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Kids controlling at JFK

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Kids controlling at JFK

Old 4th Mar 2010, 10:53
  #41 (permalink)  
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So "Adios Amigos" responded with "Adios Amigo" were, in themselves, contraventions of the law?
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 11:41
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Congratulations to Jr. Controller

Rules for humans, NOT Humans for rules
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 12:14
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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While it all sounded very cute with a little kid speaking on the frequency this is surely going to end up with the controller being fired. I have had loads of people over the years plugged in with me and watching what i do. Friends, family, pilots, work experience kids from school etc, at no point have i thought it would be a good idea to let them have a go on the frequency, even with my strict supervision. I think from a UK (Nats) perspective this would come under the umbrella of gross misconduct and you would be shown the door.
I'm sure dad had junior on a very tight leash but what if an incident had occured that had nothing to do with the controller, like a runway incursion. Or what if dad, god forbid, made a mistake, and junior clears someone for takeoff with traffic on the runway. 75 people died when the aeroflot pilot let his kids 'have a go' a few years back. That was under strict supervision as well, and I'm sure dad in that case was a good pilot and a nice guy just showing his kids what he did for a living.
I'm sure the JFK controller is a nice guy but his actions here seem to be poor judgement at best. I hope he gets away with a warning but i fear the worst for his career.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 12:50
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Ditchdigger

As I pointed out in the thread up in the R&N section, even if you're properly authorized, it's "illegal" to add "Good day",
Rubbish. CAP 413 (UK) is produced to provide guidance to UK RTF users. It states that
...Users of RTF in the UK are expected to comply with the phraseology described in this manual...
There is nothing within the manual that states use of pleasantries etc is 'illegal'. It is not standard RT Phraseology, but that's a hell of a lot different from being 'illegal'.

There are many times that even the most standard ATCO or pilot will have to use phrases/words outwith the scope of any RTF Phraseology Publication (not just CAP 413), because there are many situations that are not covered.

It is printed as a guideline and should be used whenever possible.

However, rules governing who can speak on ATC RT etc are laid down in law.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 13:54
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Heard on local Florida news a suspension is being considered, not removal. Much more appropriate IMO since the FAA would/should have authorized the visit to begin with. And NATCA is most effective in the NY area so I'd bet if he's had no problems before a warning or reprimand may be the result. Depends on the charges.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 15:05
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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This has been blown way out of proportion imo. Ok the controller screwed up, word in his ear rap on the knuckles and he won't do it again. Think suspending him is a bit much. But then once again when the media gets hold of a story like this it develops wings pardon the pun...
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 15:29
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I don't normally post on PPRuNe, but having read some of the ridiculous comments on here (and on other webistes)I feel compelled to reply.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but quite clearly there are lots of people in this thread (and around the world) who don't know the first thing about ATC or the job that we do.

For a start, in the UK you need a Radio Telephony licence in order to transmit on an ATC frequency. The minimum age for such a licence is 16 years of age. Does no such age restriction exist in the USA?

So if this were the UK, that's one rule broken before we've even started.

I am just stunned that anybody would allow a child to transmit instructions to aircraft on their ATC licence. This has nothing to do with "humour" at all. It's irresponsible, it smacks of total unprofessionalism, and I can't believe that anybody would think it would be a good idea. I wouldn't even supervise an ADULT on my licence if they hadn't got a student ATC licence, let alone a child with zero training whatsoever.

When you think that we aren't even allowed visitors in the Operations Room now unless you have an aviation background, what could possibly make ANYBODY think this is just harmless fun? Quite frankly, it beggars belief.

The people involved in this should be dismissed instantly without question.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 15:43
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure whether this is the same event being discussed?!!

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Old 4th Mar 2010, 15:45
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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You all need to lighten up.
Was very nice to hear somebody allowing a child to have fun at no perceptible risk to anybody.
Incidentally, everyone goes on about the aeroflot crash, but the fact that one pilot allowed his kid to crash does not mean giving your kid a go is inherrantly unsafe if properly supervised.
My dad used to let me fly his aircraft from the right for hours on end in the holidays as a kid. It was only a twin turboprop, but none of the passengers ever seemed to mind, and I loved it! He used to let any kid who fancied it have a go.
This age is far too worried about health and safety to live a little and enjoy life.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 16:03
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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For a start, in the UK you need a Radio Telephony licence in order to transmit on an ATC frequency. The minimum age for such a licence is 16 years of age.
Nope the minimum age you can start logging hours for a pilots license is 14. The kids do use the radio when they are 14. And I have had a couple of trial flights younger than that doing a bit of RT. Nobody had a problem with a "cleared takeoff".

Give the controller a good finger waving at, make him clean the fridge in the crew kitchen for a month and forget about it.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 16:15
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I had to laugh at the earlier post of US "folksiness" (is that a word?). If I hear another "ok..we'll pedal a little bit harder" from a pilot, after an increase in speed instruction, I may vomit. LOL
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 16:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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TV report 10 minutes ago, suspension. Don't know how long.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 17:26
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I have no idea what the professional background is of the people who have posted here. As a 'lifetime' ATCO I find this whole episode sadly un-professional and embarrassing - simple as that.

ATC is not something trivial. It's core Flight Safety, along with what happens in the cockpit, and with engineering. It's NOT something to let kids use, especially at an International airport - period. I'm surprised, and disappointed, that flight crew didn't submit a complaint, TBH.

Sorry to sound grumpy, but this is not some minor airstrip and it's not a playground. If that ATCO had been on my staff, I'd have nailed his nuts to the desk before the interview.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 18:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Someone please enlighten me (as a valid atco) how this kid making SUPERVISED transmissions with a professional controller next to him...who also happened to be his dad...was going to all of a sudden cause chaos, mayhem and death all around the skies of JFK on that particular day.
Are there some very dangerous buttons that shall not be pushed in control towers around the world as they would cause all planes to crash? Are there self destruct buttons? Was this kid going to go crazy all of a sudden? Was he going to make up clearances...the like of which pilots would understand...that would cause safety implications?

If you answer yes to the above..then go hand in your water bottles and coke and half eaten chocolate bar as you pass through security because of the threat they pose.

I also am just hazarding a guess that a tinpot airport such as JFK would allow OJIs to overide transmissions made by their trainees just in case..and am also just having a stab in the dark that perhaps that is what the dad had his child and their headsets hooked into.

Did the guy break the rules. Yes.
Was it unprofessional. Possibly.
Did he compromise safety. NO

Us ATCOS can be so up ourselves at times ye know. Are we just scared that even though we have gone through years training and are at the "core of flight safety", a young child can make a transmission (supervised) and the other side of the mic respond. Does that make you feel unworthy? Your job isn't as hard as it may seem.

BTW If someone could look up how long it takes to train as a surgeon..and then how long it takes to train as an atco and get back to me.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 18:09
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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@ MAC ... i see where you're coming from, but it is simply unprofessional to allow a kid to do the RT. Period.

I know it's not going to knock the planet off its axis, or anything like that. It's just "not the done thing" IMO.

God, I'm getting old.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 18:12
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

atco-matic Quite frankly I haven't read so much sanctimonious tripe for many a long day
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 18:44
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, what harm did they do. They were only showing their kids what they do at work, and it's not like they weren't sitting right behind them ready to take over at any point.

Come to think of it, it's a such great idea lets ALL take our kids into work and let them pass instructions on the RT. I mean nothing went wrong when they did so it must be okay right?

I hope they throw the book at them... idiots...
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 19:13
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Come to think of it, it's a such great idea lets ALL take our kids into work and let them pass instructions on the RT. I mean nothing went wrong when they did so it must be okay right?
I wonder if bankers have ever taken their kids to work and show them how to do auto-trading?
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 19:35
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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MPN11... Thank God for you, sir.
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Old 4th Mar 2010, 19:52
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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MPN11... Thank God for you, sir.
Pilots often used to say that to me
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