F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
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For Spot: Spot, you have a lot of mates, acquaintances, colleagues and people who have bounced into and glanced off you over the years who are all rooting for you - I got phoned at work in Brum today from Germany with several old mates asking after you. For what its worth, despite his scouse roots, Tommy T is about the best example of the above I can think of - just don't buy a car stereo off him!
For Tommy: Good on you for what you're doing mate, the Rottie was sad you weren't at work today! Who's the Judge Advocate out of interest?
Manly hugs and firm handshakes to you both.
XXXX
Stu B
For Tommy: Good on you for what you're doing mate, the Rottie was sad you weren't at work today! Who's the Judge Advocate out of interest?
Manly hugs and firm handshakes to you both.
XXXX
Stu B
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MickeyDrip
Great updates. Spot has my mobile number. Could you call me and let me know if he still needs hard copies of the signals, one of which I posted the other day - the number he gave me doesn't seem to work.
I was at a meeting of a number of civilian and ex mil types today - they all asked me to pass on support to Spot. He is totally in our thoughts and we will only be satisfied when this vindictive farce is over and he is free of the whole disgraceful nightmare!
Great updates. Spot has my mobile number. Could you call me and let me know if he still needs hard copies of the signals, one of which I posted the other day - the number he gave me doesn't seem to work.
I was at a meeting of a number of civilian and ex mil types today - they all asked me to pass on support to Spot. He is totally in our thoughts and we will only be satisfied when this vindictive farce is over and he is free of the whole disgraceful nightmare!
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Spot,
It feels that the last time we met, in the arrivals hall at Brize, was eons ago. I'm appalled that you have been kept waiting for so long for this trumped up trial to take place. I would like to confirm that everyone at the unit where I'm presently serving is behind you all the way. We wish you and your Defence good fortune in proving your innocence and look forward the passing of the only sensible verdict.
My regards also to Sue, who will probably only remember me as one of a group of oafs who trashed her kitchen whilst making garlic sandwiches very late one night many moons ago!
It feels that the last time we met, in the arrivals hall at Brize, was eons ago. I'm appalled that you have been kept waiting for so long for this trumped up trial to take place. I would like to confirm that everyone at the unit where I'm presently serving is behind you all the way. We wish you and your Defence good fortune in proving your innocence and look forward the passing of the only sensible verdict.
My regards also to Sue, who will probably only remember me as one of a group of oafs who trashed her kitchen whilst making garlic sandwiches very late one night many moons ago!
A really irritating PPRuNer
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Spot (+family),
we've never met, and this is my first visit to the ATC Thread as I normally live on the Chinook one.
My thoughts are with you at this time. It would appear that the RAF has not changed on iota. The finger pointing and sloping of responsibilities still goes on. I'm amazed that there is anyone still serving below the rank of chief of the greasy pole!
I have just read the thread from start to finish and I hope you take great comfort from the support and belief in you by many people.
I have a fair knowledge of the mindset of the RAF in situations such as this. If there is anything I can offer, it is yours for the asking.
To quote the father of Rick Cook, one of the Chinook pilots - "Justice has no expiry date".
I wish you and yours, Sir, every wish in the world for a correct and just outcome.
Best Wishes
Brian
we've never met, and this is my first visit to the ATC Thread as I normally live on the Chinook one.
My thoughts are with you at this time. It would appear that the RAF has not changed on iota. The finger pointing and sloping of responsibilities still goes on. I'm amazed that there is anyone still serving below the rank of chief of the greasy pole!
I have just read the thread from start to finish and I hope you take great comfort from the support and belief in you by many people.
I have a fair knowledge of the mindset of the RAF in situations such as this. If there is anything I can offer, it is yours for the asking.
To quote the father of Rick Cook, one of the Chinook pilots - "Justice has no expiry date".
I wish you and yours, Sir, every wish in the world for a correct and just outcome.
Best Wishes
Brian
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As the potential for more OOA jobs looms large - what lessons have been learnt? Spot MIGHT gain a small crumb of comfort if he knew that publicity of this, and similar cases, had been used for other's benefit...It sounds like a glib comment, but it is heartfelt - keep your pecker up mate; the just outcome must prevail.
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GR
I believe from a legal perspective the Prosecution would object to an FC on the grounds of lack of impartiality. As a controller the FC has a vested interest in the outcome of the case. Furthermore, as a specialist in the field, the FC would have massive influence during jury deliberations (the others would naturally ask the resident expert for their view). Such an expert is undesirable for the prosecution, when they are certainly going to see this case for the absolute travesty which it so clearly is.
RB
I believe from a legal perspective the Prosecution would object to an FC on the grounds of lack of impartiality. As a controller the FC has a vested interest in the outcome of the case. Furthermore, as a specialist in the field, the FC would have massive influence during jury deliberations (the others would naturally ask the resident expert for their view). Such an expert is undesirable for the prosecution, when they are certainly going to see this case for the absolute travesty which it so clearly is.
RB
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Hmm, as stated, the implication was that the defence had objected.
I could understand the prosecution objecting for the very reasons stated by remedial, but not for the defence to object.
maybe it was a typo ?
I could understand the prosecution objecting for the very reasons stated by remedial, but not for the defence to object.
maybe it was a typo ?
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Following on from Fire 'n' Forget and Ghostrider, I too am a bit bemused about the FC being objected to by the Defence ... perhaps he/she was a Surveillance specialist? Otherwise I would think any FC weaponeer (ie controller) worth their salt would be useful to Spot and, indeed, the rest of the Board.
I do hope that this is not a reflection of the traditional rivalry between our branches. Spot and his family can be sure that our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
FCs are now being instructed to assess the SALT in the area we are operating and offer only a FIS below the nearest level 1000'+ above the SALT. In other words, any captain electing to fly at a level below the SALT will automatically be in receipt of, at best, a FIS. Even so, we are also being told to instruct the crews that terrain clearance is their responsibility throughout, and we have to get an acknowledgement.
My very best wishes to you and yours Spot.
I do hope that this is not a reflection of the traditional rivalry between our branches. Spot and his family can be sure that our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.
FCs are now being instructed to assess the SALT in the area we are operating and offer only a FIS below the nearest level 1000'+ above the SALT. In other words, any captain electing to fly at a level below the SALT will automatically be in receipt of, at best, a FIS. Even so, we are also being told to instruct the crews that terrain clearance is their responsibility throughout, and we have to get an acknowledgement.
My very best wishes to you and yours Spot.
Thread Starter
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Day3 Wed 29 Jan 03
Day 3, Wednesday 29th Jan 03.
Firstly thanks to everyone from Spot and Sue for all the good wishes and support; don’t be shy, keep it coming because they’re both surprised and delighted that so many of you care, but isn’t that the sort of people they are?
To answer a couple of points that have arisen in recent correspondence:
1. The name of the Judge Advocate is Edmwnd Hoelwyn-Hughes (spelling taken from the Daily Mail so I hope it’s OK).
2. There are a couple of queries from our Fighter Control colleagues concerning the removal of the FC specialist; I made a careful note of the reasoning on Day 1 and copy it for your information. An objection to any member of the Board can be made, under S29 (1) of the Airforce Act, on any reasonable grounds. The Defence team objected to Sqn Ldr Maguire, (not sure of the spelling), a Fighter Controller currently stationed at RAF Innsworth. It was argued that Sqn Ldr Maguire’s expertise could include matters which are special to the world of air traffic control. Experts views differ and the Defence team were apprehensive that the FC member may have an expert view, that the lay members did not, thereby prejudicing justice.
Finally, before I give a brief summary of todays events, you may be interested to know that membership of Gatco has increased dramatically as a result of recent events – a very wise move!
Ted Tilley of the Guild departed last evening, to be replaced by the President of Gatco, Richard Dawson. Three witnesses for the Prosecution were called today; the lead pilot of a Tornado formation operating in the area on the day of the accident plus 1 serving member of ATC at RAF Leuchars, and one ex member of the ATC Sqn. There were lots of questions regarding safety altitudes and the associated responsibilities of the pilot and the controller. More RIS and RAS was discussed. Spot was acknowledged as being “a very experienced, capable and competent controller” whose brother had been very seriously ill followed in quick succession by his Father, also being taken very seriously ill.
The Defence team explored the JSP 318A on the subject of safety altitudes, and the various pressure settings in use by transit aircraft. The subject of multiple inputs was discussed at length; there may be more on this subject tomorrow when the R/T tapes are expected to be played. At one point, the Board was asked to leave the court in order that a point of law, submitted by the Defence team, could be examined by the Judge Advocate. After a short adjournment, the Judge Advocate found in favour of the Defence team and the case continued.
The lead pilot of the Tornado formation was quizzed on the weather conditions in the area just 1 hour before the accident. He said that the snow showers were passing through rapidly and in some areas it was possible to fly comfortably beneath the cloud in the valleys, although the deteriorating visibility and lowering cloud base created “white-out” conditions. He was quizzed by the Defence team regarding the visible differences between the Tornado GR4 and the F15c, large fin, longer nose, different intakes etc; this may be leading somewhere......
In summary, yesterday was another day when things seemed togo to plan. Our rising hopes are tempered by the knowledge that the stakes are still high and that the Prosecution has 1 big batter to call tomorrow. Also in our minds is the fact that the widow of Lt Col Hyvonen, the flight leader, sits just 15 feet away; she is clearly upset by procedings.
On a lighter note, the Spot Support Group, received 2 rollickings today. The first from the landlady for making too much noise after the pubs kicked out – we’ve told Doleman to be quiet in future! The second was from the admin Sqn Ldr running the court who politely asked us to stop shaking our heads and making other such gestures during the giving of evidence by the Prosecution witnesses. We’ve asked Turner to stop muttering bo**ocks under his breath. Suitably chastised we left for the pub. More tomorrow.
Meanwhile, keep watching your 6.
Firstly thanks to everyone from Spot and Sue for all the good wishes and support; don’t be shy, keep it coming because they’re both surprised and delighted that so many of you care, but isn’t that the sort of people they are?
To answer a couple of points that have arisen in recent correspondence:
1. The name of the Judge Advocate is Edmwnd Hoelwyn-Hughes (spelling taken from the Daily Mail so I hope it’s OK).
2. There are a couple of queries from our Fighter Control colleagues concerning the removal of the FC specialist; I made a careful note of the reasoning on Day 1 and copy it for your information. An objection to any member of the Board can be made, under S29 (1) of the Airforce Act, on any reasonable grounds. The Defence team objected to Sqn Ldr Maguire, (not sure of the spelling), a Fighter Controller currently stationed at RAF Innsworth. It was argued that Sqn Ldr Maguire’s expertise could include matters which are special to the world of air traffic control. Experts views differ and the Defence team were apprehensive that the FC member may have an expert view, that the lay members did not, thereby prejudicing justice.
Finally, before I give a brief summary of todays events, you may be interested to know that membership of Gatco has increased dramatically as a result of recent events – a very wise move!
Ted Tilley of the Guild departed last evening, to be replaced by the President of Gatco, Richard Dawson. Three witnesses for the Prosecution were called today; the lead pilot of a Tornado formation operating in the area on the day of the accident plus 1 serving member of ATC at RAF Leuchars, and one ex member of the ATC Sqn. There were lots of questions regarding safety altitudes and the associated responsibilities of the pilot and the controller. More RIS and RAS was discussed. Spot was acknowledged as being “a very experienced, capable and competent controller” whose brother had been very seriously ill followed in quick succession by his Father, also being taken very seriously ill.
The Defence team explored the JSP 318A on the subject of safety altitudes, and the various pressure settings in use by transit aircraft. The subject of multiple inputs was discussed at length; there may be more on this subject tomorrow when the R/T tapes are expected to be played. At one point, the Board was asked to leave the court in order that a point of law, submitted by the Defence team, could be examined by the Judge Advocate. After a short adjournment, the Judge Advocate found in favour of the Defence team and the case continued.
The lead pilot of the Tornado formation was quizzed on the weather conditions in the area just 1 hour before the accident. He said that the snow showers were passing through rapidly and in some areas it was possible to fly comfortably beneath the cloud in the valleys, although the deteriorating visibility and lowering cloud base created “white-out” conditions. He was quizzed by the Defence team regarding the visible differences between the Tornado GR4 and the F15c, large fin, longer nose, different intakes etc; this may be leading somewhere......
In summary, yesterday was another day when things seemed togo to plan. Our rising hopes are tempered by the knowledge that the stakes are still high and that the Prosecution has 1 big batter to call tomorrow. Also in our minds is the fact that the widow of Lt Col Hyvonen, the flight leader, sits just 15 feet away; she is clearly upset by procedings.
On a lighter note, the Spot Support Group, received 2 rollickings today. The first from the landlady for making too much noise after the pubs kicked out – we’ve told Doleman to be quiet in future! The second was from the admin Sqn Ldr running the court who politely asked us to stop shaking our heads and making other such gestures during the giving of evidence by the Prosecution witnesses. We’ve asked Turner to stop muttering bo**ocks under his breath. Suitably chastised we left for the pub. More tomorrow.
Meanwhile, keep watching your 6.
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Thanks for the posting above Mickydrip.
Spot & Sue should never be surprised at the support that they are receiving! Apart from the professional side of things - which all agree is a b****y disgrace - they are thoroughly nice people who many are proud to call 'friends'.
Interesting to know that Ted Tilley was in attendance - knew him at Hurn as a 'good ratter'! similarly Roger Dawson!
Keep it up Spot - we're all with you mate.
P.S. I can just imagine the picture of AT and his comments - if only Renrut was there to take his likeness!!!!
Spot & Sue should never be surprised at the support that they are receiving! Apart from the professional side of things - which all agree is a b****y disgrace - they are thoroughly nice people who many are proud to call 'friends'.
Interesting to know that Ted Tilley was in attendance - knew him at Hurn as a 'good ratter'! similarly Roger Dawson!
Keep it up Spot - we're all with you mate.
P.S. I can just imagine the picture of AT and his comments - if only Renrut was there to take his likeness!!!!
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F15 Court Martial
Spot
We worked together at ERD, I was a civil ATCO. You have my absolute support. I've read all the contributions and don't understand why you are in your present predicament. The rules are clear, you are guilty of nothing.
Well done to those who are providing practical help, if there is anything I can do they need only ask.
Good luck, keep your spirits up. You represent all of us, past and present.
We worked together at ERD, I was a civil ATCO. You have my absolute support. I've read all the contributions and don't understand why you are in your present predicament. The rules are clear, you are guilty of nothing.
Well done to those who are providing practical help, if there is anything I can do they need only ask.
Good luck, keep your spirits up. You represent all of us, past and present.
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Tasker, Doleman and Turner - no wonder the Landlady is getting mithered. I don't suppose a few drams would have anything to do with it!
Must be a great comfort to Spot to have the 3 Musgetbeers up there!
Keep up the good work Tommy T - excellent reporting. Be interesting to see who the "big batter" you mentioned turns out to be? Seems the case revolves on 2 main issues: the pilot's responsibilities and actions, and the reason for Spot's behaviour at the time. So far things sound like they're lining up well given the acknowledgement that its the crew's responsibility for terrain clearance, and they may well have been VMC below. Also, is it at all reasonable that Spot was working that day - especially as it seems no-one was monitoring his actions - Supervision???
All our best Spot, there but for the grace of God could be anyone of us.
Must be a great comfort to Spot to have the 3 Musgetbeers up there!Keep up the good work Tommy T - excellent reporting. Be interesting to see who the "big batter" you mentioned turns out to be? Seems the case revolves on 2 main issues: the pilot's responsibilities and actions, and the reason for Spot's behaviour at the time. So far things sound like they're lining up well given the acknowledgement that its the crew's responsibility for terrain clearance, and they may well have been VMC below. Also, is it at all reasonable that Spot was working that day - especially as it seems no-one was monitoring his actions - Supervision???
All our best Spot, there but for the grace of God could be anyone of us.
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Thanks for the update Mickeydrip, and the FC explanation.
The updates you provide are very much appreciated.
Spot - keep your spirits up pal.
Once the RAF has been put in it's box - you can happily and deservedly look forward to never having to buy a drink again !
And the After-Dinner speeches you'll be paid a fortune for ( Clinton got £100k per speech I believe
... the world will be your oyster. 
Good luck once again, everyone is routeing for you here at easyJet as well.
The updates you provide are very much appreciated.
Spot - keep your spirits up pal.
Once the RAF has been put in it's box - you can happily and deservedly look forward to never having to buy a drink again !
And the After-Dinner speeches you'll be paid a fortune for ( Clinton got £100k per speech I believe
... the world will be your oyster. Good luck once again, everyone is routeing for you here at easyJet as well.
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This is the first time I've read about this on PPruNe after Spot pointed me here - don't know why I didn't think to look earlier. I am pleased that so many people share my sense of dismay at the way this tragedy is being played out. Spot did me the honour of being my best man at my wedding 10 years ago and I had the privilege of sharing 2 and a half tours with him. I know him to be a capable and responsible controller as well as a solid family man and a b****y good mate.
Whatever the results of this court, those of you who are still controlling should take time to reflect on your own positions. I know that I got into many hairy situations which, thankfully, worked out alright in the end. Indeed, one trait of military ATC, and I'm sure this applies to our civil colleagues too, is a great desire to be flexible and help aircrew more than the strict letter of the law demands of us. This apparent 'blame culture' threatens that as it become more important for a controller to 'check six' before taking that extra step.
I was shocked to read that the RAF may be adding riders to the terms of a RIS (I don't have any verification of this, though. Perhaps someone on the inside can comment), without looking at civil application of the same service. Surely this can only confuse matters since aircrew receive RIS and RAS from mil and civ ATCOs alike?
What happened to Spot that day could happen to any controller, and their actions will then be subjected to critical analysis. Which of us can say that our daily controlling practices would *always* stand up to such critical analysis as we sort multiple inputs, dodgy technology, indifferent management and personal distractions? I couldn't. But prison..?
Whatever the verdict, the RAF will come out of this covered in shame. I can honestly say now that I am immensely pleased I took my option to leave nearly 3 years ago. That upsets me because I enjoyed the RAF life and still believe in what it stands for.
I hope they're as proud of themselves as I am of you lot who are supporting Spot so well. I know it means a lot to him.
Whatever the results of this court, those of you who are still controlling should take time to reflect on your own positions. I know that I got into many hairy situations which, thankfully, worked out alright in the end. Indeed, one trait of military ATC, and I'm sure this applies to our civil colleagues too, is a great desire to be flexible and help aircrew more than the strict letter of the law demands of us. This apparent 'blame culture' threatens that as it become more important for a controller to 'check six' before taking that extra step.
I was shocked to read that the RAF may be adding riders to the terms of a RIS (I don't have any verification of this, though. Perhaps someone on the inside can comment), without looking at civil application of the same service. Surely this can only confuse matters since aircrew receive RIS and RAS from mil and civ ATCOs alike?
What happened to Spot that day could happen to any controller, and their actions will then be subjected to critical analysis. Which of us can say that our daily controlling practices would *always* stand up to such critical analysis as we sort multiple inputs, dodgy technology, indifferent management and personal distractions? I couldn't. But prison..?
Whatever the verdict, the RAF will come out of this covered in shame. I can honestly say now that I am immensely pleased I took my option to leave nearly 3 years ago. That upsets me because I enjoyed the RAF life and still believe in what it stands for.
I hope they're as proud of themselves as I am of you lot who are supporting Spot so well. I know it means a lot to him.
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Just as an aside to the RIS debate ... when I was in the RAF on dets to FI, at all radar sites, the assistants ( TG12 not TG9 ) would often give RIS to the helos and occasionally fixed-wing a/c transitting VFR. They would always add phrases such as 'info only' and 'pilot's discretion' etc etc.
Whilst the airspace is obviously in no way comparable to UK, what's the legality of that now bearing in mind TG12 ( ASOp ) have no ticket for 'controlling' ?
For clarity and for readers unfamiliar with the FI ATC environment -it's a one-off and the situation would NEVER happen here !
There are only 2 or 3 controllers at each radar site, and controller positions are only manned during active sorties or QRA.
Low level transits or helo traffic was VFR normally. If an a/c requested active control, a 'qualified' controller was always on-call and at the console within minutes.
Whilst the airspace is obviously in no way comparable to UK, what's the legality of that now bearing in mind TG12 ( ASOp ) have no ticket for 'controlling' ?
For clarity and for readers unfamiliar with the FI ATC environment -it's a one-off and the situation would NEVER happen here !
There are only 2 or 3 controllers at each radar site, and controller positions are only manned during active sorties or QRA.
Low level transits or helo traffic was VFR normally. If an a/c requested active control, a 'qualified' controller was always on-call and at the console within minutes.