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Gatwick Flow Rate?

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Gatwick Flow Rate?

Old 15th Sep 2023, 12:17
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Originally Posted by Neo380
…….. one of its MDs couldn’t put up with the internal dysfunction any longer..
It might have been the big wheelbarrow full of cash too. 🤷‍♂️
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 12:28
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Originally Posted by eglnyt
Indeed. In most industries if such a high proportion of staff failed to reach the point at which they provided any payback on the investment made then you'd spend a lot of time refining that system until you remedied that problem. In ATC that "failure" has always been painted as success because we obviously only want the best people to succeed.

Feast and famine is a little harder. The airline business is tied to the world economy. Setbacks and in particular the length of them are difficult to predict. The setbacks after 9/11 and Covid were much shorter than most people expected. That after the 2008 crash was much longer. Somebody has to pay for that period you keep training controllers ready for the inevitable upturn and nobody wants to, least of all governments. The government funded ANSPs after 2008 cut back far more than the one funded by its customers that you dislike so much.
Its not a matter of liking or not liking eglnyt; it’s a matter of getting to the truth, and not just trying to ‘spin’ your way out of every predicament.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 12:34
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Another piece of crumbling infrastructure in the Uk., it seems to me interesting that an airport the size of Gatwick grinds almost toa halt because a couple of people get sick at the same time , the peopel running ATC services there have a simple mission, provide the service , not make as much moneyas possible from doing so. It seems like a gulf has opened between the management world and reality. Managers across the board only looking at the short term or their own paychecks, Directors are their partners in crime as well.

Obvioulsy this industry like many has ups and downs and years back the downs were accepted as part of doing business, you didn't make much profit, perhaps a loss, that year but after a couple of years back in the black again. That seems to be a crime nowadays and entities have to make a profit or minimal loss every year with the result that there is no long term planning or slack in the system and many key aspects of the business do not have a quick fix, Training ATCOS pilots and Licensed engineers takes time and money and the people cannot be made to appear as if by magic.

Same with Drs, hospitals, police etc etc etc.

Until we come to understand that the L on a P&L account is sometimes unavoidale and soemtimes must just be sucked up for the good of the business then we will continue to have these failings . In my own industry , telecoms, BT sacked/made deundant thousands of technical guys and girls because modern digital equipment didnt go wrong as much as the old stuff . Within a couple of years along comes the internet and need for second phone lines and oh dear we ahvent got any staff to install lines and upgrade exchange equipment bcuase the becuase the previous regine got rid of them all.and the exclelent training programmes BT gave their people.

How do we stop short termism causing massive disruption just so a few people can get bousses for doing the wrong thing for the user/ customer.??
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 13:57
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NATS don’t actually provide the ATC for Gatwick, it is done by the subsidiary company NATS solutions. Different terms and conditions, but the same amount of planes to control. Basically cheap NATS!!
not sure how the recruitment is going!!

Last edited by Nimmer; 15th Sep 2023 at 13:58. Reason: Spelling
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 14:06
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"The Bean Counters have it!, the Bean Counters have it!." with apologies to Mr Speaker.

IG
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 16:11
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Originally Posted by Imagegear
"The Bean Counters have it!, the Bean Counters have it!." with apologies to Mr Speaker.

IG
So you set your airports up as limited companies with shareholders and are then shocked when they behave just like limited companies with shareholders. What did anybody expect to happen?
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 16:18
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NATS needs to get back to basics. You can't start training until you're 18, so applicants should have 2 A Levels under their belts. Maths, Geography, Science or computer based. Failing that, 5 GCSE's with 2 years of relative aviation experience. If candidates have a degree, so much the better. Get rid irrelevant 'aptitude' tests and the layers of HR bods with fluffy job-titles. Get ATCOs out there on the recruiting circuit, and, depending what the WEF (et al), have planned, have a BIG look at present staffing & manpower planning.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 16:31
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER
NATS needs to get back to basics. You can't start training until you're 18, so applicants should have 2 A Levels under their belts. Maths, Geography, Science or computer based. Failing that, 5 GCSE's with 2 years of relative aviation experience. If candidates have a degree, so much the better. Get rid irrelevant 'aptitude' tests and the layers of HR bods with fluffy job-titles. Get ATCOs out there on the recruiting circuit, and, depending what the WEF (et al), have planned, have a BIG look at present staffing & manpower planning.
Is there any evidence to suggest that academic qualification prior to recruitment has any bearing on success in validation at unit ? Just interested. A few years back I got the impression that the percentage of trainees with degrees had increased greatly in the last 20 years but then of course so has the general percentage of the population.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 16:55
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If people keep failing the training, it’s not the people at fault.

just a thought.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 17:01
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eglnyt...We went through in 1979-1982. About 36 on the course, all of which had the qualifications I outlined above. I think there were 4 who didn't qualify/validate. Three ended up as senior ATSAs, one guy left the service completely, a great shame. A couple failed the odd exam, but ended up re-sitting stuff and eventually validating. Of those who validated, 4 left and became senior airline captains. So, about a 90% success rate, in terms of unit validations achieved.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 17:25
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER
eglnyt...We went through in 1979-1982. About 36 on the course, all of which had the qualifications I outlined above. I think there were 4 who didn't qualify/validate. Three ended up as senior ATSAs, one guy left the service completely, a great shame. A couple failed the odd exam, but ended up re-sitting stuff and eventually validating. Of those who validated, 4 left and became senior airline captains. So, about a 90% success rate, in terms of unit validations achieved.
Lots of variables since 1979 though and one group is a small sample. It would be interesting to know what it looks like over a longer period & whether there was a point at which validation rates dropped significantly. I believe 18 year olds now are just as clever and intelligent as they've ever been they just know different stuff nowadays. The intensity at Gatwick in the 1980s was very different to now.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 17:43
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Originally Posted by eglnyt
Lots of variables since 1979 though and one group is a small sample. It would be interesting to know what it looks like over a longer period & whether there was a point at which validation rates dropped significantly. I believe 18 year olds now are just as clever and intelligent as they've ever been they just know different stuff nowadays. The intensity at Gatwick in the 1980s was very different to now.
Oh yes. The validation rates/CATC pass rates went down when SHL first became involved. They plugged in with us for 2 or 3 weeks, went away, and came back with a presentation of what they thought NATS needed. A series of 'tests' that bore no relation to what ATC was about. Just the same bog-standard stuff they had sold to the WH Smith/Barclays/Woolworths management-trainee selectors. They gave a presentation at EGCC and many of the seniors ATCOs, some of whom were ex-military aircrew couldn't understand a lot of it. It was totally irrelevant to ATC.
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 17:53
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER
Oh yes. The validation rates/CATC pass rates went down when SHL first became involved. They plugged in with us for 2 or 3 weeks, went away, and came back with a presentation of what they thought NATS needed. A series of 'tests' that bore no relation to what ATC was about. Just the same bog-standard stuff they had sold to the WH Smith/Barclays/Woolworths management-trainee selectors. They gave a presentation at EGCC and many of the seniors ATCOs, some of whom were ex-military aircrew couldn't understand a lot of it. It was totally irrelevant to ATC.
Interesting if there was that drop off. It has always been the story that low completion rates had always been the case and indeed trumpeted as good because NATS has to be so selective.



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Old 15th Sep 2023, 20:54
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There were 20 at the start of my Course in 1972. By the end, in 1975, 1 had left due medical fail, only 3 had been chopped & one left to be a pilot. Everyone of the remaining 15 went on to validate. Can NATS achieve a similar pass rate nowadays I wonder ?
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Old 16th Sep 2023, 08:31
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Originally Posted by Eric T Cartman
There were 20 at the start of my Course in 1972. By the end, in 1975, 1 had left due medical fail, only 3 had been chopped & one left to be a pilot. Everyone of the remaining 15 went on to validate. Can NATS achieve a similar pass rate nowadays I wonder ?
Started a 3 year ATCO Cadet course in '71 having been an assistant for 2.5 years.
23 cadets started, one resigned after the 4 week 'Basic' course.
6 got 'chopped', 5 on Aerodrome control and one on Area, 16 eventually graduated in '74. One exam fail and you were chopped, no re-sits allowed after one fail in those days.
In later years it wasn't unusual to have 16 graduate but to do so, they had to 'combine' 2 courses of 20 to 22 each to get that number.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 10:46
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I’m not sure that “academic standards” are that important, rather than “aptitude”. 23 out of 24 completed our Cadet Course. Only a very few were rated “high level” in academic assessment (university degrees). All were ex ATCAs, which is very telling, to my mind. I don’t think so many would have “made it” in modern times.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 12:59
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Originally Posted by kcockayne
I’m not sure that “academic standards” are that important, rather than “aptitude”. 23 out of 24 completed our Cadet Course. Only a very few were rated “high level” in academic assessment (university degrees). All were ex ATCAs, which is very telling, to my mind. I don’t think so many would have “made it” in modern times.
I always found I had more trouble in training those with degrees than those who were ex ATCAs but the problem is, the aptitude tests 'suit' those with degrees so they get selected even if the're ex ATCAs with lots of experience or even FISOs with hours of experience.
On our terminal course, they set us some aptitude tests; we couldn't understand most of them.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 13:41
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Originally Posted by chevvron
I always found I had more trouble in training those with degrees than those who were ex ATCAs but the problem is, the aptitude tests 'suit' those with degrees so they get selected even if the're ex ATCAs with lots of experience or even FISOs with hours of experience.
On our terminal course, they set us some aptitude tests; we couldn't understand most of them.
In the 70s, 80s & 90s a far smaller percentage went to University and you were still selecting near the top academically from A level students and those who'd proceeded to A level even if they didn't complete. Nowadays that same level will almost all proceed to university. ATC is now one of the few real alternatives to university and at 18 most won't know that.
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 14:33
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Hi Andy,

Glad to see you're still 'on the perch'.

Regards, Brian W
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 15:25
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Hi to you also, Brian! Can’t keep an old dog down!! Hope all is well with you..
regards,
Andy

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