Mid Air collision over S Germany
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sunny Warwickshire
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mid Air collision over S Germany
Reports of a mid air collision betwen a DHL B757F and a Bashkirian TU154 over Germany at FL350.
Buildings on the ground near lake constance are ablaze, 2 confirmed dead, one would assume that all on board both aircraft have perished.
Collision happend in Zurich upper Airspace at FL350.
How could this happen???????????
May God have mercy on the souls of those who have lost their lives
Buildings on the ground near lake constance are ablaze, 2 confirmed dead, one would assume that all on board both aircraft have perished.
Collision happend in Zurich upper Airspace at FL350.
How could this happen???????????
May God have mercy on the souls of those who have lost their lives
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May God also console the poor ATCO who watched it happen.
There was an incident at Heathrow a few years ago where traffic off LAM and BNN were on the usual headings, at the same level. The ATCO, well known on these forums, tried to descend one and got no answer. So he went to the other and got no answer. They got to 4 miles apart, slightly crossing tracks and dead ringers before the BNN traffic stumbled back onto the frequency. From the recording, I would say... another 30 seconds would have been too late. He thought he was going to watch a midair happen and it must have been a most awful few moments. Just watching the recording was hearthumping and I knew they missed!
This poor soul in Switzerland will always have to live with this, where ever the responsibility lies. God bless him.
Point 4
There was an incident at Heathrow a few years ago where traffic off LAM and BNN were on the usual headings, at the same level. The ATCO, well known on these forums, tried to descend one and got no answer. So he went to the other and got no answer. They got to 4 miles apart, slightly crossing tracks and dead ringers before the BNN traffic stumbled back onto the frequency. From the recording, I would say... another 30 seconds would have been too late. He thought he was going to watch a midair happen and it must have been a most awful few moments. Just watching the recording was hearthumping and I knew they missed!
This poor soul in Switzerland will always have to live with this, where ever the responsibility lies. God bless him.
Point 4
Last edited by 120.4; 2nd Jul 2002 at 10:21.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: East of the West Island
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup - saw film of it on the news tonight - my heart goes out to all the victims in the aircraft and on the ground - seems there were a lot of kids on the Tupolev whaich makes it even worse.
As for the poor sods in front of their radars, what can you say - they must be shattered, and I hope the Swiss or whoever have a strong and supportive union to help them through this.
What happened to TCAS - is it not mandatory in that airspace?
As for the poor sods in front of their radars, what can you say - they must be shattered, and I hope the Swiss or whoever have a strong and supportive union to help them through this.
What happened to TCAS - is it not mandatory in that airspace?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: London Control, UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: South East
Age: 56
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems from the reports that the Russian pilot didn't respond to ATC, and the DHL pilot descended in response to TCAS.
Was the Russian on the wrong frequency? Or was his avoidance system faulty? Or neither?
Who knows. The worst irony, as the bbc quoted, was that the children on the Russian flight had the flight specially chartered so that they would not miss any of their holiday. The parents believed their children were already enjoying themselves.
Let's hope they recover the black boxes in order to find out the true reason for this tragedy, to help avert another one.
Was the Russian on the wrong frequency? Or was his avoidance system faulty? Or neither?
Who knows. The worst irony, as the bbc quoted, was that the children on the Russian flight had the flight specially chartered so that they would not miss any of their holiday. The parents believed their children were already enjoying themselves.
Let's hope they recover the black boxes in order to find out the true reason for this tragedy, to help avert another one.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Frequency confusion
Interesting that much of the speculation so far has concentrated on the fact that the Tup154 may not have been listening, or may have been 'lost' on another frequency.
Both the BBC and Sky News have had experts along who state that this temporary communication failure is rare. In my experience (at whatever center) a/c getting the wrong frequencies, misdialling or otherwise being temporarily incommunicado is a daily occurrence.
Without really wishing to join in the speculation, I would like to ask whether these occurrences, and particularly this incident, would be possible if all a/c and all centers (other than just Maastricht) had a/g link?
All our thoughts are with the victims, their families and the controllers at their respective units. There but for the Grace of God......
Both the BBC and Sky News have had experts along who state that this temporary communication failure is rare. In my experience (at whatever center) a/c getting the wrong frequencies, misdialling or otherwise being temporarily incommunicado is a daily occurrence.
Without really wishing to join in the speculation, I would like to ask whether these occurrences, and particularly this incident, would be possible if all a/c and all centers (other than just Maastricht) had a/g link?
All our thoughts are with the victims, their families and the controllers at their respective units. There but for the Grace of God......
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South of the River
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have a look at the post by Volume on the reporting point forum (copied below). It implies that it was standard practice for the controller to instruct one of two a/c at the same level to start descent only 50 seconds before collision, and this is in fact what happened. By missing just one call, a disaster happened.
This seems very strange practice to me, and definately not SOP as stated in previous reports from the Swiss!
The report seems to be from the German Aviation Authority.
_______________________________________
02.07.2002 05:00
BFU Press release
Actual Aircraft Accident
On July 1st 2002, 23:35 MESZ (21:35 UTC), well above the Bodensee a midair collision happened with a B757-200 (DHL) and a TU154 (Bashkirian Airlines – Russian Ferderation). The RNAV-Route Salzburg-Traunstein-Kempten-Trasadingen was used by the TU154 while B757 flew along RNAV-Route ABESI-AKABI-TANGO, both aircraft approached each other at FL 360. The collision took place close to AKABI at FL 354. At the time of occurrence both aircraft were under control by Zürich ACC.
The accident is under investigation by the BFU.
An investigation team is out to arrive at the accident site and to meet the investigation team of the Police in Friedrichshafen.
Momentarily the follwing is known: B757-200 / TU154
Aircraft Operator: DHL / Bashkirian Airlines
People aboard): 2 / ca. 57 + 12
Departure Aerodrome: Bergamo / Moskau
Destination: Brüssel / Barcelona
Flightplan:
Mode of operation: Cargo / Charter PAX-Transport
People killed:
People hurt:
Aircraft damage: Both aircraft crashed
Third party damage: Buildings and environmental damage
Phase of flight): cruise
Type of accident: Mid Air Collision
As soon as new information is available, it will be published on the BFU-internet-homepage or released.
Ergänzung der BFU-Presseinformation von 05:00 Uhr
(Supplemental Information, 5am UTC)
Eine erste Auswertung des Sprechfunkverkehrs der Schweizer Flugsicherung mit den beiden Flugzeugen hat ergeben, dass die Besatzung der TU 154 ca. 50 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß die Anweisung bekam, von Flugfläche 360 auf Flugfläche 350 zu sinken. Dieses Sinken war für den Weiterflug nach Barcelona notwendig und war gleichzeitig eine Maßnahme, um einen Höhenstaffelung zu der Boeing B 757 herzustellen.
(Analyzing swiss radio recording, the 154 was advised to sink from FL360 to FL 350 50 seconds prior to the collision, this altitude change was already planned for the flight to barcelona and an action to achive separation with the 757)
Während die Besatzung auf eine erste Aufforderung nicht reagierte, reagierte sie auf eine zweite Aufforderung und begann den Sinkflug ca. 25 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß. Kurze Zeit später begann auch die Boeing 757 aufgrund einer TCAS RA zu sinken. TCAS bedeutet „Traffic alert and collision avoidance system". Dies ist ein Gerät, das die Besatzung eines Flugzeuges vor anderem Flugverkehr warnt und der Besatzung Anweisungen gibt, wie zu reagieren ist, um einen Zusammenstoß zu verhindern.
(Ignoring the first advise, the 154 crew started to descend 25 seconds before the crash, shortly AFTER the 757 also started a descent due to an TCAS RA [...])
Warum die Warnung dieses Gerätes ebenfalls zu einem Sinkflug der Boeing 757 führte, ist noch unklar und wird Gegenstand weiterer Untersuchungen sein.
(Further investigations will show why the warning advised a descend for the 757)
So maybe someone put the blame on the russians much to early ?
Verry, verry sad, condolences to all involved
This seems very strange practice to me, and definately not SOP as stated in previous reports from the Swiss!
The report seems to be from the German Aviation Authority.
_______________________________________
02.07.2002 05:00
BFU Press release
Actual Aircraft Accident
On July 1st 2002, 23:35 MESZ (21:35 UTC), well above the Bodensee a midair collision happened with a B757-200 (DHL) and a TU154 (Bashkirian Airlines – Russian Ferderation). The RNAV-Route Salzburg-Traunstein-Kempten-Trasadingen was used by the TU154 while B757 flew along RNAV-Route ABESI-AKABI-TANGO, both aircraft approached each other at FL 360. The collision took place close to AKABI at FL 354. At the time of occurrence both aircraft were under control by Zürich ACC.
The accident is under investigation by the BFU.
An investigation team is out to arrive at the accident site and to meet the investigation team of the Police in Friedrichshafen.
Momentarily the follwing is known: B757-200 / TU154
Aircraft Operator: DHL / Bashkirian Airlines
People aboard): 2 / ca. 57 + 12
Departure Aerodrome: Bergamo / Moskau
Destination: Brüssel / Barcelona
Flightplan:
Mode of operation: Cargo / Charter PAX-Transport
People killed:
People hurt:
Aircraft damage: Both aircraft crashed
Third party damage: Buildings and environmental damage
Phase of flight): cruise
Type of accident: Mid Air Collision
As soon as new information is available, it will be published on the BFU-internet-homepage or released.
Ergänzung der BFU-Presseinformation von 05:00 Uhr
(Supplemental Information, 5am UTC)
Eine erste Auswertung des Sprechfunkverkehrs der Schweizer Flugsicherung mit den beiden Flugzeugen hat ergeben, dass die Besatzung der TU 154 ca. 50 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß die Anweisung bekam, von Flugfläche 360 auf Flugfläche 350 zu sinken. Dieses Sinken war für den Weiterflug nach Barcelona notwendig und war gleichzeitig eine Maßnahme, um einen Höhenstaffelung zu der Boeing B 757 herzustellen.
(Analyzing swiss radio recording, the 154 was advised to sink from FL360 to FL 350 50 seconds prior to the collision, this altitude change was already planned for the flight to barcelona and an action to achive separation with the 757)
Während die Besatzung auf eine erste Aufforderung nicht reagierte, reagierte sie auf eine zweite Aufforderung und begann den Sinkflug ca. 25 Sekunden vor dem Zusammenstoß. Kurze Zeit später begann auch die Boeing 757 aufgrund einer TCAS RA zu sinken. TCAS bedeutet „Traffic alert and collision avoidance system". Dies ist ein Gerät, das die Besatzung eines Flugzeuges vor anderem Flugverkehr warnt und der Besatzung Anweisungen gibt, wie zu reagieren ist, um einen Zusammenstoß zu verhindern.
(Ignoring the first advise, the 154 crew started to descend 25 seconds before the crash, shortly AFTER the 757 also started a descent due to an TCAS RA [...])
Warum die Warnung dieses Gerätes ebenfalls zu einem Sinkflug der Boeing 757 führte, ist noch unklar und wird Gegenstand weiterer Untersuchungen sein.
(Further investigations will show why the warning advised a descend for the 757)
So maybe someone put the blame on the russians much to early ?
Verry, verry sad, condolences to all involved
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems from the reports that the Russian pilot didn't respond to ATC, and the DHL pilot descended in response to TCAS.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Abu Dhabi
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just spent half the evening reading through the posts on "Reporting Points" forum. Some interesting stuff on there. Everybody in the media has been quick to jump on the russian crew as they are an easy horse to beat. If it is true that Swiss ATC had two Co-ordinated in at FL360 (from different centres) on crossing tracks and then failed to attempt to resolve the situation until they were 8-10nm apart then that is a bit frightening. I know we are all human and we all make mistakes which is why STCA, TCAS and the like evolved. It was also said by swiss ATC that they have medium term conflict alert but it was down for maintainence. Surely it will all come out in the wash....
But for the grace god go us all and lets spare a thought not just for the families of those killed in this tragedy, but the poor guy or guyess at the console who, regardless of any blame or not, saw it happen on the tube. I'm that is something that will stay with them forever and I hope to god I never have to deal with it................................................
But for the grace god go us all and lets spare a thought not just for the families of those killed in this tragedy, but the poor guy or guyess at the console who, regardless of any blame or not, saw it happen on the tube. I'm that is something that will stay with them forever and I hope to god I never have to deal with it................................................
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Middle East
Posts: 1,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To much reliance on "gadgets and Gizmo's", lets get back to raw ATC and flight operations and also use some of the more basic, and yet effective ATC tools at hand. Radar is wonderful, but at the end of the day the triple redundant radars (as always so proudly advertised by manufacturers!!!) do fail, ours only 2 days ago..... my point is that it is still important not to forget the basics of our procedural standards and build a bit of "fat" into the program to allow for, poor comms, possible language problems, co-ordination failures, radar failures etc. It should be noted that quite a few of these issues are human factor related and on last check we are all human.
I am sure for the controllers that have been in the business long enough and have filled their "little bag of tricks", that one of the most dangerous times is when it is quiet. Having had a few good scares on these grounds, I ensure now that during these times I am proactive with conflict resolution because I have let myself down before through complacency. This point is made not necessarily to the actual case at hand, which investigation is still only in its infancy, but more as a wake up call to us all in every aspect of the industry to ensure we all maintain our highest possible standards and support each other to provide the best and safest service possible.
It goes without saying that regardless of who is responsible, the controllers and supervisors at this centre will be enduring the most horrific time of the lives and it is important we make sure that we give them the support they need.
I am sure for the controllers that have been in the business long enough and have filled their "little bag of tricks", that one of the most dangerous times is when it is quiet. Having had a few good scares on these grounds, I ensure now that during these times I am proactive with conflict resolution because I have let myself down before through complacency. This point is made not necessarily to the actual case at hand, which investigation is still only in its infancy, but more as a wake up call to us all in every aspect of the industry to ensure we all maintain our highest possible standards and support each other to provide the best and safest service possible.
It goes without saying that regardless of who is responsible, the controllers and supervisors at this centre will be enduring the most horrific time of the lives and it is important we make sure that we give them the support they need.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LONDON
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just been hearing about another incident at LL yesterday involving a Shuttle off BNN which went PLOC (prolonged loss off communication). It went for about 15 miles across the top of LL (fortunately pre co-ordinated) and down the south side without talking.
So why have the Russians been blamed so quickly for this mid-air? Yes they didn't respond as quickly as one would like but surely, a system which allows crossing traffic to get that close at the same level before taking action is at the root of the cause?
The first lesson I learned at the college was that in this game sod's law works double but because things rarely go wrong, we have come to expect that they won't. It seems to me that, driven by commercial pressure, we are no longer allowing for the possibility of system failure and there are circumstances within the London TMA which could allow such an accident to happen here.
Point 4
So why have the Russians been blamed so quickly for this mid-air? Yes they didn't respond as quickly as one would like but surely, a system which allows crossing traffic to get that close at the same level before taking action is at the root of the cause?
The first lesson I learned at the college was that in this game sod's law works double but because things rarely go wrong, we have come to expect that they won't. It seems to me that, driven by commercial pressure, we are no longer allowing for the possibility of system failure and there are circumstances within the London TMA which could allow such an accident to happen here.
Point 4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Nice point 120.4
It may turn out that, as normal in these circumstances, the blame is shared around.
But I really feel for the controllers involved, whatever happens, because I know that they will feel (probably correctly) that even if they acted to the letter of standard ops proc, they could have done something else, something extra, and averted this.
I'm very sorry for all involved, and us too. The last couple of days at work have been strange. Crews nearly never miss a call now, and everyone's a little bit more circumspect and sombre. In a way I look forward to the day the sick jokes start, then I know we will have started to recover.
But maybe it'll take us all some time.
It may turn out that, as normal in these circumstances, the blame is shared around.
But I really feel for the controllers involved, whatever happens, because I know that they will feel (probably correctly) that even if they acted to the letter of standard ops proc, they could have done something else, something extra, and averted this.
I'm very sorry for all involved, and us too. The last couple of days at work have been strange. Crews nearly never miss a call now, and everyone's a little bit more circumspect and sombre. In a way I look forward to the day the sick jokes start, then I know we will have started to recover.
But maybe it'll take us all some time.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Chelsea
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
accidents like this should not happen with today technology in uncongested skies at night... who or whatever is to blame will come out in the end.... prayes go out to all those who lost thier lives and thier families...
In my opinion non TCAS aircraft should not be allowed to fly in european airspace... why bother making oneperson compliant and not the other(s)....
GOD BLESS ALL INVOLVED
In my opinion non TCAS aircraft should not be allowed to fly in european airspace... why bother making oneperson compliant and not the other(s)....
GOD BLESS ALL INVOLVED
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: home
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a preventative note is it correct that the Swiss centre is the only other privatised ATCC in Europe, and did I hear that there was only one controller on the radar. Let that be stern warning to anyone still prepared to undertake both Tactical and Planner roles at LACC against the regulations - and management, lets hope this tragic event will prevent you from ever considering single manning of night shifts as a solution to our desperate staffing situation.
I feel as much for the families as the controller involved, a terrible tradgedy and one which we have to agree could have been prevented and MUST not be allowed to happen again. Whatever the issue, voice your opinions through all available channels and do not allow your concerns over safety to be brushed asside, we need the system to be as safe as possible.
I feel as much for the families as the controller involved, a terrible tradgedy and one which we have to agree could have been prevented and MUST not be allowed to happen again. Whatever the issue, voice your opinions through all available channels and do not allow your concerns over safety to be brushed asside, we need the system to be as safe as possible.
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 75
Posts: 1,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dover8Mike wrote: In my opinion non TCAS aircraft should not be allowed to fly in european airspace... why bother making oneperson compliant and not the other(s)....
This seems to be totally irrelevant in this case, however the greatest offenders are the various governments themselves. A large percentage of "state" aircraft are neither TCAS or RVSM equipped.
May their gods be with them
This seems to be totally irrelevant in this case, however the greatest offenders are the various governments themselves. A large percentage of "state" aircraft are neither TCAS or RVSM equipped.
May their gods be with them
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Somewhere on the warm side!
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBC news are now reporting that due to the 'conflict alert' system (STCA?) being off-line for maintenance, the procedures are for 2 controllers to man the sector (presumably as T & P). An extra set of eyes and ears to make up for the absence of the automated conflict alert, whether that be STCA or Medium Term Conflict Detection.
One of these controllers was reportedly on an "unauthorised break" when the accident happened.
The finger seems to be being pointed at the Russian crew. However, if, and it is only an 'if', both the aircraft were co-ordinated in at FL360, the controller has accepted a planning conflict that should be resolved by tactical means, i.e. vectoring or climb/descent, when on frequency. The fact that reports indicate instructions to change level were only given a minute prior to the accident occurring would suggest that 'avoiding action' was being instigated rather than a routine deconfliction of traffic. Vertical separation should of course be provided before the loss of lateral separation (presumably 5nm in the airspace concerned). Unfortunately, initial indications suggest that ATC error may be the root cause of the accident.
One of these controllers was reportedly on an "unauthorised break" when the accident happened.
The finger seems to be being pointed at the Russian crew. However, if, and it is only an 'if', both the aircraft were co-ordinated in at FL360, the controller has accepted a planning conflict that should be resolved by tactical means, i.e. vectoring or climb/descent, when on frequency. The fact that reports indicate instructions to change level were only given a minute prior to the accident occurring would suggest that 'avoiding action' was being instigated rather than a routine deconfliction of traffic. Vertical separation should of course be provided before the loss of lateral separation (presumably 5nm in the airspace concerned). Unfortunately, initial indications suggest that ATC error may be the root cause of the accident.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Just North of France
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This should be a serious reminder to all ATC management of the responsibility of controllers and the job they do.
Yes this accident happened at night and complacency may have been a factor,as we know can happen when sectors are quiet.
However, management should now be very cautious on pushing flow rates up and providing very little contingency for when it does go wrong. The number of current overloads at LACC shows the position that people are being put into.
Sectors should never be working above 90% capacity to allow for unusual events, bunching or over delivery of traffic.
I hope it doesn't take something similar in the UK for management to take note!
And they think we are overpaid????
Yes this accident happened at night and complacency may have been a factor,as we know can happen when sectors are quiet.
However, management should now be very cautious on pushing flow rates up and providing very little contingency for when it does go wrong. The number of current overloads at LACC shows the position that people are being put into.
Sectors should never be working above 90% capacity to allow for unusual events, bunching or over delivery of traffic.
I hope it doesn't take something similar in the UK for management to take note!
And they think we are overpaid????
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously we don't have all (or any?) facts from the press reports, generally all speculation. But I do wonder, if its true, that if the Russian failed to respond in time to the avoiding action given why the Controller never issued avoiding action to the DHL? Or why it wasn't given to both considering they must only have been about 15 miles apart if its true that the first descent instruction was given to the Russian at 50 seconds before impact.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: EGTT
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PUZZLED!!
Just watched BBC1 6pm news talking about Swiss STCA being off for maintenance.
Followed up by saying that 'UK ATC say that their safety systems are never switched off'.
What about weekly shutdowns and DD+C events???
Everything goes off - or am I dreaming?
Just watched BBC1 6pm news talking about Swiss STCA being off for maintenance.
Followed up by saying that 'UK ATC say that their safety systems are never switched off'.
What about weekly shutdowns and DD+C events???
Everything goes off - or am I dreaming?