Comparable pay offer for ATCEs/ATSAs
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Comparable pay offer for ATCEs/ATSAs
I would like to know of anyones' views on the current state of the pay offer and if ATCOs are in agreement that ATCEs/ATSAs should have a comparable pay offer. We do work hard to ensure an Air Traffic Service is available, as well as you guys(speaking as an ATCE)
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Basically you are asking the wrong question to the wrong people. I would love my colleagues to earn as much as they can spend but I don't set their wages.
You have an anonymous Chairman and a Chief Executive who are paid lots of money to decide this amongst other things.
You have an anonymous Chairman and a Chief Executive who are paid lots of money to decide this amongst other things.
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I agree that you should share the same increase as ATCOs, but you have to remember there is now a split between the 3 of us which I'm sure management will try their upmost to keep.
I also think we should try to pull together, rather than increase this anti-ATCO surge I can see creeping in through the company. Remember, you can say you believed management as much as you like, ATCOs were the ones with the balls to stand up and fight initially and not believe them. We are not responsible for your lesser deal.
I also think we should try to pull together, rather than increase this anti-ATCO surge I can see creeping in through the company. Remember, you can say you believed management as much as you like, ATCOs were the ones with the balls to stand up and fight initially and not believe them. We are not responsible for your lesser deal.
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Greebson
We only accepted the deal on the say so of our branch of the union. They only recommended it to us as the Management said there was absolutely no more money in the pot. I totally agree that we should all stick together, something which we should have done at the start!!!
We only accepted the deal on the say so of our branch of the union. They only recommended it to us as the Management said there was absolutely no more money in the pot. I totally agree that we should all stick together, something which we should have done at the start!!!
Last edited by Alert_5; 15th Aug 2002 at 19:38.
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Yes, of course we should have stuck together. But the assistants and engineers chose to believe management and the controllers did not and seemed ready for a fight and look what it got them. The controllers may not be totally happy with it, but its good enough for the assistants and engineers to want to kick up a fuss about it. Given managements misguided perception of an excess of assistants and engineers and obvious shortage of controllers do you really think they will want to continue negotiating equally with the three groups? Yes we should have stuck together and now that PCS has forced the issue, we may find it too late.
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Dan
NO ATCO DID vote for a divide and conquer deal, they voted to REJECT THE PAY DEAL which we all should have done.
As I said early we need to pull together and not stir up anti-ATCO feelings within the company
NO ATCO DID vote for a divide and conquer deal, they voted to REJECT THE PAY DEAL which we all should have done.
As I said early we need to pull together and not stir up anti-ATCO feelings within the company
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Alert 5.
As I understand it your BEC and members were naive enough to believe management when it said no more in the pot and voted to accept the deal.
The ATCOs voted against the deal and were prepared to take action if there wasn't more on the table. I suspect that most of the ATSAs would have continued to come to work even if the ATCOs were on strike?
The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake??
If I were NATS I'd tell you to s*d off and try again next year-in the hope that you will be naive again then.
I reckon you've shot your bolt for 2002/2003.
As I understand it your BEC and members were naive enough to believe management when it said no more in the pot and voted to accept the deal.
The ATCOs voted against the deal and were prepared to take action if there wasn't more on the table. I suspect that most of the ATSAs would have continued to come to work even if the ATCOs were on strike?
The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake??
If I were NATS I'd tell you to s*d off and try again next year-in the hope that you will be naive again then.
I reckon you've shot your bolt for 2002/2003.
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I doubt if ATSA's and other support staff would have gone in by crossing a picket line. I and my colleagues would not have.
It may be a sectional claim but its not a 'sectional' offer! Its a 4% payrise. THAT is why PCS and ATCE's are not best pleased. Will the ATCO's cross our picket lines? Hell yes they will in their droves (and Merc's!!)
It may be a sectional claim but its not a 'sectional' offer! Its a 4% payrise. THAT is why PCS and ATCE's are not best pleased. Will the ATCO's cross our picket lines? Hell yes they will in their droves (and Merc's!!)
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250kts, I think you are missing the point. "The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake?? " Not true. As a PCS member, I have little choice but to leave the pay talks to PCS and then trust that they have judged the situation correctly. On that basis PCS members voted in line with the union recommendation. This year PCS got it wrong after being misled by management and it's not surprising that the majority of PCS members are not happy with the situation. It has nothing to do with ATSAs/ATEs suddenly wanting a slice of the cake. All we want is to be treated fairly.
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Minesapint
wild-cat strikes went out with Maggie in the 80's/90's. Legally you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you decided not to cross ATCOs picket lines, if and when it happens. If ATSAs decide to strike I would go to work, but as normal(with staff shortage and what-not) would insist on working with an 'A' as part of the team.
I suspect this would mean working with the small minority of ATSAs that come to work or T&D ATCOs trained to do the job. ATCOs could also work as an 'A' which would provide a very limited service, not just to do with numbers but a lack of knowledge in how to work the system and apart from the ATSAs who would work on flight plans?
I hope you all stick to your guns, and next time you're told "sorry that's all there is." you won't be so naive.
roger
wild-cat strikes went out with Maggie in the 80's/90's. Legally you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you decided not to cross ATCOs picket lines, if and when it happens. If ATSAs decide to strike I would go to work, but as normal(with staff shortage and what-not) would insist on working with an 'A' as part of the team.
I suspect this would mean working with the small minority of ATSAs that come to work or T&D ATCOs trained to do the job. ATCOs could also work as an 'A' which would provide a very limited service, not just to do with numbers but a lack of knowledge in how to work the system and apart from the ATSAs who would work on flight plans?
I hope you all stick to your guns, and next time you're told "sorry that's all there is." you won't be so naive.
roger
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If you personally as an ATSA/ATCE voted to reject the pay offer then yes I do ave sympathy with you now feeling cheated. However if you didn't have the balls in the first place to reject the offer the you don't have a leg to stand on when you now try to cry unfair. Your vote to accept the offer is your personal statement as to whether YOU accept or reject the offer presented. That's regardless of whether management, union, media, mystic meg or anyone else tell you it's all that's available. If as many of you as are now complaining had shown some solidarity with the ATCO's in the first place you might not have been in this situation now. If ever there was a time you might have improved the offer it was by presenting a united front with us ATCO's. That was when you should have jumped on the bandwagon.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not an ATSA/Engineer basher. I was an ATSA myself so I do appreciate what you do, & how little thanks you get from management & some colleagues. I (amongst others) tried my best to persuade both the PCS rep at my unit, and as many of the ATSAs as would listen to jointly reject the pay offer with the ATCOs. However it was not to be. I feel you have been very badly let down by your union, and it's now up to all of you to take issue with your union heirarchy & ensure it doesn't happen again, as I too believe that this time you have well & truly missed your opportunity for a better deal this year.
I hope that the big lesson to be learned here is that it's a big tough unfair world. Management are clearly happy to have an adversarial them & us relationship & try to cheat the staff at every opportunity. (evidenced not only by this years pay, but don't forget the bonuses we were all cheated out of last time). Until they change their behaviour we have no alternative but to treat everything they say with utmost suspicion.
Good luck & I hope we all get an outcome we are happy with.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not an ATSA/Engineer basher. I was an ATSA myself so I do appreciate what you do, & how little thanks you get from management & some colleagues. I (amongst others) tried my best to persuade both the PCS rep at my unit, and as many of the ATSAs as would listen to jointly reject the pay offer with the ATCOs. However it was not to be. I feel you have been very badly let down by your union, and it's now up to all of you to take issue with your union heirarchy & ensure it doesn't happen again, as I too believe that this time you have well & truly missed your opportunity for a better deal this year.
I hope that the big lesson to be learned here is that it's a big tough unfair world. Management are clearly happy to have an adversarial them & us relationship & try to cheat the staff at every opportunity. (evidenced not only by this years pay, but don't forget the bonuses we were all cheated out of last time). Until they change their behaviour we have no alternative but to treat everything they say with utmost suspicion.
Good luck & I hope we all get an outcome we are happy with.
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Karoshi
I think YOU are missing the point. Would you have preferred the ATCOs (after turning down the pay offer) to say, "Well actually the ATSAs and Engineers accepted the pay offer, don't give us any extra we'll take the same."?
I think YOU are missing the point. Would you have preferred the ATCOs (after turning down the pay offer) to say, "Well actually the ATSAs and Engineers accepted the pay offer, don't give us any extra we'll take the same."?
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Do you honestly think that we would have all this bitterness if ATCOs, ATSAs and ATEs were all in the same union?? We certainly wouldn't have had the "divide and conquer" routine that even now is causing feelings to run high. Nor, if it ever came to it, would we have the problem of staff from one union crossing the picket line of staff from the other union.
Instead of putting all this exasperation into a war of words between ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs, why not put it into considering how ALL relevant staff might end up in just one union?
I suspect that that would be a prospect (no pun intended) to make our management go a little pale.
Instead of putting all this exasperation into a war of words between ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs, why not put it into considering how ALL relevant staff might end up in just one union?
I suspect that that would be a prospect (no pun intended) to make our management go a little pale.
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roger.
I take your point but I voted no to the offer and would not have crossed ATCO picket lines (sickie) unless there was a safety issue that had been agreed by the unions.
Et al..
Its about time that there was a single ATC union. The three unions (in effect) give management a tremendous advantage. Take a look at other privatised orgs. BA is a good place to start. Divide - conquer - walk all over.... It will take one good leader to stand up and offer his/her services to get the new union going - thats all. They would be killed in the rush. It aint me I'm afraid....
Some ATCO's (the 'ATCO only' brigade) would never want to be in the same union as support staff. Good grief - ATC support staff with 25 years + experience may even want to join a professional body!!!
Remember that ATCO's are a minority and whilst I agree that they are not the best paid in Europe they are far from the worst and most of the population would consider all of us to be quite highly paid. They would have no sympathy for the striking ATCO.
I take your point but I voted no to the offer and would not have crossed ATCO picket lines (sickie) unless there was a safety issue that had been agreed by the unions.
Et al..
Its about time that there was a single ATC union. The three unions (in effect) give management a tremendous advantage. Take a look at other privatised orgs. BA is a good place to start. Divide - conquer - walk all over.... It will take one good leader to stand up and offer his/her services to get the new union going - thats all. They would be killed in the rush. It aint me I'm afraid....
Some ATCO's (the 'ATCO only' brigade) would never want to be in the same union as support staff. Good grief - ATC support staff with 25 years + experience may even want to join a professional body!!!
Remember that ATCO's are a minority and whilst I agree that they are not the best paid in Europe they are far from the worst and most of the population would consider all of us to be quite highly paid. They would have no sympathy for the striking ATCO.
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Minesapint,
You're right we're not the worst paid controllers in Europe, but we're a lot closer than you think to being the worst paid, we come a close second to the Irish (Not counting the Eastern block)
You're right we're not the worst paid controllers in Europe, but we're a lot closer than you think to being the worst paid, we come a close second to the Irish (Not counting the Eastern block)