Comparable pay offer for ATCEs/ATSAs
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Would that be wise WA? Joking. We engineers don't really have a problem with anyone (apart from some of the 30+ year old kit we work on). Where our problem, as I see it, stems from is the "your not an ATCO so your scum" attitude that sometimes seems to come from some of our very professional and talented colleagues. Now I know this isn't the majority opinion, just as a militant engineer isn't the norm. It would be boring if we all got on swimmingly, wouldn't it.
Back to the point of this thread. I see the main problem with this ectional pay rise thing as a union issue. We all fall under one union right? Prospect. So how can they negoiate a pay rise, bung, bonus, whatever you want to call it for one section when it only took one section to have the pay deal rejected? I pay the same dues as anyone else in the union (I think - I could be wrong...) so why does my sub money go to getting someone else a payrise in the same company? Yes I know we whimps...errrr engineers voted yes, but the ATCOs voted no and the pay deal was scuppered. So surely if its all or nothing to reject a pay deal why isn't it all or nothing on any new rises or bungs that are so skillfully negotiated by our union friends?
The majority of engineers that I know do not have a problem with ATCOs, or anyone else for that matter. But we do have feelings, and we're only human, even if we do hide behind a screwdriver sometimes.
Bwatchbabe - when I made my life choice to be an engineer I knew I was never going to be the best paid in a company that had more than engineers in it. Thats fair enough. This venom you speak of I think is a little unfair. If you feel undervalued as an ATCO in the company try being an engineer who feels they have even less value in the company. Pull together all of us now. You never know, you might like being in bed with an engineer, as it were....
Back to the point of this thread. I see the main problem with this ectional pay rise thing as a union issue. We all fall under one union right? Prospect. So how can they negoiate a pay rise, bung, bonus, whatever you want to call it for one section when it only took one section to have the pay deal rejected? I pay the same dues as anyone else in the union (I think - I could be wrong...) so why does my sub money go to getting someone else a payrise in the same company? Yes I know we whimps...errrr engineers voted yes, but the ATCOs voted no and the pay deal was scuppered. So surely if its all or nothing to reject a pay deal why isn't it all or nothing on any new rises or bungs that are so skillfully negotiated by our union friends?
The majority of engineers that I know do not have a problem with ATCOs, or anyone else for that matter. But we do have feelings, and we're only human, even if we do hide behind a screwdriver sometimes.
Bwatchbabe - when I made my life choice to be an engineer I knew I was never going to be the best paid in a company that had more than engineers in it. Thats fair enough. This venom you speak of I think is a little unfair. If you feel undervalued as an ATCO in the company try being an engineer who feels they have even less value in the company. Pull together all of us now. You never know, you might like being in bed with an engineer, as it were....
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The ATCO side rejected the offer the other two did not.
So you cant throw your toys out of the pram now demanding more.
Within a few years ATCO pay negotiations will not be part of the rest of NATS like it or not.
Now despite the fact that assistants are part of the big cog that keeps the organisation going they are so overpaid it is im afraid somehing that will not last.
There is no point in having a go at me but that is the reality, i cant even imagine what the anual ATSA wage bill is but it will not stay the same forever.At some time new assistants will be on contracts that pay a lot less.Very similar to what happened in BA so that you dont have the situation where Cabin crew are earning 30 to 40k for the job they do.
The engineers help keep the equipment going for us all and without that we are goosed.In my own experience engineers are never etremley well paid in most companies so it would be difficult to judge whether they are earning enough or not.
We all hav our part to play but the ATCOs should not feel bad about looking after themselves we are the ones at the sharp end every day and we are the ones that could go to jail for fu..ing it up.
So you cant throw your toys out of the pram now demanding more.
Within a few years ATCO pay negotiations will not be part of the rest of NATS like it or not.
Now despite the fact that assistants are part of the big cog that keeps the organisation going they are so overpaid it is im afraid somehing that will not last.
There is no point in having a go at me but that is the reality, i cant even imagine what the anual ATSA wage bill is but it will not stay the same forever.At some time new assistants will be on contracts that pay a lot less.Very similar to what happened in BA so that you dont have the situation where Cabin crew are earning 30 to 40k for the job they do.
The engineers help keep the equipment going for us all and without that we are goosed.In my own experience engineers are never etremley well paid in most companies so it would be difficult to judge whether they are earning enough or not.
We all hav our part to play but the ATCOs should not feel bad about looking after themselves we are the ones at the sharp end every day and we are the ones that could go to jail for fu..ing it up.
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More self hero worship. What a yawn.
Now it seems we have a split between engineers that work on major projects (that become operational systems) and those that support these former projects - or use the facilities created - on a daily basis. We don't require 'management' do divide and trash us - we do it ourselves!
Personally I am really surprised that 'they' gave in to the ATCO's demands - I would not have but, I am not a former ATCO pretending to be a senior manager that has just given in to ATCO demands, am I!
One union - one branch and the sooner the better. Some of the union reps are sounding more like managers every day and having their nests feathered for them.
Now it seems we have a split between engineers that work on major projects (that become operational systems) and those that support these former projects - or use the facilities created - on a daily basis. We don't require 'management' do divide and trash us - we do it ourselves!
Personally I am really surprised that 'they' gave in to the ATCO's demands - I would not have but, I am not a former ATCO pretending to be a senior manager that has just given in to ATCO demands, am I!
One union - one branch and the sooner the better. Some of the union reps are sounding more like managers every day and having their nests feathered for them.
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I am not suggesting that engineers do not have a resposiblity for accurate equip and controllers rely on that every day.
However the chances of us getting it wrong and ending up in the doo are greater than for assistants and engineers despite the role they play in the safe/orderly running of ATC.
I am not going to feel bad about wanting more money/recognition or singing the praises of other controllers just because some assistants/engineers dont like the fact we were offered more money(which i rejected) or that they think we are a bit arrogant , which makes very good controllers by the way!
If controllers talk about going to jail or the pressure etc...its not because they are living a hollywood fantasy its because they want to be heard because they are pissed off and that does not put you in a good frame of mind to keep planes apart.
However the chances of us getting it wrong and ending up in the doo are greater than for assistants and engineers despite the role they play in the safe/orderly running of ATC.
I am not going to feel bad about wanting more money/recognition or singing the praises of other controllers just because some assistants/engineers dont like the fact we were offered more money(which i rejected) or that they think we are a bit arrogant , which makes very good controllers by the way!
If controllers talk about going to jail or the pressure etc...its not because they are living a hollywood fantasy its because they want to be heard because they are pissed off and that does not put you in a good frame of mind to keep planes apart.
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You hit the nail right on the head there jocko my friend. You're just looking after yourselves. Thats what we engineers/ATSAs are doing by getting all annoyed at people just like you that seem to cause more problems than you fix. I myself have alot of responsiblity in my job. If I mess up things could go really wrong for ATCOs, and would you believe there are more things I could do wrong to cause problems than you. You have very well laid out procedures for most things. Ok, you do have to manage this and one flight going the same way each day will probably never take the same route twice etc, but my point is that my job is far less procedural than yours. Now don't bite my head off on that (I know your gonna, you see like the type...). I don't really know an awful lot about your job, although I have to know enough to know what the pressures on you are and what you need fixing first, why you can't talk at times and why you can at others. But I guarantee you I know more about yours than you do about mine.
All the rest of the SAME UNION want is parity. nothing more. Maybe our BEC types were niave in believing the management that there was no more cash. Thats not the point any more. The point now is I pay the same union dues as you, so why should my dues pay for your bigger pay rise? Just looking after myself chum!!
All the rest of the SAME UNION want is parity. nothing more. Maybe our BEC types were niave in believing the management that there was no more cash. Thats not the point any more. The point now is I pay the same union dues as you, so why should my dues pay for your bigger pay rise? Just looking after myself chum!!
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I am not going to bite your head off.Far from it.
I understand well your resposibilities.I was an engineer ( not with Nats) for several years so before you go off telling me what i am etc please think.
The euip you maintain is needed by us without question and without it we would be in a bad way.
However we do a different job with different pressures etc and i would like, along with i suggest a sizeable number of ATCOs ,separate negotiations on our pay and conditions.
Understand my friend that the way us ATCOs feel is not against you as a person or persons we have just had enough of the way we are treated for what i think quite rightly is one of the most responsible jobs anywhere.
Not having a go at you.
I understand well your resposibilities.I was an engineer ( not with Nats) for several years so before you go off telling me what i am etc please think.
The euip you maintain is needed by us without question and without it we would be in a bad way.
However we do a different job with different pressures etc and i would like, along with i suggest a sizeable number of ATCOs ,separate negotiations on our pay and conditions.
Understand my friend that the way us ATCOs feel is not against you as a person or persons we have just had enough of the way we are treated for what i think quite rightly is one of the most responsible jobs anywhere.
Not having a go at you.
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ASG - Many of my pals are engineers. That is not a precursor to me now slagging youse off 
but I would suggest that the 'in your head' pressures in each job are completely different. I worked with software before ATC - if I took my time or didn't fix things quite right the first time, sure it pissed the users off, but the time pressure to get the task done 'in my head' was not 'ever present'. (Whether the boss was happy is another matter.)
BUT it is a different ball game in ATC. We often only have seconds to make a critical decision - and believe me when two ac are closing at 15 miles a minute and every landline call you make is engaged, or every r/t call gets 'say again, was that for us?' - each second that that 'thing to do' doesn't get done makes the pressure rise and makes it more likely that another ac comes on frequency to put that 'to do' item further down the list. And we can't just shout clocks off or take a timeout to think about it, the situation just keeps developing ..... at 500kts.
I'm not introducing an us+them mentality, but ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs do different jobs, all needed as a vital part of the team, but, different jobs. And in the same logical vein I don't see nurses asking for parity with doctors.
but I would suggest that the 'in your head' pressures in each job are completely different. I worked with software before ATC - if I took my time or didn't fix things quite right the first time, sure it pissed the users off, but the time pressure to get the task done 'in my head' was not 'ever present'. (Whether the boss was happy is another matter.)BUT it is a different ball game in ATC. We often only have seconds to make a critical decision - and believe me when two ac are closing at 15 miles a minute and every landline call you make is engaged, or every r/t call gets 'say again, was that for us?' - each second that that 'thing to do' doesn't get done makes the pressure rise and makes it more likely that another ac comes on frequency to put that 'to do' item further down the list. And we can't just shout clocks off or take a timeout to think about it, the situation just keeps developing ..... at 500kts.
I'm not introducing an us+them mentality, but ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs do different jobs, all needed as a vital part of the team, but, different jobs. And in the same logical vein I don't see nurses asking for parity with doctors.
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Let me deal with each reply separtaly if you will. Firstly Jocko.
May I congratulate you on getting away from the engineering way of life. I wish I was clever enough to get a better job. I realise its nothing personal, and I also realise we do different jobs, and thats fair enough. Lifes a bitch then you go home right? Your job is extremely responsible. I'd hate to have to feel the same sort of pressure you fine people undergo every day. However. We too, as engineers, are very badly treated. As so many of your colleagues like to point point out alot, its the ATCOs that make the money for the company. So imagine how poorly a mis-manager treats us lowly engineers? The majority of ATCOs and indeed ATSAs I've come across in my 3 years with NATS (to the day thank you very much) are very fine people who would do most anything to help you. But on pay, we need to get a few things sorted. I understand you earn more than me. Your job demands it. But on a pay rise? Why should you get more? I'm a cog in the wheel just so much as you are. So why should my cog attract less than you? Am I not as important? I'd like to hear from anyone who truely believes that an engineer, especially a systems engineer like me, is not needed and the whole business of ATC could work without them? (By the by all engineers, I couldn't do my job without the support of all engineers. We are brothers, so please don'tget all excited and get upset) I see your point. We all do. Can you see my point? Certainly on the union dues issue? All we ask is for parity of payrise, not pay.
Aunt:
Are you saying I'm making up the pressure of having an ATCO being very unpleasant and quite upset that he can't contact a big tin tube on the phone cos of my personal failings as a human being? You said you worked in software devolpment, so you have no experience of first line and second line engineering support? Try it. Its not as easy as you might think. I grant you we all do different jobs. I'd be called an ATCO if I did the same job as you right? You have gotten my whinge a little confuddled. I'm not asking for parity of pay with you. I'd never get that. All I'm asking for is parity of pay rise, certainly while we're in the same un-union.
Your point about the pressure of things happening quick is well taken. I've seen it quite a few time myself. You haven't had to deal with a very (understandably) irate ATCO/LAS/Watch SUP however who is blaming your mother for the design of the whole system. A tad melodramatic I feel, but I'm at home and supping on a few beers after a long boring day, so let me be.
My ATCO friends, lets be clear about this. We need to stick together. You need us just as much as we need you, if you realise that or not. Lets not get all excited about who deserves what and why cos ATCOs win hands down every time. A little recognition from our chums the "top team" (contradiction in terms there if you ask me...) wouldn't go amiss though.
May I congratulate you on getting away from the engineering way of life. I wish I was clever enough to get a better job. I realise its nothing personal, and I also realise we do different jobs, and thats fair enough. Lifes a bitch then you go home right? Your job is extremely responsible. I'd hate to have to feel the same sort of pressure you fine people undergo every day. However. We too, as engineers, are very badly treated. As so many of your colleagues like to point point out alot, its the ATCOs that make the money for the company. So imagine how poorly a mis-manager treats us lowly engineers? The majority of ATCOs and indeed ATSAs I've come across in my 3 years with NATS (to the day thank you very much) are very fine people who would do most anything to help you. But on pay, we need to get a few things sorted. I understand you earn more than me. Your job demands it. But on a pay rise? Why should you get more? I'm a cog in the wheel just so much as you are. So why should my cog attract less than you? Am I not as important? I'd like to hear from anyone who truely believes that an engineer, especially a systems engineer like me, is not needed and the whole business of ATC could work without them? (By the by all engineers, I couldn't do my job without the support of all engineers. We are brothers, so please don'tget all excited and get upset) I see your point. We all do. Can you see my point? Certainly on the union dues issue? All we ask is for parity of payrise, not pay.
Aunt:
Are you saying I'm making up the pressure of having an ATCO being very unpleasant and quite upset that he can't contact a big tin tube on the phone cos of my personal failings as a human being? You said you worked in software devolpment, so you have no experience of first line and second line engineering support? Try it. Its not as easy as you might think. I grant you we all do different jobs. I'd be called an ATCO if I did the same job as you right? You have gotten my whinge a little confuddled. I'm not asking for parity of pay with you. I'd never get that. All I'm asking for is parity of pay rise, certainly while we're in the same un-union.
Your point about the pressure of things happening quick is well taken. I've seen it quite a few time myself. You haven't had to deal with a very (understandably) irate ATCO/LAS/Watch SUP however who is blaming your mother for the design of the whole system. A tad melodramatic I feel, but I'm at home and supping on a few beers after a long boring day, so let me be.
My ATCO friends, lets be clear about this. We need to stick together. You need us just as much as we need you, if you realise that or not. Lets not get all excited about who deserves what and why cos ATCOs win hands down every time. A little recognition from our chums the "top team" (contradiction in terms there if you ask me...) wouldn't go amiss though.
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Jocko. I pray to God, and any other deity that springs to mind, that I never ever have the misfortune to work even in the same building as you, with your attitude towards your co-workers. yes, co-workers. Telling us we are "overpaid". Well thanks a bunch. It seems that the divide and conquer technique gets your vote. I listened to a WATCH MANAGER talking to an ATSA today. Thats a SATCO, very senior, been in the job an awfully long time. According to him, the ATSA would be despeartely needed in teh event of a FLOP, so much so that he will not allow him to be used for other purposes...(anyone in TC may know what I mean). Ask that SATCO if he thinks the ATSA is overpaid, and I know that he will say NO.
Grow up Jocko. We have never asked for pay parity, and we have not "thrown our toys out". We feel that we deserve the same percentage pay rise as the rest of the company.
I have a good relationships with ATCOs - always have done. But I have only ever worked with grown up ones.
Grow up Jocko. We have never asked for pay parity, and we have not "thrown our toys out". We feel that we deserve the same percentage pay rise as the rest of the company.
I have a good relationships with ATCOs - always have done. But I have only ever worked with grown up ones.
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Oh dear Mr Chips have i touched a raw nerve.Firstly you dont know me so you cant really comment on me as a person.I have a very good relationship in and out of work with assistants, however you are paid lots for what you do.The fact is i reckon most controllers agree with me but not everyone is prepared to say it.This is not a personal attack on you or any assistant but you are extremely well paid for what you do.
Im sure a fireman putting his life at risk would love to know what you are paid.Plus the asistants said yes to the pay deal,we said no.Where was your solidarity(if you said no then fair enough).
like it or not you wont get much sympathy from most controllers regarding your pay because they believe you are paid too much anyway and we have more than enough on our plate to deal with.
Im sure a fireman putting his life at risk would love to know what you are paid.Plus the asistants said yes to the pay deal,we said no.Where was your solidarity(if you said no then fair enough).
like it or not you wont get much sympathy from most controllers regarding your pay because they believe you are paid too much anyway and we have more than enough on our plate to deal with.
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Excuse me for butting in on hallowed ground, but whilst NATS management regard ATCAs as eminently dispensible/replacable, and engineers to a lesser extent but with the same disdain, neither profession is going to achieve the recognition it deserves.
I know that a good atca is worth their weight in real ale, and a good engineer is worthy of the same accolade, but there is a no shortage of suitable people to fill such posts as and when required.
Compare this with atco's, at the moment, there is a shortage of expereinced atco's, and current traing schemes are barely keeping up with demand. This will be the case for the forseeable future.
A simple case of supply and demand, and perhaps you should wake up to that.
I know that a good atca is worth their weight in real ale, and a good engineer is worthy of the same accolade, but there is a no shortage of suitable people to fill such posts as and when required.
Compare this with atco's, at the moment, there is a shortage of expereinced atco's, and current traing schemes are barely keeping up with demand. This will be the case for the forseeable future.
A simple case of supply and demand, and perhaps you should wake up to that.
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Jocko, your arrogance is staggering.
Firstly, to generalise and say that all ATSAs are paid too much is wrong. Don't forget that many ATSAs are now undertaking tasks that were once ATCO responsibilities (FIR, Gatwick lighting panel, Flow, and the previous SSA tasks at LATCC to name a few). Does that mean that you think that ATCOs were overpaid when they undertook these tasks?
Are you aware of all the ATSA tasks around the country (TC, Swanick, MACC, Oceanic, Heathrow Tower?) or are you baseing your sweeping comments on just your unit?
I don't begrudge you a penny and think that all ATCO deserve far more than they get paid at present. Obviously perserving your ego is just as important as any pay rise you will get.
If HCS fails tomorrow, stand up and tell the ATSAs who will be running around like headless chickens that they all get paid too much. I'm sure that will be much appreciated.
Firstly, to generalise and say that all ATSAs are paid too much is wrong. Don't forget that many ATSAs are now undertaking tasks that were once ATCO responsibilities (FIR, Gatwick lighting panel, Flow, and the previous SSA tasks at LATCC to name a few). Does that mean that you think that ATCOs were overpaid when they undertook these tasks?
Are you aware of all the ATSA tasks around the country (TC, Swanick, MACC, Oceanic, Heathrow Tower?) or are you baseing your sweeping comments on just your unit?
I don't begrudge you a penny and think that all ATCO deserve far more than they get paid at present. Obviously perserving your ego is just as important as any pay rise you will get.
If HCS fails tomorrow, stand up and tell the ATSAs who will be running around like headless chickens that they all get paid too much. I'm sure that will be much appreciated.
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From The Herald Archives
25 YEARS AGO
AS Britain's 850 traffic control assistants were called out on strike yesterday after three were suspended for not working normally, British Airways announced that the stalemate dispute is costing them £1.5m a day in lost revenue. The inconvenience and delay to thousands of passengers living on the reduced total of 60% of normal flights by all airlines serving the UK, will continue indefinitely.
I'm sure that this will get a few replies....
25 YEARS AGO
AS Britain's 850 traffic control assistants were called out on strike yesterday after three were suspended for not working normally, British Airways announced that the stalemate dispute is costing them £1.5m a day in lost revenue. The inconvenience and delay to thousands of passengers living on the reduced total of 60% of normal flights by all airlines serving the UK, will continue indefinitely.
I'm sure that this will get a few replies....
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Assistants dont like it when the issue of their pay is raised because deep down you know you are on a winner as far as what you earn is concerned.I fully accept you have your part to play and i am not questioning your abilities or work rate but like it or nor you as assistants are paid a lot of dosh for what you do.
Im not going to change that and im not demanding you get a pay cut but im willing to bet that within X years new assistants will be on new contracts that pay considerably less.Just like cabin crew with BA.
And to suggest that i need to grow up because im questioning what assistants are paid,WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
There are controllers that think we are paid enough and are not prepared to say no or take action,however the fact i dont agree with them does not mean i cant sit beside them and have a joke and a laugh and still work together to get the job done.
Im not going to change that and im not demanding you get a pay cut but im willing to bet that within X years new assistants will be on new contracts that pay considerably less.Just like cabin crew with BA.
And to suggest that i need to grow up because im questioning what assistants are paid,WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
There are controllers that think we are paid enough and are not prepared to say no or take action,however the fact i dont agree with them does not mean i cant sit beside them and have a joke and a laugh and still work together to get the job done.
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jocko0102
Look at the payscales- New Contract Airport ATSA's are on a lower scale
im willing to bet that within X years new assistants will be on new contracts that pay considerably less.
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Jocko... we are all well paid for what we do in this company... that's the reality.
The job of an ATCO is a pressured and responsible one... but you earn more than the average policeman, fire fighter, nurse, teacher and even many doctors... try and tell me you're more important to society than them... ?
I've been accused of being "Anti-ATCO" a good few times in the past. The reality is I have a great respect for the job an ATCO does. As I have a great respect for teachers, nurses, doctors etc etc. (maybe not the police!) However, all of these people need the support of those in their organisation who may earn less and have less responsibility in the front line. Burn your bridges with those that help you through your shift and you'll soon work out exactly how valuable their work is to you.
I'm just not keen on arrogant tw@ts, no matter what their profession.
The job of an ATCO is a pressured and responsible one... but you earn more than the average policeman, fire fighter, nurse, teacher and even many doctors... try and tell me you're more important to society than them... ?
I've been accused of being "Anti-ATCO" a good few times in the past. The reality is I have a great respect for the job an ATCO does. As I have a great respect for teachers, nurses, doctors etc etc. (maybe not the police!) However, all of these people need the support of those in their organisation who may earn less and have less responsibility in the front line. Burn your bridges with those that help you through your shift and you'll soon work out exactly how valuable their work is to you.
I'm just not keen on arrogant tw@ts, no matter what their profession.
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Jocko
I'm not going to get into an arguement with you because you obvioulsy have your own ill-informed opinion and I have mine. But I ask you again to consider the following. Are you fully aware of all the ATSA tasks at all the NATS units and the responsibilities with each position? If the answer is no, then it is quite unfair to generalise about ATSA pay. Pay comparisions between grades and occupations are nothing more than egotistical. Whilst I'm busy discussing my pay with a fireman (as you would like me to do), perhaps you would discuss yours with a Junior Doctor who has just done a 70 hour week for half your salary. And whilst we're at it, perhaps we'll get a 25 year old from the city to discuss his £100,000 bonus and at the end of this bun fight, we'll leave our mess to the cleaner on a minimum wage to clear up. What will it all achieve? Will you walk away feeling a better and more important person because you earn more than some of the others. Probably.
Whilst I would admit that ATSAs get paid well (not overpaid), their working conditions have changed a lot over the years. The previous post showing that there were 850 ATSAs in 1979 would need to be re-written today as the numbers have dropped to around 500. Every ATSA is working far harder than a few years ago. On top of that we have little job security, limited promotion prospects and a fear of worse to come. It is this that makes ATSAs react when you criticise our pay, not because we think we're on to a good thing. It is a real pity that you don't recognise the importance of everyone working as a team rather than post damaging and ill-informed personal attacks on the very same ATSA staff who may just bail you out of a hole the next time you are on duty.
I'm not going to get into an arguement with you because you obvioulsy have your own ill-informed opinion and I have mine. But I ask you again to consider the following. Are you fully aware of all the ATSA tasks at all the NATS units and the responsibilities with each position? If the answer is no, then it is quite unfair to generalise about ATSA pay. Pay comparisions between grades and occupations are nothing more than egotistical. Whilst I'm busy discussing my pay with a fireman (as you would like me to do), perhaps you would discuss yours with a Junior Doctor who has just done a 70 hour week for half your salary. And whilst we're at it, perhaps we'll get a 25 year old from the city to discuss his £100,000 bonus and at the end of this bun fight, we'll leave our mess to the cleaner on a minimum wage to clear up. What will it all achieve? Will you walk away feeling a better and more important person because you earn more than some of the others. Probably.
Whilst I would admit that ATSAs get paid well (not overpaid), their working conditions have changed a lot over the years. The previous post showing that there were 850 ATSAs in 1979 would need to be re-written today as the numbers have dropped to around 500. Every ATSA is working far harder than a few years ago. On top of that we have little job security, limited promotion prospects and a fear of worse to come. It is this that makes ATSAs react when you criticise our pay, not because we think we're on to a good thing. It is a real pity that you don't recognise the importance of everyone working as a team rather than post damaging and ill-informed personal attacks on the very same ATSA staff who may just bail you out of a hole the next time you are on duty.
Last edited by Karoshi; 3rd Sep 2002 at 16:03.