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Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

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Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

Old 23rd Jan 2010, 17:43
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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A new system tool
Mid / Long term conflict detection on the Thales system?
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 19:25
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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I had no interest your wages until you lot drew my attention to it on Wed last by leaving me stranded. You didn't care who else you hurt.

Letters to the Irish Times - " Madam, – As if the current fiscal barriers to attracting business to Ireland weren’t bad enough, the decision by the handsomely remunerated air traffic controllers to go on strike ensures we now have physical barriers to contend with also. – Yours, etc, Eric Ryan"

Starting for a 25 year old ATCO in Ireland
Basic €55,600.
Shift allowance €15,200.
6% Bank holiday allowance €7,200.
30.5% pension contribution of €17,000.

When Thorisgold discussed how his take home pay didn't match anything like what the media were discussing he conveniently forgot to include the extra 30% put aside for his pension. One has to ask how on earth an individual could ignore such a generous payment as that? What else is he ignoring?

My understanding is that only the Spanish are paid more than the Irish. There is public outrage in Spain this week. Of 2,300 controllers 10 were paid between €810,000 and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000. The average basic salary is €200,000. And yes, they are unhappy with their lot and strike too.

So in Spain you now have 1. Adverse public opinion, 2 A faltering economy (property bubble land) and 3. AENA lost €300 million. (sounds a bit like Ireland doesn't it).

Result - Mr Blanco has bowed to public outrage and is reducing salaries by €12.6 million. Pay freeze and / or job cuts.

Ireland are the second highest paid ATCO's in Europe.

I believe the UK controllers get £60,000 on average rising to £90,000 (don't they have two of the worlds busiest airports - bet they use this 'new system tool'.

I don't like misleading international comparisons so until you or your union are truthful to the questioins asked then one can only conclude the media reports are either correct or underestimates.

You strike Wed, following day Leo's lot announced a 20% reduction in capacity. They can make more money elsewhere so they might as well help you feel the pinch of your actions. DAA too must be delighted. DUB won't even be in the top 25. If you had any cop on at all you'd realise you don't go striking about wage increases these days, especially in Ireland.

Hangten, thank you for taking the time.

The bottom line is we need to update our legislation to outlaw the kind of action and damage you guys did to our country last Wed.
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 19:37
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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hangten,

Excellent post, mate.

I'm afraid it's probably lost on most of the professionals on here who hold an alternative view of reality. As for Joe Public, their only brush with ATC is in the aftermath of the likes of last Wednesday when our modern media serve them up a dose of the Mullingar Messiah ranting and raving as only he knows how.

One question. Some of the IAA's talking heads referred to the fact that this new technology has already been introduced. If so where and what is this piece of kit that allows you to dispense with the planner / co-ordinator?
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 19:41
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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"Then, why are you the second highest paid (by a long shot) ATCO's in Europe? What do you have to do that is different from your less well paid conterparts in other countries?"

Can you provide a link to back up that statement
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 19:43
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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MR LARK,

I assure that the Uk controllers would take similar action as the Irish controllers if new untested equipment was forced on them, which is was this dispute was about.

New equipment needs to be tested by the controllers thoroughly, to ensure mistakes are not made. Now if the controllers had not walked out last week, and you had not been inconvenienced, your poor thing, and your flght was involved in a serious airmiss or worse!!!!! Your thoughts on that scenario??

Now onto wages, as has been mentioned in this thread before, not everybody has the attributes required to control planes. Controllers are highly skilled specialists , who earn and deserve their money, and that includes a promised 6% payrise.

If you want to see PM me and I will arrange a visit.

Until then go away and take you delayed upset ego elsewhere.
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 20:08
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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There have been many discussions. RTE's Drivetime. Ingrid Miley, Dermot McDermott - they mentioned average €160,000, UK average €69,000, USA average €77,000. Spain up to €900,000.

Now I'm curious. What is this new technology? Were the Irish given first crack. Were you first to use it? Did one of you invent it?

Like I said you don't on one hand hold ordinary Joe Soaps to ransom and on the other hand ask for a pay rise. Sorry, it just doesn't cut.

Much as I'd love to see the workings of ATC and thank you for the kind offer but I don't think I'd get out of the place alive. No doubt I'll be in the vacinity when you next strike and then we'll both have plenty of time to pay each other a visit.
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 20:10
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Provide LINK please to support your statement
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 20:27
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Ignore the troll!
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 20:52
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Sober Lark,

I'm fairly new to ATC, being about six months into my training - not in Ireland. But it seems to me you know very little about ATC, the interaction between humans and automated systems, and the safety implications involved.

What is this new technology? Were the Irish given first crack. Were you first to use it? Did one of you invent it?
It doesn't really matter whether the Irish were given first crack, invented it or whatever. Each block of airspace is different, each unit is unique. What works one place won't implicitly work universally. Several established procedures and 'old technologies' have potential problems hidden in them for years before they are discovered, mainly because they are often purchased by administrators with no operational knowledge of ATC (i.e. bean counters ) and implemented before they have been fully tested in that precise environment - some of these hidden problems are only discovered when something goes terribly wrong. Even relatively innocuous changes such as increased computerisation of work previously done by humans can go wrong - just think of how often you get by a computer! That is - in my understanding - the broad reason why some Irish ATCOs refused to use the new technology.

RE: pay, it is not a job that can be done by anyone. There are hoops in abundance to jump through in order to get the job in the first place, and once you are in, you live and work with the realisation that you are frequently working at a level of concentration and mental capacity that most cannot obtain. Make a mistake, and you may lose your job. Have a car accident and you might fail your next medical exam, and thus lose your job. If you signed up straight after school, have no other qualifications, passed 40 and it's a recession... well let's just say your options will be limited. Do you really think it's not worth shedding out a good salary to pay the people with the ability and will to do the job? Most people I know say that they "could never work in ATC", due to the stress and responsibility of the job. Yes, the salary is good, and maybe Irish ATCOs are near the top of the salary band in Europe (I am pretty sure that there are more countries that are paid higher, but take into account taxes, house prices, living costs etc, and the salaries are a little more in line... except of course in Spain...). I have absolutely no knowledge of how the Irish ATCOs have managed to get a deal with a 6% payrise, or on what basis that is considered fair, but when such a promise is made the IAA should have to stick to it, or at least start new negotiations from that point on, rather than just turn back on it's word.

I cannot possibly comment as to how much the pay dispute has weighed on the minds of the striking ATCOs, but the IAA ignoring the safety concerns voiced by ATCOs is a very serious issue, and should be stirring more concern than it is.
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 21:07
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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salary

1985
starting salary for a rated controller is 50805eu plus shift allowance for 24hr shift cover weekends and nights making a total of 64522k

my point 70150 or 89091 inc shift

max. 83459 or 105993 inc. shift
its a 20 year scale and on average, in Ireland a 70k salary attracts about 54% in taxes and various levies you can see the kind of Massive money we get.

Pension is 50% of final pay after a minimum of 40 years service and retiremant age is 65, yes 65.


Sober Lark
look at the top of this page. It says that this forum is for PILOTS who wish to talk to ATCOs.
I've read with much interest your other posts on the passengers forum because, yes, you are a passenger.
Not a Pilot
Not an ATCO
Not welcome
So take your place at the side of the runway, sellotape the middle of your glasses and watch the professionals at work.
You've had your 15 mins of fame lording your shallow spiteful and largely irrelevant opinion in a forum your not qualified to be in.
As the labour Court ordered management to reinstate the staff and ordered them to negotiate on the project work and bound them to the findings its obvious that OTHER professionals agree that your heroes in IAA management were wrong. BTW we agreed to return to project work after the court ruled against management as a token of goodwill.

Put simply WE WERE, RIGHT THEY WERE WRONG it doesn't matter what their PR said.
They lied to you in your vulnerable flight cancelled state. (fly ryanair, you get used to it ) and you believed them.
You and your poor damaged ego go home and let Pilots and ATCOs get on with it.
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 22:14
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Its so obvious that sober lark is either an IAA plant or a ryanair stooge or both as its hard tell the different management apart these days its actually funny.

The stoogelark obviously believes everything it reads in the press with no independent back up or confirmation.

So try this on for size. O leary has earned 800 million in the last 10 years. His 'basic' pay is 950,000+ every year plus performance bonus plus pension contribution plus share options. His traffic has tanked by 30% this last 12 months alone so he continues to make his money by financially screwing his staff,airports,and oh yeah his customers!

Fares going up by at least 10% traffic going down,down, down.......anyone see a correlation between those two things??

Now that he has 30% less passengers he must have a lot of time on his hands for bulling his bulls and riding his horses and taking the piss from everyone else as he wizzes by in his taxi. With all this time on his hands will he take a 30% pay cut........................yeah right thought so.

Overpaid and underworked CEO is what he is, who if he screws up once more by losing 400+ million on aerlingus or 600+ million on terrible fuel hedging he will find himself out of a job and on the dole. He will try and claim it too despite years of taking 800 million out of his staff and his companies pocket and lining his own.


Obviously the IAA management who are MOL wannabee's love this style of 'running' a company ,namely screw your most valuable asset by reducing their pay and terms and conditions while they pocket the 'cost savings'.

Obviously no thought is given to the consequence of this i.e you save a few quid but you lose all goodwill and the fact tha staff going above and beyond without even being asked. But this is very hard to quantify so the bean counters dont factor it. BUT GOOD MANAGEMENT SHOULD.

The IAA obviously dont.

So stoogelark why dont you ask about the IAA HR director who has formerly retired,taken his 500,000 TAX FREE lump sum plus about 200,000 a year for the rest of his life, yet re-hired himself into HIS vacant position???? Banana republic management??
The fact that the the current and previous director of HR(same guy remember) doesnt even know what his controllers earn but just throws out any number he can think of,and yet you still choose to believe it says everything.

Solidarity wins everytime, and once again well done to the 14 who took the hit, who stood up for what is right and fair and who inspired our victory. Thank you
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 22:55
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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"Provide LINK "

As your capacity to use new technology is beyond your ability there is little point in me offering you direction in that area.

If I as a member of the general public had my way, and mark my words the public will one day soon, we'd fire you all as you represent a hinderance to the economic recovery of a country you care little for.

I am a self starter, an entrepeneur and I earn more than you so it isn't sour grapes.

You are a small group of over paid self interested public servants and your actions have been abysmal and irresponsible. Your pathetic whinging and arrogant easy living actions have not gone unnoticed by the public. You can't have unrestrained greed in a civilised society. It is detrimental to us all and in the end you'll have society to answer to.

Out.
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Old 23rd Jan 2010, 23:22
  #133 (permalink)  

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"Provide LINK "

As your capacity to use new technology is beyond your ability there is little point in me offering you direction in that area
No, the real reason is probably because the only link is within your brain. That low cost Nigerian neuro-surgery wasn't such a good idea was it?

I am a self starter, an entrepeneur
Tut, tut, Mr. O'Leary, masturbation is frowned upon in the Bible. BTW it's entrepreneur

we'd fire you all
Better make sure there are better rail links to Belfast then as there won't be much SAFE aviation being committed in Irish Airspace
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Old 24th Jan 2010, 01:12
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Firstly, some excellent posts here from people, namely Dick N Cider, DirtyPierre, thorisgod, hangten, bankrupttick, red barchetta, hardcrud... well pretty much everyone except snr. lark!

Mr. lark, if you fired us all as you would so love to do, it would prove an even bigger hinderance to the economic recovery of this country. Who would replace us? The army's 6 controllers in Baldonnel? This isn't Reagan-era America with a surplus of military personnel. As already stated here, there is a global shortage of controllers, so like it or not we are a valuable commodity and firing all 300 of us would get you and this banana republic nowhere.

Anyway, to reiterate what was posted in The second effort is pure spin… 2010 Irish ATC dispute – get the facts , this mysterious 'new sytem tool' in the heart of the dispute consists of the following not-yet-fully-tested technology ,which I think you will agree hardly constitutes so-called 'normal ongoing change':

1) COOPANS (Cooperation in the Procurement of Air Navigation Systems)
http://www.icao.int/inexses/Presenta...lm_COOPANS.pdf
Irish Aviation Authority - Austro Control joins COOPANS

2) Dual (Crossing) Runway Operations at Dublin airport. (16/34 & 10/28)

3) Point Merge EUROCONTROL - Point Merge: Improving and Harmonising Arrival Operations with Existing Technology

All three projects have a common goal: increased airspace capacity. Thus allowing controllers to handle more aircraft but potentially with more stress, as these systems have yet to be fully tested, specifically in their planned environments.

The theory is wonderful and the vast majority of us are all in favour of better systems allowing us to control more traffic and reap more profit for our ANSP and ultimately, in an ideal world, ourselves. But the practice may prove to be altogether different and may pose many new unforeseen problems.

Look at our current beloved Thales system, its like a child! It needs to be constantly spoon-fed with information updates in order for it to perform properly. More mouse-clicking, more windows to manage, more 'distractions' to prevent us from carrying out our core function - separating aircraft.

So our workload may well increase in the future, despite these 'better' technologies. And even more so if our 'cockpit' loses 50% of its workforce, with planned Single Person Sectors. 4 eyes and hands will always be better than 2... So, does all this not qualify as a good reason for our level of remuneration? I'll let you decide...
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Old 24th Jan 2010, 01:15
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sober Lark
As your capacity to use new technology is beyond your ability there is little point in me offering you direction in that area.
Darn.
Anybody else disappointed about that?
What an opportunity missed.

But seriously, Mr self-made entrepreneur, what on earth makes you think any direction you could offer regarding a technical and specialist job you have no knowledge concerning would be any use at all to those that do?
Believe me, any knowledge of how you might think ATC is carried out is totally irrelevant.

Since you are not even entitled to be posting in this forum, there is little point in anybody providing a link to satisfy (or fuel) your fantasies.
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Old 24th Jan 2010, 07:22
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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"Then, why are you the second highest paid (by a long shot) ATCO's in Europe? What do you have to do that is different from your less well paid conterparts in other countries?"

Can you or can you not provide a link to support that statement. Yes or No.
Simple question.
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Old 24th Jan 2010, 09:57
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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The reason he can't provide a link is that it is actually not true.

Good post Hangten but:

1. A new system tool was introduced which meant that a single tactical controller is now on a position which was previously manned by two - a planner and a tactical. This is akin to improving an aircraft FMS and decreeing that that a First Officer is now not required on the flight deck. This change was not discussed but was enforced. 15 controllers refused to work on grounds of safety and were suspended without pay. This appears to me to be entirely unacceptable and the controllers have my full support.
The Single Person Operations project was actually cancelled by the IAA because of the downturn in traffic. This dispute was actually about other projects that are only at either the research and development stage or the training stage. This is not, as you would think if you believed everything you read on the news, about ATC not cooperating with new technology that has already been introduced at the coal face.

If I as a member of the general public had my way, and mark my words the public will one day soon, we'd fire you all as you represent a hinderance to the economic recovery of a country you care little for.
If you are in fact just a member of the general public, then you are getting all your facts from RTE or the IAA spin doctors. Oh and hindrance is spelt like this not hinderance, try using a spell checker!

You are a small group of over paid self interested public servants and your actions have been abysmal and irresponsible. Your pathetic whinging and arrogant easy living actions have not gone unnoticed by the public. You can't have unrestrained greed in a civilised society. It is detrimental to us all and in the end you'll have society to answer to.
MOL saying that we are public servants over and over does not actually make it true. We are employees of a profit making semi-state company that has enough money to pay its CEO an incredible amount of money and also enough money to move into the Irish Times building in town at an increased cost to the company because of the amount of overpaid managers they have on their books.

Time to ignore the troll
west atc is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2010, 09:58
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Errr... I think he's gone for his x-factor audition.
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Old 24th Jan 2010, 12:20
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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super lurk

was it something we said????

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Old 24th Jan 2010, 13:14
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Press release

The Mail on Sunday lifted content from a controllers FaceBook page and printed it this morning. The person concerned is very upset.

STAY OFF this forum and do not post anything the press can twist on other social networks, check your privacy settings and delete anything you think the press might use.

I said before that Mgmt. and the press were watching, now we know. Keep the (deserved ) insults for private conversation and don't answer private mails unless you know or check the identity of the persons involved.
V
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