Gatwick Flow Rate?
I always found I had more trouble in training those with degrees than those who were ex ATCAs but the problem is, the aptitude tests 'suit' those with degrees so they get selected even if the're ex ATCAs with lots of experience or even FISOs with hours of experience.
On our terminal course, they set us some aptitude tests; we couldn't understand most of them.
On our terminal course, they set us some aptitude tests; we couldn't understand most of them.
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always, 'the golden wheelbarrow"...
NATS can't subsidise the NSL operations with NERL money. Whether or not it should have kept the En-Route trainees is one debate. Whether or not it should have kept any Airport trainees is far more complex and a different debate.
If NATS had emerged from the Covid crisis with a retained pool of trainees it would arguably have given them an unfair advantage over other suppliers such as ANS. Although of course those trainees, even if they fully completed the college, are a long way off providing any solution to the current issue. From ab-initio to the world's busiest single runway airport is quite a jump.
If NATS had emerged from the Covid crisis with a retained pool of trainees it would arguably have given them an unfair advantage over other suppliers such as ANS. Although of course those trainees, even if they fully completed the college, are a long way off providing any solution to the current issue. From ab-initio to the world's busiest single runway airport is quite a jump.
I really don't know what is different; I retired when it was NATS En Route Ltd (Area Radar) and NATS Services Ltd (Aerodromes) so apart from pay and conditions, what is so different about NATS Solutions? I only know that before NATS lost the contract (temporarily) the guys at Gatwick Tower were 'ace' at shifting the traffic.
"If people keep failing the training, it’s not the people at fault"
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really don't know what is different; I retired when it was NATS En Route Ltd (Area Radar) and NATS Services Ltd (Aerodromes) so apart from pay and conditions, what is so different about NATS Solutions? I only know that before NATS lost the contract (temporarily) the guys at Gatwick Tower were 'ace' at shifting the traffic.
As Nimmer says whether that helps attract staff when you need to is an issue and there is a risk that those in NATS Solutions will be disgruntled when they inevitably find out the terms and conditions that apply elsewhere.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If people keep failing the training, it’s not the people at fault". True up to a point but if the initial selection process is flawed, there's a problem. If you put a donkey in the Derby, it's not the jockey's fault when it doesn't run ! It seems the problems got worse once aptitude testing & Outward Bound courses for Cadets became trendy & the pool of 'known quantity' ATCAs diminished. Also, I've never understood the logic of chopping Cadets who'd got through ADC/APC/APR then failed Area for example and then went out with their valid ratings to what used to be called "non-state" units. How much time & money did that waste ? :-(
Lots of ANSPs, not just NATS, have been searching for the magic criteria that allows you to identify those candidates that will be successful at the recruitment stage. I'm not sure anybody has managed it yet. I suspect it's moved on from the original SHL and similar tests though. The problem is that most controllers will say just recruit people exactly like me. I've worked with controllers for more years than I care to remember and they are all different. The other problem is that the demands and the skills required, in Area at least, may have changed.
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: LGW
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Er, stop NATS firing all 127 of its trainees during Covid (some were two weeks away from qualifying)? It's not as if this isn't a recurring problem for NATS, that they should have got on top of by now, and having taken a Ł1.5bn loan the 'speadsheet' argument is mute - this was straight mismanagement, hence: '' (the 7-figure bonus won't have helped)!
That is insane, two weeks away from qualifying. No wonder they have staff shortages if that's how they treat them!!!
de minimus non curat lex
I was on No.54 course in 1983. 16 began & 16 completed the area rating courses. One failed to validate at LATCC & eventually went to an airfield. A much older (32) ex ATSA reverted back. The youngest was aged 18 who without any previous aviation experience scored 90% in Aerodrome oral exam.
It was commended by the examination board chairman one Des Crouch. Probable a spotter in his youth (?)
The recruitment board chairman Mike McAvoy (?) was I believe a keen spotter & those who had shown an interest in aviation stood a much better chance than those with little or no interest. The motivation to be an ATCO is always something that interests me.
Clearly a certain amount of grey matter is part of the equation.
Get that bit right & the failure rate would be far less. When MM was eventually replaced, the fail rate apparently increased.
Fancy aptitude testing conclusively proves one thing ~ you are good are aptitude testing.
Ask the right Qs in the first place must be the answer.
It was commended by the examination board chairman one Des Crouch. Probable a spotter in his youth (?)
The recruitment board chairman Mike McAvoy (?) was I believe a keen spotter & those who had shown an interest in aviation stood a much better chance than those with little or no interest. The motivation to be an ATCO is always something that interests me.
Clearly a certain amount of grey matter is part of the equation.
Get that bit right & the failure rate would be far less. When MM was eventually replaced, the fail rate apparently increased.
Fancy aptitude testing conclusively proves one thing ~ you are good are aptitude testing.
Ask the right Qs in the first place must be the answer.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The motivation to be an ATCO is always something that interests me.
Personally I think these "competency-based" questions don't really prove anything apart from your ability to tell a good story, but maybe that is just me being bitter......
The recruitment board chairman Mike McAvoy (?) was I believe a keen spotter & those who had shown an interest in aviation stood a much better chance than those with little or no interest. The motivation to be an ATCO is always something that interests me.
Clearly a certain amount of grey matter is part of the equation.
Get that bit right & the failure rate would be far less. When MM was eventually replaced, the fail rate apparently increased.
Fancy aptitude testing conclusively proves one thing ~ you are good are aptitude testing.
Ask the right Qs in the first place must be the answer.
Clearly a certain amount of grey matter is part of the equation.
Get that bit right & the failure rate would be far less. When MM was eventually replaced, the fail rate apparently increased.
Fancy aptitude testing conclusively proves one thing ~ you are good are aptitude testing.
Ask the right Qs in the first place must be the answer.
I frequently met both of them later in life; when I was asked to take command of an ATC Squadron which I ran in my spare time, Mike, whose son was already one of my senior cadets, volunteered his services as an instructor and Len became SATCO Boscombe Down so we met frequently.
Although I put my name forward as a 'recruiter', my own SATCO at Farnborough always 'blocked' me saying he couldn't release me due workload or something similar thus regerettably I was unable to participate in the recruitment process.
Last edited by chevvron; 19th Sep 2023 at 14:58.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Times have certainly changed - in my interview as part of the latest recruitment round I wasn't once asked "why do you want the job?
Personally I think these "competency-based" questions don't really prove anything apart from your ability to tell a good story, but maybe that is just me being bitter......
Personally I think these "competency-based" questions don't really prove anything apart from your ability to tell a good story, but maybe that is just me being bitter......
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was a question in the House of Lords this afternoon. Lord's questions are usually less political than those in the Commons and therefore more useful but do sometimes suffer from their Lordships not having the same research support to help them understand the domain.
The Government's response was from somebody that had read the brief which is unusual from this Government. From the Government's reply it would appear that NATS are still considered the solution rather than the problem but they might only enjoy that status for the next month or so. It would also seem that the shortage of staff on that shift was not just due to sickness, I'll leave others to listen to the response and draw their own conclusion as to the other factor.
Unfortunately follow up questions didn't help draw anything out because they were confusing the En-Route licensed operation with the commercial side of NATS.
The Government's response was from somebody that had read the brief which is unusual from this Government. From the Government's reply it would appear that NATS are still considered the solution rather than the problem but they might only enjoy that status for the next month or so. It would also seem that the shortage of staff on that shift was not just due to sickness, I'll leave others to listen to the response and draw their own conclusion as to the other factor.
Unfortunately follow up questions didn't help draw anything out because they were confusing the En-Route licensed operation with the commercial side of NATS.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
de minimus non curat lex
The process must start with the ATCOs effectively validating the proposed aptitude tests, presumably designed by psychologists(?) who think they know was makes an ATCO tick.
The most successful selection for pilot training is a ‘grading course’.
BAeFC ex A2 QFIs [George, Iain, & ‘Tag’] conducted them (14 hours flying in a PA28) for Cathay students (9007 course et seq) which significantly improved the success rate. Yes, expensive but long term worth its weight in gold.
ATCO selection needs a similar process of practical assessments to demonstrate basic skills & a learning curve.
What is paramount in my view is an actual interest in some aspect of aviation.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst Chevron may not have been released other controllers were released and took part. The use of controllers may have changed more recently, there are others on here who were previously involved that may be able to clarify that.
Involving Controllers in the recruitment of already qualified controllers is a no-brainer. For ab-initio it may not be so obvious. Unless controllers somehow have a hidden sense that detects the qualities that will lead to successful validation why would they be any more successful at finding the right people than anybody else? The danger is that in the absence of that hidden sense they might instead select people that remind them of themselves at that age. If your controllers are mainly male and from a certain ethnicity that may not be a good thing and could lead to issues for the hiring organisation.
We know who took the tests, we know what they scored, we know who successfully validated and who struggled. We can also assume that those who validated passed the tests at some point. Unfortunately we are missing any information on whether those who weren't selected because of their test results would have validated. Validating the tests on existing controllers wouldn't give us any more than we already know. That would need an organisation brave enough to take a selection of those that failed and put them through the course to see what happens.
Involving Controllers in the recruitment of already qualified controllers is a no-brainer. For ab-initio it may not be so obvious. Unless controllers somehow have a hidden sense that detects the qualities that will lead to successful validation why would they be any more successful at finding the right people than anybody else? The danger is that in the absence of that hidden sense they might instead select people that remind them of themselves at that age. If your controllers are mainly male and from a certain ethnicity that may not be a good thing and could lead to issues for the hiring organisation.
We know who took the tests, we know what they scored, we know who successfully validated and who struggled. We can also assume that those who validated passed the tests at some point. Unfortunately we are missing any information on whether those who weren't selected because of their test results would have validated. Validating the tests on existing controllers wouldn't give us any more than we already know. That would need an organisation brave enough to take a selection of those that failed and put them through the course to see what happens.
de minimus non curat lex
…..We know who took the tests, we know what they scored, we know who successfully validated and who struggled. We can also assume that those who validated passed the tests at some point. Unfortunately we are missing any information on whether those who weren't selected because of their test results would have validated. Validating the tests on existing controllers wouldn't give us any more than we already know. That would need an organisation brave enough to take a selection of those that failed and put them through the course to see what happens.
Nature took its course & a far greater number failed the initial JP course. This was as much about testing the integrity of the training world to ensure that the standards were being maintained before the split into fast jet/rotary/multi engine.
You could hardly imagine any commercial ANSP contemplating such a course of action…?
Yes it actually happened.
Whilst Chevron may not have been released other controllers were released and took part. The use of controllers may have changed more recently, there are others on here who were previously involved that may be able to clarify that.
Involving Controllers in the recruitment of already qualified controllers is a no-brainer. For ab-initio it may not be so obvious. Unless controllers somehow have a hidden sense that detects the qualities that will lead to successful validation why would they be any more successful at finding the right people than anybody else? The danger is that in the absence of that hidden sense they might instead select people that remind them of themselves at that age. If your controllers are mainly male and from a certain ethnicity that may not be a good thing and could lead to issues for the hiring organisation.
We know who took the tests, we know what they scored, we know who successfully validated and who struggled. We can also assume that those who validated passed the tests at some point. Unfortunately we are missing any information on whether those who weren't selected because of their test results would have validated. Validating the tests on existing controllers wouldn't give us any more than we already know. That would need an organisation brave enough to take a selection of those that failed and put them through the course to see what happens.
Involving Controllers in the recruitment of already qualified controllers is a no-brainer. For ab-initio it may not be so obvious. Unless controllers somehow have a hidden sense that detects the qualities that will lead to successful validation why would they be any more successful at finding the right people than anybody else? The danger is that in the absence of that hidden sense they might instead select people that remind them of themselves at that age. If your controllers are mainly male and from a certain ethnicity that may not be a good thing and could lead to issues for the hiring organisation.
We know who took the tests, we know what they scored, we know who successfully validated and who struggled. We can also assume that those who validated passed the tests at some point. Unfortunately we are missing any information on whether those who weren't selected because of their test results would have validated. Validating the tests on existing controllers wouldn't give us any more than we already know. That would need an organisation brave enough to take a selection of those that failed and put them through the course to see what happens.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's much more at play when it comes whether ultimately someone validates or not.
In the 80s and 90s selection became more rigorous, but still no women ( or just one or two to show we were being modern ) then we went for scientific recruitments via an outside firm , and FEATS. was introduced which many other Countries did follow . result : 60-70% failure rate. .the record being a complete course in Schiphol where nobody succeeded on OJT :a 100% failure rate.
In the meantime the job changed a lot , far more traffic , modern digital tools, simulators, better coaches, , more women interested , but also a new generation of people who many consider this job as a nice way to finance their hobbies and that do not intend not work on the frequency for 35 years as most of us did.
Add a management that is focusing almost exclusively on saving money instead of being interested in providing a service , and you start to see young controllers moving out of the Ops rooms for other careers , and even trainees resigning before full validation.
Having recently discussed this with a business head hunter his assessment was : " ATC is not a very attractive profession for Generation Z and we are all fishing in the same pond, with a smaller number of fish in it " .
IT seems to ne more interesting to them , so AI and more automation might save us in the future
