Monday Pay Talks Deadline.......
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South of England
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must confess that I have not read all 120 or so posts on this topic so I apologise if any of these points have been made or answered before:
1. I really can't see a problem with 2 year deals. We're over half way through the year already and if we accept the offer it will probably be the end of september before we get the money. That's nine months after the start of the negotiations. Do we really want to go through all this palaver again three months after that.
2. With regard to the pay rise, I know it's being paid in stages but at the end of it all the fact remains that in Jan 2004 your pay will be 10% higher than it was in Jan 2002. That's not particually confusing or complicated and after all, we are supposed to be reasonably intelligent people. These are salary scale increases not bonuses or lump sums so we will continue to see the benfits of that year on year. I've got plenty of friends outside air traffic who would be ecstatic at such a rise, so lets take a bit of a reality check here.
3. Overtime.
I have seen a lot written here about how tired people feel at the end of a shift or cycle. Well here's a revelation for you: So does nearly everyone else who works for a living! Are you seriously trying to suggest you deserve special recognition for that. If you feel too tired to do overtime:- DON'T DO IT! But there are others out there who feel they should have the opportunity to do some if they want to. Let's look at this for a minute. If you sign up to do 13 days, that amounts to less than one a month, so you'll be working on average about 19 days a month. That's still at least one less per month than the vast majority of the working population. Plus we also get more holiday than most as well.
There's been lots said about overtime just masking the real staffing crisis; it's getting management out of a hole; there should have been better planning yeras ago; etc, etc ad nauseum. All of this is correct, but I don't see the complainers offering any solutions. The management cannot just magic validations out of thin air and ultimately we're the ones who have been chopping all the trainees. I think we all know at least one ab initio who we feel was harshly treated and could have been given more of a chance. You can't just whinge about poor staffing and then reject the only possible answer that there is at the moment.
This is a pretty good deal that has been achieved with no great pain to ourselves, and I honestly believe that voting no on this would be a mistake. It would almost certainly lead to industrial action and while we might/probably would gain a bit more, those gains would not be in proportion to the struggle required to achieve them.
CYSW...
1. I really can't see a problem with 2 year deals. We're over half way through the year already and if we accept the offer it will probably be the end of september before we get the money. That's nine months after the start of the negotiations. Do we really want to go through all this palaver again three months after that.
2. With regard to the pay rise, I know it's being paid in stages but at the end of it all the fact remains that in Jan 2004 your pay will be 10% higher than it was in Jan 2002. That's not particually confusing or complicated and after all, we are supposed to be reasonably intelligent people. These are salary scale increases not bonuses or lump sums so we will continue to see the benfits of that year on year. I've got plenty of friends outside air traffic who would be ecstatic at such a rise, so lets take a bit of a reality check here.
3. Overtime.
I have seen a lot written here about how tired people feel at the end of a shift or cycle. Well here's a revelation for you: So does nearly everyone else who works for a living! Are you seriously trying to suggest you deserve special recognition for that. If you feel too tired to do overtime:- DON'T DO IT! But there are others out there who feel they should have the opportunity to do some if they want to. Let's look at this for a minute. If you sign up to do 13 days, that amounts to less than one a month, so you'll be working on average about 19 days a month. That's still at least one less per month than the vast majority of the working population. Plus we also get more holiday than most as well.
There's been lots said about overtime just masking the real staffing crisis; it's getting management out of a hole; there should have been better planning yeras ago; etc, etc ad nauseum. All of this is correct, but I don't see the complainers offering any solutions. The management cannot just magic validations out of thin air and ultimately we're the ones who have been chopping all the trainees. I think we all know at least one ab initio who we feel was harshly treated and could have been given more of a chance. You can't just whinge about poor staffing and then reject the only possible answer that there is at the moment.
This is a pretty good deal that has been achieved with no great pain to ourselves, and I honestly believe that voting no on this would be a mistake. It would almost certainly lead to industrial action and while we might/probably would gain a bit more, those gains would not be in proportion to the struggle required to achieve them.
CYSW...
Last edited by Check your speed with....; 23rd Jul 2002 at 20:04.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Vatican City
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
250 kts, some wise words you have spoken.
Taking the LTCC crisis out of the equation, where should my focus lie? I say this not wanting to anger Swanwick folk.
If you are correct and the entire BEC did not vote, what enables a 'partial' vote? I have never been one for decorum and formalities, but Prospect ATCO's branch has its own rules. So have these been broken in this case?
Again we go back to information flow, a joint statement is published, we as members expect the hierarchy of our union to have rubber stamped it. 250 kts is of the opinion that correct union protocol has been by passed maybe?
I cannot condone irregularities like this unless the huge benefits on offer to Prospect ATCO's branch are too good to be wasted?
Taking the LTCC crisis out of the equation, where should my focus lie? I say this not wanting to anger Swanwick folk.
If you are correct and the entire BEC did not vote, what enables a 'partial' vote? I have never been one for decorum and formalities, but Prospect ATCO's branch has its own rules. So have these been broken in this case?
Again we go back to information flow, a joint statement is published, we as members expect the hierarchy of our union to have rubber stamped it. 250 kts is of the opinion that correct union protocol has been by passed maybe?
I cannot condone irregularities like this unless the huge benefits on offer to Prospect ATCO's branch are too good to be wasted?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Check... -
"That's still at least one less per month than the vast majority of the working population. Plus we also get more holiday than most as well".
You forgot to mention the fact that:
a) if we **** up, we kill hundreds
b) we take years to train to a standard that not all who start down that road can achieve
c) we work in a highly stressed environment (which over time we get used to and hence tend to forget until the next time we end up 'finger-nailing' it)
d) thanks to a combination of aforementioned stress coupled with shift work it is a medical FACT that we won't enjoy as much of our retirment years as the "vast majority of the working population"!
Get real!!!!
If you want to compare like with like then spell it out instead of meaningless comparisons. Next thing you'll be saying that the job is so satisfying we should be doing it for free!!!
If your job is that p*** easy you can do my next shift and I'll happilly pay you the ****ing overtime myself!!!!
Oh, and by the way, the "vast majority of the working population" couldn't give a **** what I do or what I get paid so long as they're not hanging around airports for hours and they get to where they want in one piece. I, in return, don't give a *** what they get paid for what they do! As the person best placed to know, I recon I know my own worth!
"That's still at least one less per month than the vast majority of the working population. Plus we also get more holiday than most as well".
You forgot to mention the fact that:
a) if we **** up, we kill hundreds
b) we take years to train to a standard that not all who start down that road can achieve
c) we work in a highly stressed environment (which over time we get used to and hence tend to forget until the next time we end up 'finger-nailing' it)
d) thanks to a combination of aforementioned stress coupled with shift work it is a medical FACT that we won't enjoy as much of our retirment years as the "vast majority of the working population"!
Get real!!!!
If you want to compare like with like then spell it out instead of meaningless comparisons. Next thing you'll be saying that the job is so satisfying we should be doing it for free!!!
If your job is that p*** easy you can do my next shift and I'll happilly pay you the ****ing overtime myself!!!!
Oh, and by the way, the "vast majority of the working population" couldn't give a **** what I do or what I get paid so long as they're not hanging around airports for hours and they get to where they want in one piece. I, in return, don't give a *** what they get paid for what they do! As the person best placed to know, I recon I know my own worth!
Last edited by tug3; 23rd Jul 2002 at 21:36.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello, is anyone listening?
WAKE UP!!!! This offer is NOT 10%. It is not even 9.7%. I have just calculated exactly how these staggered increases, only 2 of which apply to UHP & other allowances will alter my gross pay over the 2 year period.
(Ignoring incremental progression, which has nothing whatsoever to do with these negotiations)
Dec 2001
Base Salary = 31021 UHP = 4272 Total = 35293
Jan 2002
Base Salary +2.2% = 31703 UHP +2.2% = 4365 Total = 36068
Oct 2002
Base Salary +2% = 32337 UHP + ZERO = 4365 Total = 36702
Jan 2003
Base Salary +3.7% = 33533 UHP +34.7% = 4526 Total = 38059
Dec 2003
Base Salary +1.8% = 34136 UHP + ZERO = 4526 Total = 38662
38662 - 35293 = 3369
(3369/35293) * 100 = 9.5%
Yes that's right 9.5 % higher than Dec 2001.
Sorry for coming on all Carol Vorderman, but I'm fed up of people trying to sell this as a 10% deal. If your pay is made up of more allowances (London Weighting, OJTI etc) your actual percentage rise will be even smaller.
There's a lot of psycology at work here. 10% is psycologically a very significant figure. Management must be delighted at the union & everyone else who are trying to sell this as 10%, but before you vote just spend a few minutes working it out like I have just done. Don't let yourself be conned.
(Ignoring incremental progression, which has nothing whatsoever to do with these negotiations)
Dec 2001
Base Salary = 31021 UHP = 4272 Total = 35293
Jan 2002
Base Salary +2.2% = 31703 UHP +2.2% = 4365 Total = 36068
Oct 2002
Base Salary +2% = 32337 UHP + ZERO = 4365 Total = 36702
Jan 2003
Base Salary +3.7% = 33533 UHP +34.7% = 4526 Total = 38059
Dec 2003
Base Salary +1.8% = 34136 UHP + ZERO = 4526 Total = 38662
38662 - 35293 = 3369
(3369/35293) * 100 = 9.5%
Yes that's right 9.5 % higher than Dec 2001.
Sorry for coming on all Carol Vorderman, but I'm fed up of people trying to sell this as a 10% deal. If your pay is made up of more allowances (London Weighting, OJTI etc) your actual percentage rise will be even smaller.
There's a lot of psycology at work here. 10% is psycologically a very significant figure. Management must be delighted at the union & everyone else who are trying to sell this as 10%, but before you vote just spend a few minutes working it out like I have just done. Don't let yourself be conned.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had the benefit of a Prospect briefing recently, and their case for acceptance was fairly good.
However, it would appear that the reason we're in the position of the BEC recommending an offer that several (myself included) do not think a good one, seems to be a certain amount of apathy by the membership ourselves. How many of us pressed for local unit meetings beforehand, so the BEC knew what we wanted. I didn't! Nor did many of you!
People mention strings attached. The only compulsory string I see is using one non-ops day for operational reasons. All other strings are voluntary. Those at LACC and LTCC that are going to be asked to sell leave and TOIL, and do overtime, my advice is to refuse. If you don't want to make voluntary attendances, then don't. I personally have nothing against you selling leave and TOIL if that's what you as individuals want. I will be disappointed if you sign up for additional attendances.
If we do accept, the bottom line is that basic pay will be 10% higher then it is now. UHP and London weighting will not be.
We will be able to negotiate WPP etc, which could be beneficial if we make the effort to tell Prospect what we want, with respet to issues of UHP and weighting for those living in more expensive areas.
If we reject it, we don't know what we'll get.
The short term part of me says Strike, the long term part says can we do even better when we start negotiating for Jan 2004?
After all, management can't bring the Dec 2003 1.8% in to 2004 calculations if we don't let them. Also, by then traffic will have picked up sufficiently for them to be unable to justify a healthy rise. My concern with the long term view is how many of us union members are going to othered enough to arrange and attend meetings to thrash out what we want before our negotiating team is sent in to the lions den?
In short, I'm still undecided!
However, it would appear that the reason we're in the position of the BEC recommending an offer that several (myself included) do not think a good one, seems to be a certain amount of apathy by the membership ourselves. How many of us pressed for local unit meetings beforehand, so the BEC knew what we wanted. I didn't! Nor did many of you!
People mention strings attached. The only compulsory string I see is using one non-ops day for operational reasons. All other strings are voluntary. Those at LACC and LTCC that are going to be asked to sell leave and TOIL, and do overtime, my advice is to refuse. If you don't want to make voluntary attendances, then don't. I personally have nothing against you selling leave and TOIL if that's what you as individuals want. I will be disappointed if you sign up for additional attendances.
If we do accept, the bottom line is that basic pay will be 10% higher then it is now. UHP and London weighting will not be.
We will be able to negotiate WPP etc, which could be beneficial if we make the effort to tell Prospect what we want, with respet to issues of UHP and weighting for those living in more expensive areas.
If we reject it, we don't know what we'll get.
The short term part of me says Strike, the long term part says can we do even better when we start negotiating for Jan 2004?
After all, management can't bring the Dec 2003 1.8% in to 2004 calculations if we don't let them. Also, by then traffic will have picked up sufficiently for them to be unable to justify a healthy rise. My concern with the long term view is how many of us union members are going to othered enough to arrange and attend meetings to thrash out what we want before our negotiating team is sent in to the lions den?
In short, I'm still undecided!
AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: England
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TUG3
Quote:
"a) if we **** up, we kill hundreds
b) we take years to train to a standard that not all who start down that road can achieve
c) we work in a highly stressed environment (which over time we get used to and hence tend to forget until the next time we end up 'finger-nailing' it)
d) thanks to a combination of aforementioned stress coupled with shift work it is a medical FACT that we won't enjoy as much of our retirment years as the "vast majority of the working population"! "
Just a thought, while I basically agree with your sentiments, there are also others, e.g. doctors whose responsibilities are arguably just as great and work at least twice the hours of an ATCO, and more hours without rest at a time too. I know someone else's pay and conditions don't justify undervaluing others but ATCO pay and hours aint that bad!
As I said, just a thought - don't over estimate your importance - sure it's important BUT not unique.
Quote:
"a) if we **** up, we kill hundreds
b) we take years to train to a standard that not all who start down that road can achieve
c) we work in a highly stressed environment (which over time we get used to and hence tend to forget until the next time we end up 'finger-nailing' it)
d) thanks to a combination of aforementioned stress coupled with shift work it is a medical FACT that we won't enjoy as much of our retirment years as the "vast majority of the working population"! "
Just a thought, while I basically agree with your sentiments, there are also others, e.g. doctors whose responsibilities are arguably just as great and work at least twice the hours of an ATCO, and more hours without rest at a time too. I know someone else's pay and conditions don't justify undervaluing others but ATCO pay and hours aint that bad!
As I said, just a thought - don't over estimate your importance - sure it's important BUT not unique.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: hants
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sector8dear couldn't agree more. Too many people within our profession overestimate their own importance. It is a very responsible job but so is driving a coach full of schoolchildren.
A question for more senior area controllers. Do you feel that the job has actually got easier over the last ten years as the airspace has been re-sectorised. As someone who validated on north bank some time ago I certainly feel this is the case.
A question for more senior area controllers. Do you feel that the job has actually got easier over the last ten years as the airspace has been re-sectorised. As someone who validated on north bank some time ago I certainly feel this is the case.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sector 8 Dear -
You are not an ATCO and your views re. what we do and how much we get paid are well documented in this thread and others. I repeat, "as the person best placed to know, I recon I know my own worth!", as, presumably, you do yours.
Bwatchbabe -
As someone others would accuse of talking the job up, I recon you'd fall into the category of those seeking to dumb it down:
"It is a very responsible job but so is driving a coach full of schoolchildren". No **** Sherlock! Stressful - undoubtedly, responsible - of course, but before I go on to compare HGV/PSV vs Rating/Validations, etc. etc. etc., do me one favour and I'll spare you the lecture...
If possible, before your next shift, take a trip to your nearest major airport and spend a couple of hours in the check-in area having a good, long look at the faces of the 100s if not 1000s of people, including children, passing through on their way to the departure lounges. Then consider if you will the fact that ALL their lives will depend upon the well chosen words which will be falling from your lips just a few hours later.
Now, having reminded yourself of your raison d'etre as an ATCO, tell me what you think you're worth AND how important your job is!
You are not an ATCO and your views re. what we do and how much we get paid are well documented in this thread and others. I repeat, "as the person best placed to know, I recon I know my own worth!", as, presumably, you do yours.
Bwatchbabe -
As someone others would accuse of talking the job up, I recon you'd fall into the category of those seeking to dumb it down:
"It is a very responsible job but so is driving a coach full of schoolchildren". No **** Sherlock! Stressful - undoubtedly, responsible - of course, but before I go on to compare HGV/PSV vs Rating/Validations, etc. etc. etc., do me one favour and I'll spare you the lecture...
If possible, before your next shift, take a trip to your nearest major airport and spend a couple of hours in the check-in area having a good, long look at the faces of the 100s if not 1000s of people, including children, passing through on their way to the departure lounges. Then consider if you will the fact that ALL their lives will depend upon the well chosen words which will be falling from your lips just a few hours later.
Now, having reminded yourself of your raison d'etre as an ATCO, tell me what you think you're worth AND how important your job is!
Last edited by tug3; 24th Jul 2002 at 08:09.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: hants
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tug3 touched a nerve there did I? With such flowery prose and dramatic content perhaps you would be more suited to life as an author or even a ballet dancer. As for my raison d'etre, like many people I am proud of the job I do but not to the extent that I believe I am some kind of superbeing, my raison d'etre is my own children and my life outside of the job.
Without being too patronising I suspect you are fairly junior. As you gain experience you may learn to be a little more humble.
As for pay, I feel that although,obviously I would like a larger pay rise, the union negotiators have done the best deal possible without risking the possibility of a workforce- splitting strike. I personally would have gone on strike if the majority had voted that way but be assured we would not have had enough backing from colleagues to carry the fight.
Without being too patronising I suspect you are fairly junior. As you gain experience you may learn to be a little more humble.
As for pay, I feel that although,obviously I would like a larger pay rise, the union negotiators have done the best deal possible without risking the possibility of a workforce- splitting strike. I personally would have gone on strike if the majority had voted that way but be assured we would not have had enough backing from colleagues to carry the fight.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Here to Eternity
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tug... come on... Everyone agrees that the job of an ATCO is a difficult and stressful one and deserves to be well paid. And it is.
When those in the chair like yourself come out and try to tell us you all wear your pants outside your tights and save us all from certain death on a daily basis - that's when you lose the credibility you have.
As already mentioned your average GP probably does double the number of hours working each week, while having to make life or death decisions as a matter of course. They also have to look each and every one of these people in the eye when they make the decisions. They spend longer training than an ATCO in a more highly stressed environment... and they end up owing a fortune in student loans because... gasp... most students don't get paid circa £18K plus expenses to study!!!
As you say "as the person best placed to know, I recon I know my own worth!" Yes... but you're also the best placed person to have your head stuck up your own a*se!!
You do a very responsible and skilled job.. and get paid well over the national average to do so.
Perhaps a knighthood for every completed shift would be a fair reflection of your greatness...?
Oh... and there's a "k" in "reckon"
When those in the chair like yourself come out and try to tell us you all wear your pants outside your tights and save us all from certain death on a daily basis - that's when you lose the credibility you have.
As already mentioned your average GP probably does double the number of hours working each week, while having to make life or death decisions as a matter of course. They also have to look each and every one of these people in the eye when they make the decisions. They spend longer training than an ATCO in a more highly stressed environment... and they end up owing a fortune in student loans because... gasp... most students don't get paid circa £18K plus expenses to study!!!
As you say "as the person best placed to know, I recon I know my own worth!" Yes... but you're also the best placed person to have your head stuck up your own a*se!!
You do a very responsible and skilled job.. and get paid well over the national average to do so.
Perhaps a knighthood for every completed shift would be a fair reflection of your greatness...?
Oh... and there's a "k" in "reckon"
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Teddy's out the pram, I give up, but not for lack of stamina, just to spare others from the tedium of reading black being called white and vice versa.
Off to rant on another thread, another time...
NEXT!!!
Off to rant on another thread, another time...
NEXT!!!
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Jockland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Standard Speed - wind your neck in.
I've worked on busy sectors down south, so I know what you do and don't do down there.
You, on the other hand, seem to be fairly ignorant of what we do north of the border.
I suggest you take a liaison visit sometime.
Yours isn't the only busy unit in the country.
TC are already a couple of spine points higher than ScATCC, (and deservedly so).
Manchesters sectional claim is long overdue.
That still doesn't make it right, that work should be shipped north, so that ScATCC can do it for less money than it was being down for down south.
I've worked on busy sectors down south, so I know what you do and don't do down there.
You, on the other hand, seem to be fairly ignorant of what we do north of the border.
I suggest you take a liaison visit sometime.
Yours isn't the only busy unit in the country.
TC are already a couple of spine points higher than ScATCC, (and deservedly so).
Manchesters sectional claim is long overdue.
That still doesn't make it right, that work should be shipped north, so that ScATCC can do it for less money than it was being down for down south.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A small village just a wee way away
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pheasant Plucker
Go pluck a pheasant, or even better go pluck yourself!
My neck is not in need of retracting, thanks ever so!
I am not ignorant of what you do north of the border - in fact many of my friends work up there.
When were you last down south - valid, I mean?
I wonder if/when the "traffic complexity tool" comes in to rehash WPP and station grading? This, by using a tool that represents not only traffic levels, but also sector complexity, may well redress balances felt awry by all units.
I wonder whether the 2 points (or so) difference at the top of the scale down south compared to up north, is truly representative of the difference in complexity?
MACC will get regraded as soon as they get moved to LACC. Unless they go north to join forces in the NSC?!
Enjoy plucking.
Waitrose sells them ready plucked down here, don't you know!
Smile
Regards
SS.
Go pluck a pheasant, or even better go pluck yourself!
My neck is not in need of retracting, thanks ever so!
I am not ignorant of what you do north of the border - in fact many of my friends work up there.
When were you last down south - valid, I mean?
I wonder if/when the "traffic complexity tool" comes in to rehash WPP and station grading? This, by using a tool that represents not only traffic levels, but also sector complexity, may well redress balances felt awry by all units.
I wonder whether the 2 points (or so) difference at the top of the scale down south compared to up north, is truly representative of the difference in complexity?
MACC will get regraded as soon as they get moved to LACC. Unless they go north to join forces in the NSC?!
Enjoy plucking.
Waitrose sells them ready plucked down here, don't you know!
Smile
Regards
SS.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Any Bar
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those of you who already know you will vote No, good.
For those still undecided just think about what it is you do every time you plug in busy or not and think about how much you are valued by the management and government.
For those who will accept then you must have your reasons but dont sell yourself short you are worth a lot more.
Question:
Regardless of where you work the job responsibility is the same,however it is wrong that for example Manchester controllers are paid less (£5000) than those down south.
The fact is that they work more planes per controller and the south east sector is the busiest in Europe.
Also every year for the last 10 they have taken more and more airspce for the grand sum of £0.
Now that does not mean they are better than anyone else but the differential is unfair and needs to be addressed.
If anyone is going to question the above then justify your reasons and remember Scottish , Man and London all have to work together to keep the system going
For those still undecided just think about what it is you do every time you plug in busy or not and think about how much you are valued by the management and government.
For those who will accept then you must have your reasons but dont sell yourself short you are worth a lot more.
Question:
Regardless of where you work the job responsibility is the same,however it is wrong that for example Manchester controllers are paid less (£5000) than those down south.
The fact is that they work more planes per controller and the south east sector is the busiest in Europe.
Also every year for the last 10 they have taken more and more airspce for the grand sum of £0.
Now that does not mean they are better than anyone else but the differential is unfair and needs to be addressed.
If anyone is going to question the above then justify your reasons and remember Scottish , Man and London all have to work together to keep the system going
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: EU
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great! Now I can go to the boss and say that our colleagues in Manchester think we should all earn the same, wherever we work.
I take it we can count on your support, then, when we petition to get rid of ATCO 3 airfields and put us all on the same scale....??
Nope, thought not.
I take it we can count on your support, then, when we petition to get rid of ATCO 3 airfields and put us all on the same scale....??
Nope, thought not.
Last edited by 1261; 27th Jul 2002 at 22:21.
