F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
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F15 CM & Christmas!
Whatho you lot out there!
It's been a while since I contributed but I've been stalking - of the deer variety.
Yet again this bloody saga is stretching away into the future with no apparent signs of drawing to a conclusion of any kind. Spot and his family are facing another Christams with the CM hanging over their heads, and I know that it is having a serious affect on their collective morale.
Why doesn't everyone reading this site send a Christmas card expressing best wishes and support? You don't have had to have met them but, trust me, the four of them are very good people who could do with a tangible expression of support and understanding at, what MUST be, an extremely difficult time for them. Send your cards (not the ones I've drawn - which I hope you will buy anyway - as that would be boring) to Spot c/o Officers Mess RAF Leuchars. You can get the BFPO number easily enough.
Let's show Spot and his family that there is more to life than us sounding off against the system - let's DO something for them this Christmas.
Regards to you all
Al
It's been a while since I contributed but I've been stalking - of the deer variety.
Yet again this bloody saga is stretching away into the future with no apparent signs of drawing to a conclusion of any kind. Spot and his family are facing another Christams with the CM hanging over their heads, and I know that it is having a serious affect on their collective morale.
Why doesn't everyone reading this site send a Christmas card expressing best wishes and support? You don't have had to have met them but, trust me, the four of them are very good people who could do with a tangible expression of support and understanding at, what MUST be, an extremely difficult time for them. Send your cards (not the ones I've drawn - which I hope you will buy anyway - as that would be boring) to Spot c/o Officers Mess RAF Leuchars. You can get the BFPO number easily enough.
Let's show Spot and his family that there is more to life than us sounding off against the system - let's DO something for them this Christmas.
Regards to you all
Al
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Date of Court Martial now confirmed as Monday 27th January 2003. It is anticipated that it will take 5 days to complete. The venue is to be the Royal Navy base at Faslane near Helesburgh, Scotland.
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The Xmas Card idea is a good one and fully supported by the ATC Forum admin guys here.
Please take a few minutes if you can to show your support for a colleague when he and his family need it most.
Many thanks.
Please take a few minutes if you can to show your support for a colleague when he and his family need it most.
Many thanks.
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The Court Martial will be held on MOD property in Helensburgh town - the venue is not in a secure area so access for the public will not be a problem.
Access for the public is likely to be restricted by a seating capacity of approximately 30. This will be on a 'first come first served' basis.
To have some idea of how many Ppruners (or associates of) are likely to attend it might be helpful if those interested could E-mail me at :
[email protected]
Date of Court Martial remains 27th Jan 2003.
I will post details of how many have shown interest in attending and will give specific directions to the venue when I have them.
Access for the public is likely to be restricted by a seating capacity of approximately 30. This will be on a 'first come first served' basis.
To have some idea of how many Ppruners (or associates of) are likely to attend it might be helpful if those interested could E-mail me at :
[email protected]
Date of Court Martial remains 27th Jan 2003.
I will post details of how many have shown interest in attending and will give specific directions to the venue when I have them.
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Just a reminder - Spot's Court Martial starts on 27th Jan.
There's a great deal of interest from the media and, to his great credit, Spot has shunned the exposure. Expect to see this featured on the TV, radio and in the newspapers. The charges being brought by the RAF carry a 4 year jail sentence; I guess he'd be the first british atco to go to jail for providing RIS. Give it some thought before you plug-in!
I've heard the term "duty of care" being bandied about. I must ask, where was the Airforces' "duty of care" in encouraging/allowing/insisting that one of their controllers plug-in having buried his father a matter of 3 days earlier? It stinks!
There's a great deal of interest from the media and, to his great credit, Spot has shunned the exposure. Expect to see this featured on the TV, radio and in the newspapers. The charges being brought by the RAF carry a 4 year jail sentence; I guess he'd be the first british atco to go to jail for providing RIS. Give it some thought before you plug-in!
I've heard the term "duty of care" being bandied about. I must ask, where was the Airforces' "duty of care" in encouraging/allowing/insisting that one of their controllers plug-in having buried his father a matter of 3 days earlier? It stinks!
Mickydrip
Thanks for the update; I was about to enquire anyway.
Please keep the news flowing to keep this topic at or near the top. This has implications for all of us in ATC, whether military or civil, so everybody should be interested.
Best wishes to Spot and his family. Keep believing that justice will prevail, as I'm sure it will.
Regards, NN
Thanks for the update; I was about to enquire anyway.
Please keep the news flowing to keep this topic at or near the top. This has implications for all of us in ATC, whether military or civil, so everybody should be interested.
Best wishes to Spot and his family. Keep believing that justice will prevail, as I'm sure it will.
Regards, NN
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Kind words
Thanks for the kind words, NN.
Spot and his family are struggling to stay sane and will draw comfort from your comments. Although he's been discouraged from commenting on PPRUNE, I know he reads all the items on this sad subject. Please try to keep your colleagues focussed on this travesty of justice.
Best wishes. and watch your 6.
Mickydrip
Spot and his family are struggling to stay sane and will draw comfort from your comments. Although he's been discouraged from commenting on PPRUNE, I know he reads all the items on this sad subject. Please try to keep your colleagues focussed on this travesty of justice.
Best wishes. and watch your 6.
Mickydrip
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As the date approaches, we should all keep Spot in our thoughts. There but for the grace of God .......
This topic will be stickied to the top till we see justice prevail.
Spot, please take courage and hope from the support of all your comrades and fellow ATC staff here on PPRuNe. We are all rooting for you and if there's anything you need to help you through, please, please, just ask.
Best regards and all the luck in the world.
PPRuNe Radar
This topic will be stickied to the top till we see justice prevail.
Spot, please take courage and hope from the support of all your comrades and fellow ATC staff here on PPRuNe. We are all rooting for you and if there's anything you need to help you through, please, please, just ask.
Best regards and all the luck in the world.
PPRuNe Radar
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F15 CM
Micky Drip and I have discussed "duty of care" on a number of occasions, and he's right to air it here since it is a fundamental point in this whole sad saga.
I've re-read my commission parchment. To the uninitiated, it is a document, signed by HM The Queen, in which "We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage, and good Conduct......." appoints an individual officer in the armed forces. It is the whole basis of what is expected of an officer, therefore a manager, during their Service. From that document come Queen's Regulations and the myriad orders and instructions to all ranks which define closely what is required of them.
I am astounded that the Court of Inquiry (presumably one was held) did not question the action's of Spot's superiors all the way up the line. It has never been sufficient to discover what happened and apportion blame, in any accident, without divining the reasons why it happened. Whatever the outcome of the CM I hope, most sincerely, that further investigations will be demanded to find out why Spot was ever allowed to sit on console so soon after his father's death. I hope there is someone out there prepared to run this one down.
Best of luck Spot, and I'm sure things will pan out. See you on the 27th.
I've re-read my commission parchment. To the uninitiated, it is a document, signed by HM The Queen, in which "We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage, and good Conduct......." appoints an individual officer in the armed forces. It is the whole basis of what is expected of an officer, therefore a manager, during their Service. From that document come Queen's Regulations and the myriad orders and instructions to all ranks which define closely what is required of them.
I am astounded that the Court of Inquiry (presumably one was held) did not question the action's of Spot's superiors all the way up the line. It has never been sufficient to discover what happened and apportion blame, in any accident, without divining the reasons why it happened. Whatever the outcome of the CM I hope, most sincerely, that further investigations will be demanded to find out why Spot was ever allowed to sit on console so soon after his father's death. I hope there is someone out there prepared to run this one down.
Best of luck Spot, and I'm sure things will pan out. See you on the 27th.
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Thanks
Thanks to you, PPRuNe Radar, for putting this sad topic at the top of the tree; I'm very grateful for the kindness and I know that Spot and all his friends will be too.
This fiasco is important to us all, civil and military. Spot and his family are up against it, big-time, but it could so easily have been you, me or anyone else reading this forum. Like you, I've been around long enough to recognise and acknowledge that everyone, without exception, makes mistakes; there's even a civil ATSIN (16 OR 17?) on the subject. Yet this man is being crucified and ostracised by an employer that's looking for a scapegoat, yet doesn't have the courage to admit that Spot has been let down by his managers. Not surprisingly, there are many side-issues in this case and I doubt that any will see the light of day; were they to be aired, RAF ATC would be seen for what it is, a bunch of extremely dedicated and professional controllers being let down by some of its own management.
It still stinks and I am still extremely angry that the RAF should prosecute one individual, when it is clear that there was a great deal wrong with the system within which he was working. Yes, things have changed as a direct result of this accident; doesn't that in itself speak volumes? But I do have to ask, why is it Spot that's in the dock, facing a prison sentence, and not his managers ?
This fiasco is important to us all, civil and military. Spot and his family are up against it, big-time, but it could so easily have been you, me or anyone else reading this forum. Like you, I've been around long enough to recognise and acknowledge that everyone, without exception, makes mistakes; there's even a civil ATSIN (16 OR 17?) on the subject. Yet this man is being crucified and ostracised by an employer that's looking for a scapegoat, yet doesn't have the courage to admit that Spot has been let down by his managers. Not surprisingly, there are many side-issues in this case and I doubt that any will see the light of day; were they to be aired, RAF ATC would be seen for what it is, a bunch of extremely dedicated and professional controllers being let down by some of its own management.
It still stinks and I am still extremely angry that the RAF should prosecute one individual, when it is clear that there was a great deal wrong with the system within which he was working. Yes, things have changed as a direct result of this accident; doesn't that in itself speak volumes? But I do have to ask, why is it Spot that's in the dock, facing a prison sentence, and not his managers ?
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F15 CM
There is a tremendous amount of disgust about what's going on with this prosecution but, whilst no one can change anything, yet, it's worthwhile pointing out some of the anomolies which surround USAF flights in UK airspace.
Firstly, I well remember a USAF F4 calling me (Southern Radar which gives you a clue when it happened) to say that "My buddy's on fire. Request diversion to the nearest suitable airfield". When asked if he wanted to "declare an emergency?" the response was "Huh? No thanks!". Too much paperwork? In those days USAF crews were briefed by youngsters like me (I was, relatively speaking, in 1970) on UK military ATC procedures which took an hour or so. I never believed that that was sufficient because the aircrew found it immensely difficult to accept that we had such autonomy. After all, they were (are still?) used to procedural control - radar was something they didn't understand at home as it didn't exist in the transit phase of a flight. Perhaps it does today - I don't know - but I remain convinced that USAF crews are ignorant of what we can provide and what we expect in return.
Whatever the outcome of the CM, someone needs to ensure that USAF crews are made FULLY conversant with UK ATC procedures as it is vitally important that ATCO's, no matter their persuasion, have confidence that visitors are aware of what we do in the UK and what we expect of them in return.
Closer to home, Judge Advocates are clued-up people, and I'd be very surprised if the issue of managerial control - or the lack of it - wasn't questioned. It happened a couple of years ago. Let's hope it happens again in this case for the benefit of all.
Firstly, I well remember a USAF F4 calling me (Southern Radar which gives you a clue when it happened) to say that "My buddy's on fire. Request diversion to the nearest suitable airfield". When asked if he wanted to "declare an emergency?" the response was "Huh? No thanks!". Too much paperwork? In those days USAF crews were briefed by youngsters like me (I was, relatively speaking, in 1970) on UK military ATC procedures which took an hour or so. I never believed that that was sufficient because the aircrew found it immensely difficult to accept that we had such autonomy. After all, they were (are still?) used to procedural control - radar was something they didn't understand at home as it didn't exist in the transit phase of a flight. Perhaps it does today - I don't know - but I remain convinced that USAF crews are ignorant of what we can provide and what we expect in return.
Whatever the outcome of the CM, someone needs to ensure that USAF crews are made FULLY conversant with UK ATC procedures as it is vitally important that ATCO's, no matter their persuasion, have confidence that visitors are aware of what we do in the UK and what we expect of them in return.
Closer to home, Judge Advocates are clued-up people, and I'd be very surprised if the issue of managerial control - or the lack of it - wasn't questioned. It happened a couple of years ago. Let's hope it happens again in this case for the benefit of all.
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The CM will commence at 2pm on Monday 27th Jan.
The venue is the Drumfork Community Centre, Churchill Square, Helensburgh, Scotland G849HL. This is a community centre on a naval married quarters site on the NE side of town.
For a better clue, use www.multimap.com and do a search on the postcode.
Warning! Seating for the public is extremely limited.
The President of the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers and 2 other senior executives will attend for the duration of the CM. The Guild have been very supportive throughout and are in contact with the defence team.
I know all ATCOs will be wishing that justice prevails for Spot and that the charges are dismissed in very short order.
The venue is the Drumfork Community Centre, Churchill Square, Helensburgh, Scotland G849HL. This is a community centre on a naval married quarters site on the NE side of town.
For a better clue, use www.multimap.com and do a search on the postcode.
Warning! Seating for the public is extremely limited.
The President of the Guild of Air Traffic Controllers and 2 other senior executives will attend for the duration of the CM. The Guild have been very supportive throughout and are in contact with the defence team.
I know all ATCOs will be wishing that justice prevails for Spot and that the charges are dismissed in very short order.
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Bearing in mind the remoteness of the Court Martial site and the limited public access that Dick referred to, would it be possible for someone to post a resume of events after each day? Hopefully we will get only one !!
Best of luck Spot.
Best of luck Spot.