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BRISTOL JOBSWORTHS

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BRISTOL JOBSWORTHS

Old 2nd Feb 2021, 11:56
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 38
"ROCAS" shouldn't be required. I agree.

However there are the minority of pilots that spoil it for everyone else.

I recall a few years back an aircraft was freecalled across to us from an adjacent unit. ATCO was busy at the time and eventually invited the pilot to pass their message around 90 seconds after they first called. The pilot passed their routing, straight through the CTA VOR DCT VOR, didn't request CAS transit. When the assigned squawk was displayed, low and behold the aircraft is 3nms inside CAS without a clearance.

When this was pointed out to the pilot, the reply was, "well I'm IFR, I've filed a flight plan and I called whilst outside CAS".

So I think you will have to forgive those of us that make use of the term "remain outside CAS". I don't use it routinely, but if a pilot requests zone transit I will use the term until I've established the requested routing and identified the aircraft.
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 18:38
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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So I think you will have to forgive those of us that make use of the term "remain outside CAS". I don't use it routinely, but if a pilot requests zone transit I will use the term until I've established the requested routing and identified the aircraft.
In the time taken to say that, you could identify the aircraft and ascertain whether you needed to specify ROCAS - or perhaps even issue a prompt clearance!

2 s
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Old 2nd Feb 2021, 19:22
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by 2 sheds View Post
In the time taken to say that, you could identify the aircraft and ascertain whether you needed to specify ROCAS - or perhaps even issue a prompt clearance!

2 s
You can identify an aircraft, get their details, and issue a safe clearance in 8 syllables in one transmission? Impressive.

there are times when ROCAS is very useful, and times when it's not needed..it's not as simple as either being needed all the time or none of the time
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 01:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 39
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Originally Posted by 2 sheds View Post
In the time taken to say that, you could identify the aircraft and ascertain whether you needed to specify ROCAS - or perhaps even issue a prompt clearance!

2 s
Ok then. 🙄

Last edited by Doody2007; 3rd Feb 2021 at 11:15.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 06:50
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by sambatc View Post
You can identify an aircraft, get their details, and issue a safe clearance in 8 syllables in one transmission? Impressive.
I work with people that still can't enter the details of a freecaller straight into EFPS.. always have to grab a pen and a piece of paper, write it all down and then enter it on EFPS at the next available opportunity... 10+ years after we got rid of paper strips.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 07:06
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Moon
Posts: 207
Maybe NATS should have insisted that all that EFPS displays had a scribble function. At PC it was a lifesaver for free calls ( at least it was six years ago before I retired ) I always thought that this was a basic function which all ATCO’s needed. Progress?
Rgds
AyrTC
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 10:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Luton
Posts: 448
I'm a GA pilot. NATS implemented an optional online systen that covered at least Luton & Stansted whereby one could pre-notify an intention to route into the Class D airspace either for transit or to a destination inside the zone. It was great. You called, the controller replied that he/she had your details and thereafter the amount of RT traffic was minimal. Regrettably my understanding is that is has been discontinued. Would wider use of such a system help manage itinerant traffic?
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 10:43
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,860
Interesting video about Edinburgh ATC in the link below. Starting at about 4:40 it shows how they integrate VFRs using their EFPS displays and the advantage of a pre-note to both ATC and GA pilots.




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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 11:54
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Moon
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Funnily enough Spekesoftly I tried putting that up about an hour ago ( great minds think alike ) and it just disappeared. The video is very well done. The info about the electronic strips starts around 2:00 mins. Edinburgh is no longer operated by NATS 🙁 However it is the equipment that NATS installed. I would imagine Bristol Ops is similar ( I have no idea! )
Rgds
AyrTC
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 12:02
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Way north
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Originally Posted by AyrTC View Post
...
The airport could continue renting the equipment from NATS, or they outright bought it. The equipment does not have to come from the ANSP, the ANSP could only provide the manpower.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 12:22
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
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jmmoric that’s understood. I was just trying to clarify that although Edinburgh and Bristol are different ANSP’s they are probably using the same basic equipment as the new ANSP at Edinburgh “inherited” the equipment NATS installed. I am certainly not trying to start an ANSP war!😎
Rgds
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 20:48
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
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I stand to be corrected, but the Bristol electronic strip system is what's called 'Hub and Spoke', and bears more similarities to TC EXCDS than to the EFPS systems used in Edinburgh (and Stansted, Heathrow etc.)
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 17:45
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Surrey
Age: 63
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Originally Posted by mike current View Post
I work with people that still can't enter the details of a freecaller straight into EFPS.. always have to grab a pen and a piece of paper, write it all down and then enter it on EFPS at the next available opportunity... 10+ years after we got rid of paper strips.
Having worked only in area radar,we used to get very few 'free-callers',but it still happened occasionally,and I always kept a blank strip handy for such events.Of course at Eastern Radar,we would just write on the screen in chinagraph.Never had to use EFPS,thank god.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 20:49
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: London Whipsnade Wildlife Park
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Are Bristol combining the tower and radar functions at times. Farnborough have been doing. Might account for a reduced service, but if the frequency is quiet, ask in a polite manner why your request is being denied?
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 08:42
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
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Originally Posted by Buster the Bear View Post
Are Bristol combining the tower and radar functions at times. Farnborough have been doing. Might account for a reduced service, but if the frequency is quiet, ask in a polite manner why your request is being denied?
Farnborough and some other airfields were allowed to do it but only in 'light traffic' conditions (before 8 am and after 8pm at Farnborough I think but I may be wrong) and of course, the tower controller had to have a valid APS rating as well as ADI/ADV, the ATM had to be suitable for identifying the aircraft and vectoring it onto the ILS and of course, the procedures and safety case had to be vetted and approved by the CAA.
Happened after I retired; in my day the use of 'surveillance equipment' to provide APS by the tower controller was strictly verboten.
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 10:04
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Continous descent trials

Heathrow mid 70s..followed a T3 in on westerlies. co pilot whinged that the distance to go informed by the approach controller was some minor distance out compared with his doppler driven distance counter..thought idiot as obviously had never visited the tower to see how the guys and girls worked. A month or so later he was found hanging in his garage.
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 11:27
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 146
Combined radar and tower function has been in use at several UK airports pretty much 24/7 since March 2020.
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Old 13th Mar 2021, 08:02
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
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Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
Heathrow mid 70s..followed a T3 in on westerlies. co pilot whinged that the distance to go informed by the approach controller was some minor distance out compared with his doppler driven distance counter..thought idiot as obviously had never visited the tower to see how the guys and girls worked. A month or so later he was found hanging in his garage.
I did a talkdown to touchdown using PAR one day and the pilot complained there was a least half a second between me saying 'radar touchdown NOW' and his wheels actually making contact.
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