F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
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take3 call5
did the chinook hit the high ground, that has a very obscured spot height marked on the map, just south of the mac vor?(if its still there have a look on the map behind the sups desk at scatcc)
reason I ask is one night shift about ten years ago a sar seaking would have flown into it on a job. The crew were unfamiliar with the area and thought that as mac was flat so was the land to the south of mac, the high ground was in cloud and until i said something they were just going to track the vor to their search area, in the end they navigated around the coast.
reason I ask is one night shift about ten years ago a sar seaking would have flown into it on a job. The crew were unfamiliar with the area and thought that as mac was flat so was the land to the south of mac, the high ground was in cloud and until i said something they were just going to track the vor to their search area, in the end they navigated around the coast.
Beady Eye
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The Chinook story has its very own thread in the Military Aircrew Forum. Most posts are very Pro the pilots, so I'd be cautious about putting in your post ZKDLI.
My personal view is that they were flying VFR but hit high ground in IMC.
Over & out from me on this one.
My personal view is that they were flying VFR but hit high ground in IMC.
Over & out from me on this one.
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Couple of things to clear up here.
The Court Martial is provisionally set for the 16th September 2002 (not the 26th)but there are issues to be resolved for the defence team before a concrete date can be posted.
The Court Martial may be held at RN Faslane near Helensburgh or possibly in Helesburgh itself . Look north of Glasgow and west of Loch Lomond.
'Whipping Boy's SATCO' is not the controller's SATCO.
The controller's SATCO (not in post at time of incident) has been very helpful and supportive.
Hope to keep you posted as more information is made available.
The Court Martial is provisionally set for the 16th September 2002 (not the 26th)but there are issues to be resolved for the defence team before a concrete date can be posted.
The Court Martial may be held at RN Faslane near Helensburgh or possibly in Helesburgh itself . Look north of Glasgow and west of Loch Lomond.
'Whipping Boy's SATCO' is not the controller's SATCO.
The controller's SATCO (not in post at time of incident) has been very helpful and supportive.
Hope to keep you posted as more information is made available.
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DD, thanks for clarifying that, I never implied I was.The term of endearment "WBS" has been kicking around PPrune since May 2001. It is purely unfortunate that my 'handle' has been mis-interpreted.
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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make Canberra.
Are you suggesting that the accused has chosen to stand trial by Court Martial? The truth of the matter is that he was not even afforded the opportunity to attend and address a Board of Enquiry, as it was suspended before completion, (see earlier comment). The decision to go to Court Martial has been taken by the Service and there's the rub. No right thinking individual can see what the RAF is out to achieve by this action, apart from an apparent vindictive need to make someone in blue pay for the tragedy. (Just remind me again about the rules for RIS?)
Speaking as I do on a regular basis to RAF controllers, I am very aware that many are watching this whole sorry saga with interest and horror; there but for the grace of God... etc. I doubt there'll be a mass exodus from the Air Traffic Control Branch but I can't see this unhappy event adding much to the morale of the military atco's. See you in September.
Are you suggesting that the accused has chosen to stand trial by Court Martial? The truth of the matter is that he was not even afforded the opportunity to attend and address a Board of Enquiry, as it was suspended before completion, (see earlier comment). The decision to go to Court Martial has been taken by the Service and there's the rub. No right thinking individual can see what the RAF is out to achieve by this action, apart from an apparent vindictive need to make someone in blue pay for the tragedy. (Just remind me again about the rules for RIS?)
Speaking as I do on a regular basis to RAF controllers, I am very aware that many are watching this whole sorry saga with interest and horror; there but for the grace of God... etc. I doubt there'll be a mass exodus from the Air Traffic Control Branch but I can't see this unhappy event adding much to the morale of the military atco's. See you in September.
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Thanks to Mickydrip - you pre-empted my response to Canberra whom I think has totally lost the plot and seems to be a mine of misinformation.
Please lets not cloud the issue - this controller has suffered enough and needs real support.
Please lets not cloud the issue - this controller has suffered enough and needs real support.
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F15 Saga
Dead right Mickydrip!
Someone "out there" posted a private message to me last week which, for some reason, I am unable to access; this in spite of attempting to get help from pprune/admin. PLEASE TRY AGAIN. You will understand my reticence at not posting my e-mail etc.
My sincere apologies if I mislead anyone about the date of the CM - it is the 16th of next month but even that date is tentative.
See you at the CM.
Someone "out there" posted a private message to me last week which, for some reason, I am unable to access; this in spite of attempting to get help from pprune/admin. PLEASE TRY AGAIN. You will understand my reticence at not posting my e-mail etc.
My sincere apologies if I mislead anyone about the date of the CM - it is the 16th of next month but even that date is tentative.
See you at the CM.
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right
right just to clear a few things up. i was on duty in the ops room at leuchars when the events happened. my point about all members of the services having the right to elect trial by courts martial was to draw non service personnel to that fact. i dont know whether spot choose that option. but if i had been in his position thats what i would have done.
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Latest news on Court Martial.
Date now provisionally set for Monday 28th October at Faslane Naval Base near Helensburg, Scotland. The expectation is that the CM could last 5 days.
The defence are still looking for further disclosure of evidence.
If 28th October proves to be 'no go', we believe the whole thing may slip into 2003.
Date now provisionally set for Monday 28th October at Faslane Naval Base near Helensburg, Scotland. The expectation is that the CM could last 5 days.
The defence are still looking for further disclosure of evidence.
If 28th October proves to be 'no go', we believe the whole thing may slip into 2003.
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Trick, sorry to be a pain but, your message has confused me. Are you saying that the CM is delayed whilst the defence argues for further disclosure? If not, what is the reason?
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Mildrewv, as far as i am aware, since the withdrawal of crown immunity, the individual members of HMF are responsible for their actions and hence, any claims for damages will be aimed at the individual and not MOD. IMHO i think that this was one of the factors driving the Mull of Kintyre BOI and possibly this one.
As has been said, the crews were under RIS and therefore responsible for their own terrain seperation irrespective of controller instructions/advice. Good luck Spot. Regardless of the outcome of the CM, i'm sure it cannot be any worse than the hell that i suspect you are going through.
As has been said, the crews were under RIS and therefore responsible for their own terrain seperation irrespective of controller instructions/advice. Good luck Spot. Regardless of the outcome of the CM, i'm sure it cannot be any worse than the hell that i suspect you are going through.
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The bypassing of Board of Inquiry in this case seems very odd indeed, particularly, as someone has already stated, one was convened and then suspended – why? I thought that the direct route to Court Martial was normally only used in more cut and dried cases where criminal acts were involved. I assume this not to be the case here. For aircraft accidents, particularly those involving fatalities, a Board of Inquiry would normally be convened and, having heard all evidence, may, or may not, have concluded that charges needed to be laid.
It appears from earlier statements that the Court Martial is now delayed awaiting disclosure of evidence. Pardon? This man has been charged without a Board of Inquiry and all the evidence has not been made available??? One would assume that it isn’t the RAF withholding evidence - that would be big trouble. Are they waiting for the USAF to disclose evidence? This could be a long wait, as I don’t think they are obliged to do so. Incidentally, did the USAF hold a Board of Inquiry in which the RAF participated or was this a closed shop? Whatever way you look at it, it seems that the cart is being put before the horse.
As has recently been demonstrated, very senior officers have the ability to dictate or interfere with the judicial process within service law. My cynical view is that this is precisely what has happened in this case. We come back to the ‘blame culture’ and is this just an act of appeasement to the USAF by the RAF hierarchy, using this controller as the sacrificial lamb?
Unfortunately, as a result of this course of action, a man’s career, livelihood and freedom are now on the line and, to defend himself, his employer has forced him into a very expensive process – this may not have been necessary had a Board of Inquiry been held. So, even if the charge(s) are not proven, this man , or his Guild, will have to pick up the tab. Hardly seems fair does it? Perhaps some Ministerial answers should be sought. I would have thought that the last thing the Minister would want is yet another high profile case that might, once again, question the actions and decision making of his RAF hierarchy.
In the meantime, this gentleman and his family must have been under a lot of stress for a very long period of time ( accident March 2001 ? ). How long are the RAF prepared to continue this torture if evidence is not forthcoming ? Does ‘duty of care’ enter the equation ?
The very best of luck to you – I hope common sense and justice prevails !
It appears from earlier statements that the Court Martial is now delayed awaiting disclosure of evidence. Pardon? This man has been charged without a Board of Inquiry and all the evidence has not been made available??? One would assume that it isn’t the RAF withholding evidence - that would be big trouble. Are they waiting for the USAF to disclose evidence? This could be a long wait, as I don’t think they are obliged to do so. Incidentally, did the USAF hold a Board of Inquiry in which the RAF participated or was this a closed shop? Whatever way you look at it, it seems that the cart is being put before the horse.
As has recently been demonstrated, very senior officers have the ability to dictate or interfere with the judicial process within service law. My cynical view is that this is precisely what has happened in this case. We come back to the ‘blame culture’ and is this just an act of appeasement to the USAF by the RAF hierarchy, using this controller as the sacrificial lamb?
Unfortunately, as a result of this course of action, a man’s career, livelihood and freedom are now on the line and, to defend himself, his employer has forced him into a very expensive process – this may not have been necessary had a Board of Inquiry been held. So, even if the charge(s) are not proven, this man , or his Guild, will have to pick up the tab. Hardly seems fair does it? Perhaps some Ministerial answers should be sought. I would have thought that the last thing the Minister would want is yet another high profile case that might, once again, question the actions and decision making of his RAF hierarchy.
In the meantime, this gentleman and his family must have been under a lot of stress for a very long period of time ( accident March 2001 ? ). How long are the RAF prepared to continue this torture if evidence is not forthcoming ? Does ‘duty of care’ enter the equation ?
The very best of luck to you – I hope common sense and justice prevails !
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F15 CM
I believe that Barnwood has hit the nail on the head with use of the term "blame culture". I have reason to believe that the RAF DLS - or whatever their official title is these days - have taken the decision to prosecute as that is "what the public would want".
The decision to prosecute would seem to be theirs alone and I can well understand the consternation it has produced within the branch. It certainly won't help to retain the RAF ATC Branch as a flexible "can do" organisation. Sad days. Good luck, Spot.
The decision to prosecute would seem to be theirs alone and I can well understand the consternation it has produced within the branch. It certainly won't help to retain the RAF ATC Branch as a flexible "can do" organisation. Sad days. Good luck, Spot.
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Can't believe this is dragging on so long. Defence Legal Services probably clutching at straws again. Makes me wonder why we still do the job when it appears we could be hung out to dry without any (clear) support from the more senior officers in Military ATC. The whole thing is a farce and a complete waste of time and money. Good luck Spot, I am sure the whole branch is behind you and wishes you well.
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My sincere best wishes to the gentleman involved.
As a non forces type, it never ceases to amaze me at the vigour the any of the armed forces will put behind making themselves look complete asses when undertaking a mjor investigation of any kind.
Assuming there is a god, and the incumbant is exonerated, what would his future in the RAF be? (assuming that he wants one).
Will he be allowed to carry on in his previous role at his base, or will he be moved sideways to a posting that will be so unacceptable it causes him to seek employment with a more humane employer?
As a non forces type, it never ceases to amaze me at the vigour the any of the armed forces will put behind making themselves look complete asses when undertaking a mjor investigation of any kind.
Assuming there is a god, and the incumbant is exonerated, what would his future in the RAF be? (assuming that he wants one).
Will he be allowed to carry on in his previous role at his base, or will he be moved sideways to a posting that will be so unacceptable it causes him to seek employment with a more humane employer?