controllers can earn 350,000 euros ($470,000; £297,000)
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Fair point, monthly net ... I own a calculator. 
Now to look at my old payslips ...
Now to look at my old payslips ...
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MPN11
I'm ex-mil, now civvy. I can honestly say that proportionally, there are more chubsters amongst the Active Mil ATCO/ATSA population than there are amongst the civvy ones. In fact some of the mil people I see milling (no pun intended) around my workplace are beyond being unfit and are a disgrace to their uniform (even if it is a hand me down from the AA) 
.
The Annual Fitness Test is and always has been a joke, especially when allowances for age etc are appplied.
That's not to say that I don't think the Mil people deserve the 'perks' they get, but don't use general fitness as part of your argument - it is a non starter
My pension is quite nice, but that has to cover me from age 55 until death; my civil colleagues can soldier on to 65, because they don't have to be fit enough to go to war
.The Annual Fitness Test is and always has been a joke, especially when allowances for age etc are appplied.
That's not to say that I don't think the Mil people deserve the 'perks' they get, but don't use general fitness as part of your argument - it is a non starter
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@Junior Jetset - you really are a troll!
The latest cost estimate for training a fully rated ATCO at my unit is €750,000 and takes over 2 years 
Since when has an ATPL cost that?
You have completely missed the point there as well.Unlike an ATPL where if you throw enough money at it and resit enough exams most people will pass. Not just anyone can do the job of an ATCO, there is some innate ability that is very hard to spot
Millions of Euros have been spent developing selection tests and yet there are still 50% failure rates. 100% success rate from selection test are the holy grail for recruitment and ANSPs would love to drag people off the street (or from the dole queue) and train them up. I'm sure Mr o'Leary would be a lot happier as well
A I said in my previous post the situation in Spain is completely manufactured by the government. They were very happy with the situation before the crisis paying overtime rather than training costs. But as soon as they realised how much they were paying and wanted to privatise they started changing the rules and whinging like little brats.
Don't get me wrong I am not fully in favour of the controllers in Spain, their union has also a lot to answer for, but the government is acting like a dictatorship and not telling the whole truth
Training is easily provided and not as exspensive like gaining an ATPL - although I do apprecaite the time to train is similar or longer.
Since when has an ATPL cost that?
Surely with 20% unemployed there is scope to train up the young and keen who who could do the job at a fraction of the coast akin to Ryanair FOs
Millions of Euros have been spent developing selection tests and yet there are still 50% failure rates. 100% success rate from selection test are the holy grail for recruitment and ANSPs would love to drag people off the street (or from the dole queue) and train them up. I'm sure Mr o'Leary would be a lot happier as well
A I said in my previous post the situation in Spain is completely manufactured by the government. They were very happy with the situation before the crisis paying overtime rather than training costs. But as soon as they realised how much they were paying and wanted to privatise they started changing the rules and whinging like little brats.
Don't get me wrong I am not fully in favour of the controllers in Spain, their union has also a lot to answer for, but the government is acting like a dictatorship and not telling the whole truth
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@ anotherthing ... I have no doubt you are right, and sadly it was ever thus!!
However, I addressed the general principle, rather than the reality. And I understand that the steady flow of ATCOs to a certain sandy place involves a fair degree of pre-deployment fitness training.
However, I addressed the general principle, rather than the reality. And I understand that the steady flow of ATCOs to a certain sandy place involves a fair degree of pre-deployment fitness training.
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EC
For Eurocontrol MASUAC you can find the basic salaries here:
EUROCONTROL - Frequently Asked Questions on Air Traffic Controller Careers
Single expat:
Air traffic controller: € 4232
Working shifts entitles staff to payment of a flat-rate shift allowance which is set at € 1425 for those working a 24/7 shift
Lon More: now you're only entitled for a tax-free car if you actually reside in the Netherlands - if you live in Belgium/Germany you don't have this option.
Surferboy: I don't think there's gonna be any conversion training in Maastricht anytime soon - since the last one was (again) not too successful - many of those guys couldn't finish the training, so I seriously doubt there will be an other one for a few years at least...
EUROCONTROL - Frequently Asked Questions on Air Traffic Controller Careers
Single expat:
Air traffic controller: € 4232
Working shifts entitles staff to payment of a flat-rate shift allowance which is set at € 1425 for those working a 24/7 shift
Lon More: now you're only entitled for a tax-free car if you actually reside in the Netherlands - if you live in Belgium/Germany you don't have this option.
Surferboy: I don't think there's gonna be any conversion training in Maastricht anytime soon - since the last one was (again) not too successful - many of those guys couldn't finish the training, so I seriously doubt there will be an other one for a few years at least...
Take a deep breath and rise to the bait: how on earth can it cost 750,000 euros to train an ATCO? Certainly won't dispute that it takes a clever chap/ess to do the job but that level of investment,really ? One could do an ATPL in a Eurofighter for half the cost ( that's a joke btw ).
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You have completely missed the point there as well.Unlike an ATPL where if you throw enough money at it and resit enough exams most people will pass. Not just anyone can do the job of an ATCO, there is some innate ability that is very hard to spot
I have seen many people fail initial assessment and get nowhere near an ATPL course. You need very similar skills, capacity, ability to multi-task as well as good co-ordination etc. Even if you do as you say and chuck money at it until you pass nobody will hire you with the exam pass rate. 100k (of your own hard cash) not very well spend and very few if any do that.
p.s. pass rate at oxford for the assessment is about 50% i believe.
More than just an ATCO
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Olster I can't access the actual figures as I'm now out of the circuit but believe the €750000 would be accurate.
Take into account the costs of selection - paper sort, transport, accommodation, the selection tests and the board. After that a first-class medicaland thousands of applicants are whittled down to a couple of hundred.
From them'the selected few, usually 15, then begin an intensive course at IANS or Toulouse or Langen.
Add in the cost of the physical plant (buildings, simulators etc.) The costs of staff (instructors aren't cheap. Even though a lot of the time not spent instructing, preparing instruction material, etc., they may be sitting around)
Factor into this the costs of those who fail/withdraw from training at this stage.
Assuming they pass (usually about 12, though it has been as low as 5 - which caused a major re-think) and go onto an operational unit this starts all over again. Lectures in unit specific practices, letters of agreement, then back into a simulator to familiarise them with the airspace they will be controlling and the specific equipment they will be using (€ millions for the sim. which might have an operational life of 10 years but only be used for 3 -400 hundred students) Each training position on our sim. required one instructor (usually a training officer or experienced controller (who will also have attended specialist courses before starting as a coach), two "pilots" to fly the blips (ours were temps. to keep costs down) a controller, as co-ordination partner (he sat with the pilots and could throw in the occasional spanner) plus the Sim. Boss (full time and responsible for keeping everything working) Throw in the costs of preparing the traffic samples and wrting the program up.
Should they get through this and make it to the Ops. Room the preferred method is one-on-one, so for every student all the costs of one controller have to be added as he is no longer generally available to perform duties. Also each team will have a Training Officer watching over progress, or lack of it, and preparing progress reports. Again. at this stage, but only after a lot of discussion, change of team/OJT Coach, it is possible to fail right up to the last Validation Check-out.
Don't forget, when a trainee fails it is normally a 100% loss of all the investment made in him, although it is sometimes possible that he finds employment in another part of the organisation.There is no possibility of going back and trying again, even with another provider as they will be looking into the student's background. Failing the ATPL along the way still would leave the student with possibly CPL/twin/IR ratings so still with a (limited) job market and the possibility to re-sit the ATPL at a later date.
PS Millerman Junior Jetset and LH2. troll twins?
Take into account the costs of selection - paper sort, transport, accommodation, the selection tests and the board. After that a first-class medicaland thousands of applicants are whittled down to a couple of hundred.
From them'the selected few, usually 15, then begin an intensive course at IANS or Toulouse or Langen.
Add in the cost of the physical plant (buildings, simulators etc.) The costs of staff (instructors aren't cheap. Even though a lot of the time not spent instructing, preparing instruction material, etc., they may be sitting around)
Factor into this the costs of those who fail/withdraw from training at this stage.
Assuming they pass (usually about 12, though it has been as low as 5 - which caused a major re-think) and go onto an operational unit this starts all over again. Lectures in unit specific practices, letters of agreement, then back into a simulator to familiarise them with the airspace they will be controlling and the specific equipment they will be using (€ millions for the sim. which might have an operational life of 10 years but only be used for 3 -400 hundred students) Each training position on our sim. required one instructor (usually a training officer or experienced controller (who will also have attended specialist courses before starting as a coach), two "pilots" to fly the blips (ours were temps. to keep costs down) a controller, as co-ordination partner (he sat with the pilots and could throw in the occasional spanner) plus the Sim. Boss (full time and responsible for keeping everything working) Throw in the costs of preparing the traffic samples and wrting the program up.
Should they get through this and make it to the Ops. Room the preferred method is one-on-one, so for every student all the costs of one controller have to be added as he is no longer generally available to perform duties. Also each team will have a Training Officer watching over progress, or lack of it, and preparing progress reports. Again. at this stage, but only after a lot of discussion, change of team/OJT Coach, it is possible to fail right up to the last Validation Check-out.
Don't forget, when a trainee fails it is normally a 100% loss of all the investment made in him, although it is sometimes possible that he finds employment in another part of the organisation.There is no possibility of going back and trying again, even with another provider as they will be looking into the student's background. Failing the ATPL along the way still would leave the student with possibly CPL/twin/IR ratings so still with a (limited) job market and the possibility to re-sit the ATPL at a later date.
PS Millerman Junior Jetset and LH2. troll twins?
ok -I buy it -not literally of course but a convincing and cogent explanation.Interesting.Cheers.
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@Jagohu:
Interesting, afaik everyone that ever went down south to Limburg from the ANSP where I work did make it. Vice versa as well I believe. Too bad, for almost twice the amount of my current net salary I would be tempted.
(Eventhough Maastricht truly isn't the best part of Holland )
Interesting, afaik everyone that ever went down south to Limburg from the ANSP where I work did make it. Vice versa as well I believe. Too bad, for almost twice the amount of my current net salary I would be tempted.
(Eventhough Maastricht truly isn't the best part of Holland )
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I believe the working style, attitude and training methodology of LVNL and MUAC are broadly similar and certainly 'gel' together well.
It shouldnt really be a surprise that jumping ship from one to the other works quite well
It doesnt go smoothly for every experienced conversion recruit though, as several have recently found out.
It shouldnt really be a surprise that jumping ship from one to the other works quite well
It doesnt go smoothly for every experienced conversion recruit though, as several have recently found out.
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Comparing controllers and pilots is like comparing apples and oranges. The required skill sets are quite different, but perhaps more importantly in ATC there are not as many chances as there are on the pilot side. If you don't get an ATC job you can't just keep your licence current and look around for other ATC jobs!
I was on one of those courses mentioned by Lon More where only 5 made it through the college (sadly I was one of the 7 who didn't make it in my course). Halfway through the course we were 8 students left. I also have a CPL and am now doing the ME/IR (all state-sponsored, given to 25 students each year, so there is competition, similar to the ATC selections). All 25 of us are still here, and I expect all of us to pass the CAA check flight as well. If the training and exam philosophy in pilot training would be similar to ATC training though, I suspect we would have a much higher failure rate. In my experience, in pilot training it's recognized that nobody performs perfectly all of the time, maybe not even on the check flight, but one mistake here or there doesn't equal failure, unless it's a major screw-up. Even if it is, the pilot can always fly the check flight again.
In ATC you are continually in training until you validate. If you don't make it to validation at your unit for whatever reason, it's normally very difficult to find somewhere else to finish your training and start your ATC career.
For pilots, I'd say the worry is not the training or "failing the ATPL", but finding your first job. The "student" with CPL/IR/ME is not really a student but a fully licensed pilot, but will possibly find it just as hard to find a job as it is for the not-yet-validated ATC dropout.
To make a (poor) ATC analogy of it, it would be like training for TWR at the college, and then sending your CV to every airport, maybe working as an AFISO and going in the TWR sim once a year to keep your ADV rating current. Then you realise that an ADV rating on its own will get you nowhere, so you buy an ADI rating. Then if you're lucky enough to get that TWR job, with a few years experience you might have a chance on an APP job, but of course you would have to pay for the APS rating yourself...
I was on one of those courses mentioned by Lon More where only 5 made it through the college (sadly I was one of the 7 who didn't make it in my course). Halfway through the course we were 8 students left. I also have a CPL and am now doing the ME/IR (all state-sponsored, given to 25 students each year, so there is competition, similar to the ATC selections). All 25 of us are still here, and I expect all of us to pass the CAA check flight as well. If the training and exam philosophy in pilot training would be similar to ATC training though, I suspect we would have a much higher failure rate. In my experience, in pilot training it's recognized that nobody performs perfectly all of the time, maybe not even on the check flight, but one mistake here or there doesn't equal failure, unless it's a major screw-up. Even if it is, the pilot can always fly the check flight again.
Don't forget, when a trainee fails it is normally a 100% loss of all the investment made in him, although it is sometimes possible that he finds employment in another part of the organisation.There is no possibility of going back and trying again, even with another provider as they will be looking into the student's background. Failing the ATPL along the way still would leave the student with possibly CPL/twin/IR ratings so still with a (limited) job market and the possibility to re-sit the ATPL at a later date.
For pilots, I'd say the worry is not the training or "failing the ATPL", but finding your first job. The "student" with CPL/IR/ME is not really a student but a fully licensed pilot, but will possibly find it just as hard to find a job as it is for the not-yet-validated ATC dropout.
To make a (poor) ATC analogy of it, it would be like training for TWR at the college, and then sending your CV to every airport, maybe working as an AFISO and going in the TWR sim once a year to keep your ADV rating current. Then you realise that an ADV rating on its own will get you nowhere, so you buy an ADI rating. Then if you're lucky enough to get that TWR job, with a few years experience you might have a chance on an APP job, but of course you would have to pay for the APS rating yourself...
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@ Lon More ... a very fair call on the training bill, albeit from the Civ side. The same applies to UK Mil ATC ... expensive simulators at the School, large number of staff, and then On-Job Training [OJT] at the Units. In the Mil case it's worse, as a posting every 2 1/2 years means re-validation at a new Unit [with the same manpower bill for training until the individual is fully validated]. Even the best people can take 3 months to work through a well-run local system.
My very last task before I retired was to produce a paper identifying ways of 'efficiencising' OJT ... it's a huge bill. I have no idea whether any of it was implemented, of course, but it looked good to me.
My very last task before I retired was to produce a paper identifying ways of 'efficiencising' OJT ... it's a huge bill. I have no idea whether any of it was implemented, of course, but it looked good to me.
Thread Starter
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I'll take the Troll bashing on the chin as I somewhat deserve it. I openly admit that I am naive in this area, but am gratefull for all the posts that have helped me understand better this industry and the economic structure of it.
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Max-1
Nope, you may get a bit of compensation for travelling back home every year, plus an extra day holidays or more (depending on your place of origin). You can check that online.
Surferboy
Indeed, it isn't. Personally, I grew up in an island and miss the sea terribly. And the canals and the Maas just don't cut it.
Nope, you may get a bit of compensation for travelling back home every year, plus an extra day holidays or more (depending on your place of origin). You can check that online.
Surferboy
Indeed, it isn't. Personally, I grew up in an island and miss the sea terribly. And the canals and the Maas just don't cut it.
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Can imagine, even more so if you were accustomed to a warmer climate than the current Dutch one. 
But you are renumerated quite well if you compare to other ANSP's in Northern Europe, so that could make up a bit for the scenery!
But you are renumerated quite well if you compare to other ANSP's in Northern Europe, so that could make up a bit for the scenery!
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???
Is that LH2 as in my handle? What do I have to do with any of this? Or "trolling" as you call it? 
Is that anything to do with my asking some pertinent questions, which you apparently chose to ignore, and subsequently went on to dismiss an entire thread?
Then you show up on another thread where, as far as I can tell, nothing of substance is being discussed, in order to contribute exactly what? Some out of date trivia?
"More than just an ATCO" you say? Well for a start you are not even an ATCO anymore: you have retired. Meanwhile, some of us do have something at stake here which is why we take an interest. We may disagree with other people as we do, but as long as it's all kept civil and intelligent, we're bound to learn something.
One goes and politely asks someone who seems knowledgeable a sincere inquisitive question; not only they do not reply (which is fine) but then they go calling you a troll elsewhere (which is not fine). One has to wonder sometimes.
Btw, I have no idea who Junior whatever is, and Millerman is in my ignore list, and so are you from this moment, ergo don't bother replying--you had your chance a while back.
Apologies for the rant everyone else
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A bad case of Civil ATCO "Handbags at Dawn" ... come on guys 