mutipule deaths they would put it before a jury to decide...afterall they would be critised if they didn't by public opinon.
The decision to prosecute lays not with Police but with the Crown Procecution Service, and the chances are in the case of mutipule deaths they would put it before a jury to decide...afterall they would be critised if they didn't by public opinon.